Now before anyone accuses me of trolling, i truly assure you I am not. As someone raised in a republican family, respects the constitution and all of it's amendments, as they are written, there is one thing i really can't understand.

That is, why do most "liberals" and democrats seem to hate firearms and want to violate the second amendment by limiting what you can own?

An example of this, i live in Ohio....we don't have laws banning firearms because they look like a fully automatic rifle carried by our military. I can own a short barreled rifle/shotgun (sbr/sbs) i can own a suppressor (aka can, scilencer etc.) and my magazines can hold 30 rounds. Obviously due to federal laws some of what i mentioned is controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA) and requires another federal background check, but also requires fingerprinting and a $200 tax stamp.

Look to other states that are heavily democrat controlled such as California and New York and basically everything i mentioned is illegal. Yes i understand that in a Constitutional Republic such as the US a state can set its own laws as long as they do not violate the laws set forth in that countries Constitution.

Before anyone suggests tho that gun control, especially to the point of the two states i mentioned (the strictes in the US) prevents crime and saves lives, i would like to point out that they still have the highest amount of crime per capita in the US.

So i ask, why hate guns so much? Why make it harder for law abiding citizens to protect there lives or there property? Why, make it harder for someone to enjoy a shooting sport such as 3 gun, or classed long range shooting?

Once again not trolling, just hoping to start a friendly convo to help me better understand where the other side of the democrat/republican coin comes from since this is such a big issue here in the country....to the point i can barely find ammo at a decent price.

Quote from: kariann330 on January 11, 2014, 12:46:23 AM
why do most "liberals" and democrats seem to hate firearms...

...hoping to start a friendly convo.

Good luck with that.

I don't "hate" guns. I think there's too many stories of triggerhappy fools who just shoot whoever walks uninvited into their house, whether they're a drunk teen or some old person with dementia, or kids shooting up schools, whatever. The gun violence is extremely high in the U.S., more so than other developed countries, and statistics will tell you that people in poor, urban areas are more supportive of gun control. (because they hear that shizz going off all the time) Urban cities in general, even big cities in Texas, tend to be more liberal than smaller towns in the state. So, yes. I do not think people should just be allowed to buy any gun unregistered, and automatics should never be sold. And I don't hunt or know how to use one anyway so I don't care about them as much as others do, and frankly I don't see why people so passionate about it.

But guns have saved innocent lives too. I'm sure you've heard of the 18 year old mother who killed her would-be attackers when they broke into her home?

Just tell that to the parents of Sandy Hook!!

and you can say it was the person and not the gun all you want.....but the fact is during this same time period of the Sandy Hook shooting there was a man in China that was mentally unstable and went to a school armed with a knife...he injured multiple children around the same age but none died.......now give that man a ak47 or whatever the F*** they're called and tell me the outcome then

hmmmm Sandy Hook!!!!

Please tell me WHY these type guns are needed.....and if its for sport then keep them where you do your "sport"

Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2014, 01:15:41 AM
Just tell that to the parents of Sandy Hook!!

and you can say it was the person and not the gun all you want.....but the fact is during this same time period of the Sandy Hook shooting there was a man in China that was mentally unstable and went to a school armed with a knife...he injured multiple children around the same age but none died.......now give that man a ak47 or whatever the F*** they're called and tell me the outcome then

hmmmm Sandy Hook!!!!

Please tell me WHY these type guns are needed.....and if its for sport then keep them where you do your "sport"

Ok so since you brought that up, a good point btw, ill counter with Columbine, all firearms used were compliant with federal laws at the time, the main difference is people reloaded more often....every 10 rounds with rifles and 5 rounds with shotguns...the AWB did not save any lives at all then and won't change anything today.

To the part of "leave them at the range" the best answer to that is because federal law allows us to use them to protect our homes/lives. A prime example of this, i recently had someone break into my apartment. His exact words were "gimme tha money and any scripts you got and no one gets hurt". My reaction was to act as if i was gonna comply, but once i grabbed and chambered a round in my AR15, that "hard thug" became a crying baby begging me to call the cops and not shoot....not even a round fired, and im safe and he is in jail awaiting trial for breaking and entering and strong arm robbery.

That is why i have them in my home vs at a club.

I don't feel most democrats hate guns. I'm pretty sure both my parents were democrats, I know my mom was, at least until Obama got into office, now she's republican.   

But we had guns all over the house when we were growing up. I keep all my guns locked in a gun cabinet now and have trigger locks. I don't have them for burglars, using a golf club on these clowns would seem much more satisfying (and I need to practice my drive, my slice is terrible these days). I have my guns for when global warming causes the world to freeze over, I'll need them for protection and hunting for food. 

The following video is one of my all time favorites, especially her very last line, she's awesome...

