I was just wondering since there's been so much discussion of whether transitioners   blend in with out being read .  What do you think the percentage  of those who transition are able to do so unnoticed by any one else compared to those who may get a quizzical look. Does it really matter in the scheme of things any way, because if you need to do it, you need to do it no matter what.

Hi stephaniec,

With respects to your question regarding percentages, from my experience I'm inclined to think about 5% or less. Blending in, comes from within. If your gender is not expressed from within, irrespective of what you do externally doesn't work.

And yes it does matter. It matters a great deal with regard to creating the necessary self respect, self confidence needed to express yourself completely, with integrity.

Huggs
Catherine

Quote from: stephaniec on January 08, 2014, 10:25:11 AM
I was just wondering since there's been so much discussion of whether transitioners   blend in with out being read .  What do you think the percentage  of those who transition are able to do so unnoticed by any one else compared to those who may get a quizzical look. Does it really matter in the scheme of things any way, because if you need to do it, you need to do it no matter what.

I'm pretty sure that you could chart it as an inversely quadratic function in three dimensions of age, income, and passability with passability increasing with age and income but being almost completely passable before 16 and almost impossible to pass by 60 without major surgery. There are certainly deviations (some 20 year olds are so masculinized that they pretty much *have* to get FFS) but as a general rule, a 25 year old probably has about a 40% or greater chance of passing without issue while a 50 year old has about a 5% chance before FFS.

This is all raw physicality, not taking into account body language and mannerisms.

All that said, I'm pretty sure that if I weren't seamless in the world, I'd be a miserable sot all the time and never leave the house. My ability to be accepted for who I feel I truly am is invaluable to me and probably one of the most precious experiential things I can point to.

idk? i know i never have a problem

As one of the other posters pointed out its a combination of factors including age, finances and genetics. Having lots of money really helps and the surgery they can do now is amazing. But you need the basic body to be somewhere in the female range. Age is more variable. It works best (I think) for the very young and also for the very old. Harder for those in the middle.

Of course I am talking about looking female, not feminine or beautiful. Those two qualities are much more rare and lots of cis females dont have them.

Where I live there are not many trans women that I am aware of. Which is great for me since most people don't know I am trans to look at me. However there are tons of them In Toronto. Then again that being said if they don't know what to look for then you have a better chance just blending in. And because i'm so tall I have seen other tall cis women in my city so thats also not a problem.

I'd recommend going to a shopping mall, just sitting, and looking at women going by.

One thing becomes immensely apparent - the assumption that age must mean surgery actually goes down. I cannot tell you how many women who look 50+ also have some masculine facial features. As menopause kicks in, there are minor changes there too.

Now, having said that, many of those women are not what would be considered beautiful or particularly pretty anymore. But that's age and loss of hormones at work. And this is where FFS can help scads for an older trans woman. In some cases, it can take an older trans woman from being passable to being a beautiful older woman. In more cases, it can take an older woman who cannot pass into one who can.

I will also state two other things - most trans women do not need FFS, but they would benefit from FFS. I plan to do so myself despite passing easily at my age (still part time) and despite friends insisting I look "fine". I tell them it's as much for my own psychological peace of mind as anything else and they say they then understand that.

The second point is that the vast majority of people out there are not looking at every passing human being asking, "Is she trans? Is she? Is she?" Get that out of your mind! If your appearance, mannerisms, dress, and voice all come close to conforming for female norms wherever you live, you are likely to pass just fine. People trigger when something glaring leaps out at them, and I mean glaring, like a good looking transwoman who opens her mouth and speaks in a rumbling baritone.

To Carrie Liz, yes I've seen numbers that 1 in 500 or so are likely to be trans. But I've also seen reasonable estimates that only about 15-20% of those actually transition, for whatever reason. So the actual number on the street is probably closer to 1 in 2500 or 1 in 3000. So not quite as likely as you said but yes, if you work in a metropolitan area and go for a walk at lunch time, odds are pretty good that you walked right past a transwoman somewhere.

The one in 500 number is highly debatable no matter what Lynn Conway thinks. In any case, not all transition, which would also be something interesting to know but hard to determine.

Truth is, people dont walk around trying to figure out who is trans and who isnt. Thats why casually passing isnt all that hard. When things get more personal a thousand little things give people away. Im certain I could pick out a trans woman 90% plus of the time if they were lined up in a random group of females. Little things for the most beautiful, almost none of us have the exact correct proportions of females, not even surgery can give you that. But that doesnt mean we arent often beautiful in our own way, just not precisely in the same way as those born with a female body.

