Lately I've seen several threads in which one person observes that trans* people (mostly transwomen) are not the same as cispeople (specifically ciswomen).  This usually seems to end up with one person giving a thumbs down on the reputation system to the one who said it.  And sometimes is followed by the person who got the thumbs down getting a thumbs down for giving them a thumbs down.

But can we just have an honest and frank conversation about the issue?  Perhaps we could agree to not give anyone thumbs up or thumbs down for the purposes of this one thread just so we can talk about it.  It's an issue that I, for one, find very troublesome to understand in my own life and I'd really like it if we could just talk through it.  It would really help me.  And it might help others too. 

I understand myself as a person who was basically socialized female, tried to absorb male socialization, have up, and that's how I found myself where I am.  This creates issues for me in the trans* community because people tend to assume I was born biologically male, socialized male, and the transitioned to female and tried very hard to conform to female social norms.  In reality, I would say the opposite is much more true and I do not understand myself that way at all.  I'm just reverting to how I learned to be when I was growing up. 

This affects me a main reason for me to give up trying to be a guy was the social stuff.  For example:  I went to a workplace happy hour that was in progress.  The first conversation group I came to was abut four guys talking about school hijinks that got into in their youth and other such mischief.  The conversation might as well have been Swahili.  I ended up standing there for probably 10-20 minutes.  I had absolutely nothing to contribute, no similar past experiences, and no clue what was going on.  I eventually wandered off.  The next conversation I joined was a pair of women colleagues who were talking about movies, books, and the like.  That conversation was easy.  We had the same tastes in movies.  We had read many of the same books.  But it was like being a guest.  There was this huge, gender based social divide where women lived on one side and men on another.  I couldn't fit with the men, so I couldn't live there.  But the women only saw me as a visitor so I couldn't live there.  I had no space for me to be at home.  This happened right as I was finally breaking and becoming unable to continue living in male mode and I cried about it for about 3 days.  But it was not the last time.  The same basic scenario repeated itself every time I was with a group of guys who wanted to talk about football, martial arts movies, their life histories, dating, politics, work, and so on.  It might as well have been Swahili.  I could not speak the language.  And I couldn't participate in conversations with guys as one of the guys and I could only be a guest and a foreigner, however welcome, among women.  So I had nowhere to be and ended up very alone as a result.

When I go and interact with trans* people, and especially transwomen, the same thing tends to repeat.  The male socialization and the learned behavior patterns show in transwomen.  And they seem to expect me to share that same socialization, same learned behaviors, and so on.  So the conversation turns to football, martial arts movies, life history, dating, politics, work, and so on.  And it might as well be Swahili.  And I'm again left unable to participate, say anything, or have anywhere else to belong.  Transmen tend to be closer to my wavelength, but there is a factor of "ewww, you're a girl, so you're an outsider."  And more than once, I have walked away from trans* spaces in tears.  There have been times I have almost literally had to get up and run. 

I am a trans* community organizer and advocate because no matter how you slice it, I'm affected by the same issues as anyone else on the trans* spectrum and I've gotten hurt badly because of them.  I also firmly believe that identities are real and valid and they should be respected.  And I believe in simple, basic fairness and kindness to others.  But I don't know how long I will keep it up because of this.  I have to be careful how much time I spend in trans* spaces and which ones I spend it in.  But ciswomen and their spaces are a radically different experience.  They just take me at face value and I fit right in.  The same is true with cismen.  They are a whole lot easier to deal with now that I'm no longer seen as one of them and the rules that apply to men interacting with other men do not apply to be. 

I won't get into the biological stuff here.  But there are differences in how transwomen vs ciswomen and transmen vs cismen interact with themselves and others.  Just because a transwoman identifies as a woman (and that identity should be respected) does not mean that all the learning she gained while living as male about how to be in the world suddenly vanishes into thin air when she transitions.  The same is true for transmen.  And that's true for me too.  I may have been socialized female, but I spent enough time trying to live as a man that I am a somewhat socially retarded woman in the world.  I know I act at least ten years younger than I am.

So this is me baring my soul a bit to talk about a difficult part of what my life is like.  It may or may not match up with others' experiences.  But I hope we can have an open, honest, and frank talk about it.  No one is dismissing or disrespecting anyone else's identity.  In fact, if life is a soup, then trans* people being different from cispeople is the spice that keeps that soup from being boring.  And maybe the biggest lesson of my experience is not that trans* people are different from cispeople! but that trans* people are different from one another.  No matter how you slice it, it's a good thing as long as we are willing to be honest and make room to take others at face value and give them space to just be who they are.