Does the US have an abnormally high number of break ins compared to the UK or something then?  In the UK most people don't have guns, see the need for guns, a good deal of firearms are prohibited, and you need a license to own anything else stronger than an air rifle producing more than 12 foot pounds of energy.  A lot of people think that Americans are crazy due to the amount of guns floating around and the apparent ease you can access them (I don't know how easy it really is, but to us it appears to be).

I don't know anyone who has needed to have a gun in their house to defend themselves, and the only people I do know who have firearm licenses are those who regularly go hunting and are from rich families with a tradition of it, farmers, and the unusual case of a man who has military clearance to have anything he's capable of disarming (at one point he was very close to buying a WWII V2 bomb but someone beat him to it.  They live in his garage.)  No one has guns for their own protection.

The UK has one of the lowest rates of gun crime, and it seems to us that having less guns floating around, licensed or not, is a good thing.  If the weapons simply aren't there then they can't fall into the hands of criminals and cause injury to anyone.

Quote from: kariann330 on January 11, 2014, 12:46:23 AM
Before anyone suggests tho that gun control, especially to the point of the two states i mentioned (the strictes in the US) [California and New York] prevents crime and saves lives, i would like to point out that they still have the highest amount of crime per capita in the US.

^source?

According to http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank21.html, here is top 23 from 2006

Tennessee (1st 0.7% chance)
Nevada
Florida
Louisiana
Alaska
Delaware
Maryland
New Mexico
Michigan
Arkansas
Missouri
Illinois
California
Texas
Arizona
Oklahoma
North Carolina
Georgia
Massachusetts
Pennsylvania
New York (23rd 0.43% chance)

I'm from Ohio too, we're 28th, with a 0.35% chance

Safest states:

Maine (50th 0.12% chance)
North Dakota
Vermont
New Hampshire
South Dakota
Utah
Rhode Island
Wyoming (44th  0.24%)

Like I said earlier, I'm also from Ohio, I am more liberal minded. I've got plenty of friends with tons of big guns, and one friend's dad was featured on doomsday preppers. Lol I don't hate guns, but I avoid them like the plague.

I'll try to explain how I see, it. Not trying to argue, just trying to give u a peek inside my head so you can understand.

My friends who love and collect guns are compensating for the fact that they have no control over their lives. The guns makes them feel secure and safe. Many of them do not trust "the government" and feel that if "stuff went down," that they would have their gun and be a hero/survive. I'm not joking or making this up, some even believe in zombie apocolypse, lol.

For me, if "stuff goes down," the way we fight back is with numbers, not with guns. I'd rather help educate someone on the injustices that go on day to day, and help cause change through peace. For me, now is the time to fight, but guns aren't the best tool.

I am an urban farmer. I can't grow my food sustainably and sell it to local businesses who want cheap produce, only to the fancy ones who cater to people will pay for local, organic produce. Why? Because large scale "farms" out west don't pay the migrant workers a fair wage, because large scale "farms" receive tons of dollars in subsidies to grow food using tractors, pesticides, inorganic fertilizers and GMO seed.

To fight that problem, a gun will do me nada. So as a liberal, i guess my reason for not caring about guns is that I don't see them as an answer to any of the "problems" that I see. Is there a concrete problem we face currently that guns can help? If one argues that the people need guns to keep the government in check, well, shouldn't we also have tanks and anti aircraft tools?

To sum up my thinking. Why are we here? My answer: to love each other and learn from each other, and to share with each other the beauty we are surrounded by. We are humans, which as far as I've read/seen is just another type of great ape. Do we want to be like militaristic, infanticide practicing chimps or would we rather be like the bonobos. Do we want to live in a world of limits or one of surpluses. Going back to guns, Ghandi's salt march, how did he fight the british soldiers? With numbers. No voilence, just numbers and he won.

I hope my post doesn't seem argumentative, I do propose some hypothetical questions not meant to be answered, just meant to help you think like a liberal would.

Cheers!

I think the idea of owning a gun to protect myself is a fantasy. If something happened where I needed to defend myself with the weapon, I'm more likely to forget to turn the safety off or shoot myself in the foot or miss or hit an innocent than get the "bad guy".

I've thought about taking classes to get a concealed carry permit to help me understand why some people really need to own guns, but haven't followed through as yet.

Right now, from being a geek my whole life, I know all about people brimming with disproportional self confidence to actual talent. So that save the day reason for weapon ownership, doesn't fly with me cause by an average distribution most people will actually be around an average shot.

I'm a vegetarian for animal compassion reasons and yet I can admit this: I do think hunting is a fine use for a rifle.

Just some of my thoughts.

As a liberal, I don't hate guns. There's a rifle in my house, and I'll probably get a Glock once I start working full time again.

