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Let's talk 'Neutrois'

Started by Jamie D, January 05, 2014, 01:53:49 AM

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Jamie D

Neutrois

What is Neutrois?

Neutrois is a non-binary gender identity that falls under the genderqueer or transgender umbrellas.

Definitions

There is no one definition of Neutrois, since each person that self-identifies as such experiences their gender differently. The most common ones are:

    Neutral-gender
    Null-gender
    Neither male nor female
    Genderless
    Agender


I know we have a few members here who identify in this realm.  I'd like to know and understand more.  Anyone up to explaining to a lunkhead like me?
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eli77

Hard to explain a negative... You know that thing inside you that tells you whether you are a dude or lady or something else? I don't have it. In fact I didn't even believe in it until I learned on these forums that other people feel super strongly that it exists. Before that I kind of assumed that everyone just sort of played along with the mass delusion that is gender. But these days I accept that I'm just not much like most folks. That just because I can't feel it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

I find gender very... uncomfortable. And confusing. And weird. I don't really get what it is, what is constructed, what is innate. I tend to be a pretty emotion-driven creature much of the time. I like logic, I like information, I like figuring things out. But at a core level I trust my feels. And it's hard to really relate to a thing I can't feel at all. It makes me shy away from overt gender markers as a kind of self-defense. Not because I don't find certain things interesting or attractive, but I really don't want to participate in a system that I can't really get.

It's like if you imagine a spectrum of gender... I'm on the outside looking at the spectrum. I wouldn't say I identify as neutrois. I don't really identify as anything. Can describe me as agender if you like, but it isn't an identity. It just means "lacking gender."

Maybe if you had more specific questions, Jamie?
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Jamie D

The subject of the topic stemmed from a discussion in another topic on this board.

You know, many people who come here to Susan's Place relate how they recognized their dysphoria quite young.  Often in their earliest memories.  That is foreign to me.

In my case, it is somewhat different.  I don't think I had any concept of gender until I was hitting puberty.  In retrospect, I look at some of my behaviors as a pre-teen, and the disconnect seems obvious.  Even now, though, my concept of gender is related more to behaviors than to any strong innate sense.

That is why I see myself as sort of genderfluid, drifting out there in the gender sea which ever way the tides of emotion and circumstance take me.  I describe myself with the labels "bigender" and "bisexual," but those are even inadequate.  I think we have others here who have similar experiences.

Thank you for the response.  I was about to delete the topic as just another Jamie mindf**k.
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Kaelin

A social problem exceedingly obvious to gender non-conforming individuals is that society has a lot of exaggerated, distorted, and fabricated ideas of what it means to be a man or a woman.  Gender stereotypes give people a false sense of how people feel, what their talents are, and what they are capable of doing.  Even more, gender roles can dictate what people are supposed to like, want, and do.  It's all very structured, and as trendy as it can be at times to defy it, the prevailing attitudes still favor the gender-typed trends.  The conclusion we draw, nevertheless, is that this structure is wrong.

Yet saying society gets gender wrong doesn't answer the question we're interested in: what, then, is gender?  How does someone know they're male or female (or something else) without having to rely on stereotyped anecdotes?  Is this sort of thing on a continuum from one to the other, or might be male and female be different variables on a two-dimensional grid (allowing for someone to be both highly-male and highly-female simultaneously, and likewise low for each simultaneously).  Might the idea of an overreaching gender be an illusion, with people simply needs/preferring/feeling male/female-associated characteristics as they believe is appropriate for them?  The idea of being one or the other may work well enough if you can be "close enough" to a particular gender in society's eyes, but that attitude may not be satisfying to someone who sees deep flaws in how society handles gender and (like any good academic) wants to find a much stronger model before applying a gender label even to themselves.

Many people are able to declare themselves as genderless, neutral gender, or at least neither male nor female, and neutrois seems to cover those identities.  Some people may not feel comfortable firmly declaring such identities, but they're not right with male or female either.  As someone who is relatively agnostic about gender, I sort of look to my agnosticism about religion for a sense of what it means.  To me, it means one's identity is tied to the other factors in their lives.   A agnostic (for religion) typically does not dwell on religious dogma or mysteries because they've regarded them as unconvincing, so they instead look for meaning in life somewhere else.  If gender does not confer meaning with a genderless person, they may look at how gender affects life, but it's not the thing that guides their life actions except when society is being a jerk about it (as would a agnostic when it comes to religion).  Rather than being a man or a woman or whatnot, the person is being themselves.
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Space Pirate

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 09, 2014, 09:10:14 AM
Hard to explain a negative... You know that thing inside you that tells you whether you are a dude or lady or something else? I don't have it. In fact I didn't even believe in it until I learned on these forums that other people feel super strongly that it exists. Before that I kind of assumed that everyone just sort of played along with the mass delusion that is gender. But these days I accept that I'm just not much like most folks. That just because I can't feel it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

I find gender very... uncomfortable. And confusing. And weird. I don't really get what it is, what is constructed, what is innate. I tend to be a pretty emotion-driven creature much of the time. I like logic, I like information, I like figuring things out. But at a core level I trust my feels. And it's hard to really relate to a thing I can't feel at all. It makes me shy away from overt gender markers as a kind of self-defense. Not because I don't find certain things interesting or attractive, but I really don't want to participate in a system that I can't really get.

It's like if you imagine a spectrum of gender... I'm on the outside looking at the spectrum. I wouldn't say I identify as neutrois. I don't really identify as anything. Can describe me as agender if you like, but it isn't an identity. It just means "lacking gender."

I think this pretty much nails it for me.  I can't even perceive it.  When I do express any kind of "gendered" expression (orgasms, for example), it's both male and female.  In the past, often without my knowledge, I'd slide between perceiving myself along the binary, back before I realized androgyne was a thing, but now increasingly I just see myself as...me, and not any one thing.  I got called a ->-bleeped-<-got a *lot* growing up and so I have a very hard time convincing myself that being what I am has any value, which leads to me unconsciously trying to gender myself again and that leads back to disaster.  It extends to my sexual orientation too.  I can't really perceive someone else's gender on some base level.

So I dunno.  I think at a certain point I just *stopped* trying to explain it to myself and simply went with whatever felt right in the moment.  It's pretty much impossible to explain it any further.
Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane.

-Philip K Dick
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