You know, I think this may be the most unhelpful, unsupportive thread I have seen on here in a long time.

Rosie

All I know is I want to give every transperson I see a giant supportive hug.

I know I can't, though. Their privacy matters too.

I dont find anything objectionable in this thread. No one is being attacked personally and this matter of passing is important. For some of us it is THE most important. Its no just about privacy or comfort, depending on where you live it can be about safety. I would also say that most of the comments are fairly accurate and fair. Unfortunately our real lives arent always easy.

I don't know how many blend in.  I would guess a minority of transwomen.  I would guess a higher number if transmen.  I'm not sure how it would work for most other identities.

But what I do know is that there are real advantages and privileges that come from passing well.  I think that those who do not pass well are forced to show a lot of courage because of the s*** that other people must throw at them in ways large and small.  I think those people in that non-passing situation show much more courage in their day-to-day lives than those who pass very well. 

Those who pass well should remember that they do so by virtue of pure, dumb luck.  Those who don't pass should be embraced without judgment, shame, elitism, or put downs. 

Quote from: stephaniec on January 08, 2014, 10:25:11 AM
I was just wondering since there's been so much discussion of whether transitioners   blend in with out being read .  What do you think the percentage  of those who transition are able to do so unnoticed by any one else compared to those who may get a quizzical look. Does it really matter in the scheme of things any way, because if you need to do it, you need to do it no matter what.

As far as your second question, passing is very important. Even if you do not care, I am sure that being constantly hackle and ogled gets old soon!

Phoenix - No. That is just plain wrong. Passing well is not just pure dumb luck. Thats not nice at all but worse it is incorrect.

Now Im obviously MTF so thats all I can comment on.

There is definetly an element of luck, or i prefer to say good genetics, no question. There is also an element of money, that can be luck or the result of lots of hard work.

But I WORKED HARD, really hard to pass. Hundreds of hours practicing my voice, loosing over 120 pounds, learning how to dress, how to put on make up and a hundred other things. None of that was luck or "dumb" it was pure old fashioned hard work and stubborn determination. If you think loosing 120 pounds and somehow getting anorexic over it is lucky, then you have a strange idea as to what luck is.

Your comment was really unfair and dismissive of those who put immense amounts of time and energy into perfecting their transition. Im mortgaging my house to go to Thailand, the house I worked a lifetime for to finish everything. Worked two jobs a lot of my life. That wasnt lucky either.

If you are one of those who cannot pass or struggles with it through no fault of your mine, you have my geuine sympathy. I know how it feels to stand out. But that does not make it right to be dismissive of others hard work.

Kia Ora,

I think Phoenix makes a valid point....Some of us trans-people are 'naturally' androgynous with features(size, build, bone structure etc) and mannerisms and have no need for expensive surgical procedures-HRT alone seems to do the trick, blending in is done without any real effort, hence "Just dumb luck" or blessed by Mother Nature...

Some, as Amber pointed out, do have to 'work at it' to achieve the desired/same results...

I may not know the percentage of seamless blenders there are, but I do know of two fool-proof ways (running of the gauntlet) of testing ones blendability :

1) Small innocent, honest, children (they say it as they see it)

2) A gaggle of gossiping trans-women (the most highly trained trans-scanners on the planet)   

If one can survive both runs, (more than once) then I'd say you're home scot free...(Been put through the blender)   

Metta Zenda  

First of all, Amber, nothing I said was an attack on you.  I apologize if it came off as me attacking you somehow. 

Now on to other things . . . .

I am one of those people that passes well enough (as female) that I actually carry around documentation to prove that I'm trans*.  I've been clocked as a cisgender ally enough times at trans* events that it has become a problem for me in my work as a trans* community organizer.  Suffice to say that when it comes to being able to pass, at this point in my life I am very lucky indeed (things that help me now have caused me problems in the past).  I did not pass as male nearly as well. 

But a person who is lucky in other ways can be unlucky in others.  For example, I used to work as a lawyer for a solid six figure salary plus five figure bonuses handling complex commercial work at one of the most prestigious and well known law firms in my part of the country.  I lost that job for transitioning.  I've now been out of work for long enough that it appears my career most likely is toast and I'm in danger of becoming homeless.  It's certainly not for lack of effort on my part and I am extremely well qualified.  So I can only say I'm pretty darn unlucky in my work. 