My problem with just having almost free reign of guns is for safety reasons:

I have an undergrad degree in law enforcement, and we learned that many people get killed by their own guns. Quite a bit of people buy a gun for self protection, but don't actually really know how to use it. They might shoot it once or twice, and think they'll be fine when a burgular comes in their home at 3 am when they're fast asleep.

I was a licensed armed security officer down in FL, and every year I had to have so many hours of shooting in down at a range, and every 2 years I'd have to go and take a test at an open range to show that I could shoot in a variety of situations. I think this should be mandatory of all gun owners, whether they're in security or private citizens. A gun isn't a toy, it should be taken more seriously than other purchases. I take time out of my life every 5 years so so to go down to the DMV and get my eyes checked and picture updated in order to keep my driver's license, so it shouldn't be an unreasonable requirement to go and show that  you know how to use a gun every few years in order to keep a gun license. (I think people should be licensed to have a gun in all states.)

I also think background checks should be done for all states. While I am aware some of our recent mass shooters would've been able to get guns anyways, background checks just make sense to me. I don't really understand how people can just walk into a gun fair and leave with a gun the same day. The tricky issue here though is third party pur->-bleeped-<-s (I buy a gun from a shop, get a background check done, and then go and sell it to an acquaintance a few years later over my kitchen table), it'd be really hard to regulate background checks without a registry. A registry would be expensive and hard to implement, and would meet a lot of opposition. However, we should still do background checks for the initial purchases at least.

Quote from: lxndr on January 11, 2014, 06:33:12 AM
Does the US have an abnormally high number of break ins compared to the UK or something then?  In the UK most people don't have guns, see the need for guns, a good deal of firearms are prohibited, and you need a license to own anything else stronger than an air rifle producing more than 12 foot pounds of energy.  A lot of people think that Americans are crazy due to the amount of guns floating around and the apparent ease you can access them (I don't know how easy it really is, but to us it appears to be).

I don't know anyone who has needed to have a gun in their house to defend themselves, and the only people I do know who have firearm licenses are those who regularly go hunting and are from rich families with a tradition of it, farmers, and the unusual case of a man who has military clearance to have anything he's capable of disarming (at one point he was very close to buying a WWII V2 bomb but someone beat him to it.  They live in his garage.)  No one has guns for their own protection.

The UK has one of the lowest rates of gun crime, and it seems to us that having less guns floating around, licensed or not, is a good thing.  If the weapons simply aren't there then they can't fall into the hands of criminals and cause injury to anyone.

A quick google search brings me to this: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jun/24/blog-posting/social-media-post-says-uk-has-far-higher-violent-c/
From what I've heard, part of the reason why we love guns so much in USA is because of our history. Guns have played a large role in our lives since the moment the first colonist arrived, they were a huge deal in the Western expansion, they were used by gangsters in the '30s which were seen by heroic by some (and today). While people love guns for reasons like sports, self protection, etc. but there's also the love for a nostalgic reason.

Quote from: lxndr on January 11, 2014, 06:33:12 AM
Does the US have an abnormally high number of break ins compared to the UK or something then?  In the UK most people don't have guns, see the need for guns, a good deal of firearms are prohibited, and you need a license to own anything else stronger than an air rifle producing more than 12 foot pounds of energy.  A lot of people think that Americans are crazy due to the amount of guns floating around and the apparent ease you can access them (I don't know how easy it really is, but to us it appears to be).

It really depends on the state your in. Here in Ohio i can go to a gun shop, pick out my gun, then fill out a form. That form is then submitted to the FBI either by phone or internet. If my name and social security number isn't in there system, i hand over my money and walk out. In all it takes about 25-30 min. Some states have a 3 day waiting period. Or you can do what I did for my first gun at 18, and buy one from a family member, no background check needed. Finally you can go to a gun show and buy your gun. There isn't a background check done but 9 times out of 10, you will pay an extra $200-$400 for the same gun compared to buying it at a shop.

While I do hate guns, I don't desire to enforce my personal view onto others.  The second amendment does provide you your right to arms and that should be respected. However, I don't like guns around me and don't ever want to own one.  They freak me out and I've seen the damage it can do.  And it's a symbol of violence and conflict which are two things I'm not a fan of.   That's just my personal view and hope that clears up why as a liberal I'm not a fan of guns.   Nonetheless, I really don't want to violate the second amendment or limit gun ownership.  Background checks, on the otherhand, I don't think are a bad idea.

Stats can be very misleading. These states have numerous different factors driving their crime statistics up to including the quality of their recording and reporting of crime statistics.

Well designed studies have shown gun laws restricting gun use of law abiding citizens increases crime and visa versa, pretty intuitive to me though.

I feel there should be strong safety requirements of gun owners and stronger penalties for negligence of misuse. No child should ever get access to a firearm and they still do. They're far more likely to be harmed in a car accident or your neighbor's swimming pool than by a gun accident, but more safety is needed.

It's more of a freedom issue for me, less about stopping criminals, but it can and does stop criminals.

I can see how people don't like the idea of so many guns in so many hands, it doesn't really bother me. My fear is guns in the hands of the wrong few. There's nothing we can do about that it appears except take these people out of society.

A thought that I have had about the USA and guns is that you have so many in circulation that repeal or changing the way people regard them is in practical terms nigh impossible so no real attempt is tried.

I sort of understand the principle behind the 2nd Amendment but wonder if in retrospect the people who lead that Amendment still would in light of the effect it has had on American society.

Just an Australian view where weapons are highly controlled.

I have no problem with guns as long as they shoot nerf darts.

Quote from: Cindy on January 11, 2014, 11:47:33 AM
A thought that I have had about the USA and guns is that you have so many in circulation that repeal or changing the way people regard them is in practical terms nigh impossible so no real attempt is tried.

I sort of understand the principle behind the 2nd Amendment but wonder if in retrospect the people who lead that Amendment still would in light of the effect it has had on American society.

Just an Australian view where weapons are highly controlled.

I believe yes, absolutely.

Crime is a big problem in the U.S. for sure. Australians were shocked when one of their own, Christopher Lane, was shot by three teenagers because they were 'bored'. Americans were equally shocked. What also shocked me was I travel thru the town he was murdered often, I know it well and it's a VERY safe rural town. But it's about 40 miles or so from a large city, the drug gang culture had spread out to this town and these kids became corrupted. We have such a huge problem in our culture today and I would be scared to death if all the guns were to all of a sudden disappear. We would be defenseless and yes, criminals would take advantage. There's no will to stop bad behavior here in the U.S. I don't understand this. I bet many people here in the U.S. aren't even aware of the 'knock-out game' spreading here in the U.S. It's vile and it's vicious. No one in authority wants to address it or lock these thugs away. How can a society ignore things like this and expect a good outcome?

Freedom requires responsibility and good citizenship. I want to remove bad citizens from our midst, not guns. I just wish we had the will to do so.

I've just had a thought.

Kariann, what is you shoot at to use so much ammo and guns?
This is just a question from someone who has never fired a gun. Pure interest.

Kia Ora,

I recently posted a Brazilian youtube prank clip in the humour section, and one commenter pointed out that if this had happened in the US it's quite possible the prankster could have been shot-which is quite a scary thought...

I also remember an American friend whom I worked with in pest management (here in NZ back in the 80s) who told me about the time back in the states when he was sent to do an apartment for cockroaches, he had been given access by the landlord and was told the tenant would not be home, so there he was all kitted out in his gear 'mask' etc , he enters the apartment thinking it was empty, only to be confronted by a guy was a gun pointing at him...He was lucky that the tenant didn't shot first and ask questions later...

When I think of the USA, I think of god and Guns (Guns with the capital "G")..... what a strange mixture...A country of extremes...Where kindness and compassion go hand in hand with paranoia and fear....

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Anatta on January 11, 2014, 02:19:55 PM
Kia Ora,

I recently posted a Brazilian youtube prank clip in the humour section, and one commenter pointed out that if this had happened in the US it's quite possible the prankster could have been shot-which is quite a scary thought...

I also remember an American friend whom I worked with in pest management (here in NZ back in the 80s) who told me about the time back in the states when he was sent to do an apartment for cockroaches, he had been given access by the landlord and was told the tenant would not be home, so there he was all kitted out in his gear 'mask' etc , he enters the apartment thinking it was empty, only to be confronted by a guy was a gun pointing at him...He was lucky that the tenant didn't shot first and ask questions later...

When I think of the USA, I think of god and Guns (Guns with the capital "G")..... what a strange mixture...A country of extremes...Where kindness and compassion go hand in hand with paranoia and fear....

Metta Zenda

Now that would've been funny!            (sorry, couldn't resist  )

When I think of the USA, I think of average people being free to do amazing things, it's why I love it. I agree, it's a country of extremes, but I like extreme.

Quote from: Nikko on January 11, 2014, 02:28:31 PM
Now that would've been funny!            (sorry, couldn't resist  )

When I think of the USA, I think of average people being free to do amazing things, it's why I love it. I agree, it's a country of extremes, but I like extreme.

Kia Ora Nikko,

I understand that America is 'meant' to be the land of the brave and the land of the free, and the melting pot of citizens (new and breed) have done amazing things, but how free are its citizens really, when compared to other Western countries ?

What is freedom ? Does it mean having a choice ? Or not having to choose ?

Metta Zenda