As for you, it sounds like you are the beneficiary of quite a bit of luck.  For example, you have the home to mortgage to pay for surgeries and the travel to Thailand to get them.  You had to work very hard at two jobs to gather resources that you're now using, but I'm guessing from what you say that you didn't go through the job loss and unemployment/underemployment that plagues so many in our community.  The majority of trans* people I know do not have those kinds of resources available.  All the statistics I know of indicate that most trans* people do without many (and often any) surgeries due to lack of resources.  You're lucky to not be one of those people.  I know plenty of trans* people who lose lots of weight! but their body structure is still just not passable.  It sounds like you are not one of those people.  You were lucky to have a body structure that made that work.

I could go on, but the point here is that I think being lucky means that your goal is achievable.  It doesn't mean that achieving it is easy.  In the case of passing, you are lucky because you had what you needed biologically and economically to, with work, get where you wanted to go.  In no way am I diminishing the value of your hard work or anyone else.

Although getting where you want to be has been hard for you, I know a great many trans* people who would love to switch places with you.  At this point I have easily met and worked with hundreds of trans* people and probably more like thousands.  Many find that no matter how hard they work, no matter how much money they spend, and no matter what they try, they still cannot achieve their passing goals. 

In short, in my world:
Being able to achieve your passing goals, even if it takes a lot of work = lucky
Being able to achieve your passing goals without little or know effort = the extremes of good luck
Finding you cannot achieve your passing goals no matter what you do = unlucky

Phoenix

Your revised post is a lot more palatable and fair. I never forget that I had good fortune in many ways and I never cease to have sympathy for those with less so. I just wanted to point out that while I had some material to work with things did not exactly come easy for me and there was nothing dumb about it. I understand your frustration though.

On money. Yes I have more than some. But I resigned my job with the family business, gave up an income of mid six figures and by telling my family lost an inheritance - was disowned by my family worth millions. So far as my house is concerned, 20 years ago it was a vacant lot, I built it with the work of my own hands - all of it - including much of the furniture. It was a labor of love. Now I am mortgagig it to pay for surgery. I worked weekeds and holidays for most of two decades to build it so I am fortumate, but it was fortune bought at a very high cost.

You have my sympathy. I would never wish for anyone to struggle. But you also seem to have a small chip on your shoulder. Im not the problem, the problem is the cis world we live in who refuse to recognise your talents and abilities just because of gender identity.

What you said was hurtful. It was not a personal attack but in real life some are more fortunate than others and some work hard to take advantage of it. I do have sympathy for you because some work hard and do not do well. If I could change that, I would, but I cant.

Oh yes, by your formula I am lucky. I try to give back when I can, I have given shelter to people in trouble and more than once small sums of money. I volunteer two days a week at a shelter for trans women. If I werent so shy and private I would be a more public advocate but this is further complicated by my very poor health, having nearly died twice in the last 5 years, once from cancer and once from a thrombosis caused by the hormones I took to transition.

I still consider myself lucky though.

Quote from: amber1964 on January 09, 2014, 01:56:53 AM
Oh yes, by your formula I am lucky. I try to give back when I can, I have given shelter to people in trouble and more than once small sums of money. I volunteer two days a week at a shelter for trans women. If I werent so shy and private I would be a more public advocate but this is further complicated by my very poor health, having nearly died twice in the last 5 years, once from cancer and once from a thrombosis caused by the hormones I took to transition.

I still consider myself lucky though.

And I say with all sincerity that I wish you well and hope the day comes where all of us are able to live with dignity and reasonable access to the life saving surgeries we need. I dont expect to live to see it though.

I agree with Liz Marie.

Most people aren't walking around thinking certain woman they see are trans. Most people will tell you they've never met anyone who was trans. And we all know that's laughable. If your not hard or not very feminine looking than chances are no one's paying you any mind. For me it's hard to say because so many woman have perfected their post transition life so well it's hard for other trans woman to be sure either.

I think it's waaaaay easier for transmen to pass. People see facial hair and hear a deep voice and they don't even blink. Also you rarely even hear anything about them in the media besides Chaz Bono. The idea of a transman doesn't cross most peoples minds which helps them to pass even more. My former supervisor was a transman and his guy friend was so passable I was shocked when he told me. Some people are so good that as I said it get's hard for us to tell sometimes. We know what to look for but most of society doesn't. So it's really hard to say.