And can we please not get into the +1 and -1 with the reputation system?  No thumbs up or thumbs down in this thread?  Just let people talk without worrying whether people approve or disapprove of what they have to say?

Nice post.

I relate this to talking to people from different countries and culture.

People may have the same gender whatever but their life experience can be totally alien to one another. We should viva la difference, not fight over them.

I'm a trans guy, but I think the issues you are talking about are the same. What you are talking about is socialization. Males are socialized in a certain way and so are females in any society. I don't know that my socialization "took" exactly but I didn't fit in with what a lot of what women talked about, otoh, I don't really think that I socialize very well with the majority of cisguys. Kind of feel more comfortable with trans people, but it is kind of what the socialization was. We were socialized the same way. I feel being around transguys is a bit like being around gay guys and like being around gay guys (I mean those who accept us, as not all do). I was at a huge advocacy meeting and did a trans education thing. And there were a lot of gay guys and I felt more comfortable than with straight guys. But I think it's again in the socialization. I think gay guys didn't take the socialization the same way. 

I had a trans girl friend. It was rather funny as she watched the games and played the violent video games. We finally found movies we both liked but initially it was like she wanted to watch the action movies and wanted to watch dramas. These are culturally based things.



--Jay

I agree. We as transgender people are different from cisgender people. But thats not a bad thing. Which is why i stress to myself that the body isnt the main aspect of being trans. Its our brains. How we socialize, react, and think in different situations. We have a different perspective in the world, so why wouldnt we be proud of that? We are not bound to societies gender norms even if we feel our bodies should. But this leads to a shallow frame of mind that will only lead to self destruction. The only way we can be ourselves is to just let ourselves be. Dont try to fit into the norm because its useless. We do not fit the norm. I suppressed my girl mode for so long. I dont want to suppress my guy part when i cross to the other side. Because my male and female parts are a part of me. If i get rid of any, i will be miserable.

I am yet to go on hormones but i am a transgender female. I identify as such. I will likely be tomboyish tho i like thinking of myself as pretty. That is not something any cis person can claim.

Quote from: Emo on January 11, 2014, 12:30:24 PM
I agree. We as transgender people are different from cisgender people. But thats not a bad thing. Which is why i stress to myself that the body isnt the main aspect of being trans. Its our brains. How we socialize, react, and think in different situations. We have a different perspective in the world, so why wouldnt we be proud of that? We are not bound to societies gender norms even if we feel our bodies should. But this leads to a shallow frame of mind that will only lead to self destruction. The only way we can be ourselves is to just let ourselves be. Dont try to fit into the norm because its useless. We do not fit the norm. I suppressed my girl mode for so long. I dont want to suppress my guy part when i cross to the other side. Because my male and female parts are a part of me. If i get rid of any, i will be miserable.

I am yet to go on hormones but i am a transgender female. I identify as such. I will likely be tomboyish tho i like thinking of myself as pretty. That is not something any cis person can claim.

Well said Emo and Phoenix,,,we are indeed different and there is nothing wrong with that,
im a trans girl and Im proud 

I believe that even if we like it or not , being transgender has caused us a unique kind of pain, that pain personally made me realise that trans/gay or whatever you are you should be free to live your life in peace and happiness,,,arent most trans people like that?
really kind and carrying ?

QuoteThis creates issues for me in the trans* community because people tend to assume I was born biologically male, socialized male, and the transitioned to female and tried very hard to conform to female social norms.  In reality, I would say the opposite is much more true and I do not understand myself that way at all.  I'm just reverting to how I learned to be when I was growing up. 

Hi Phoenix,

There seems to be a tendency for some to say things like 'I never experienced male privilege', 'I was never socialized as a male' etc. But I think this is too simplistic a view. Sure, some definitely had varying degrees of socialization and privilege. For instance, I didn't have any female friends growing up and was ostracized by females. So there are a lot of things about female culture and socialization I just didn't get. I never fit in with girls, more with boys, etc, etc. But gender is so pervasive. You can never escape socialization completely even if you never hung around your birth gender.

It doesn't matter how you saw the world, a large part of socialization is simply the world's reaction to you as a perceived male or female. No matter how masculine or feminine you are. A masculine girl is never treated the same as a boy. And a feminine boy is never treated the same as a girl. A boyish girl may have been treated differently to most girls and vice versa for a feminine boy. But they are still perceived by the world as a girl and boy respectively. And that is huge. No matter how a so called 'girly boy' is treated, there is still a deep gorge between that and how girls are perceived and treated. It's not the same. Even if girls regarded you as an equal, they did not regard you the same. And vice versa for ftms. There's a big difference.

So while a trans girl may have been extremely girly during childhood and even regarded as one the girls, she shouldn't kid herself that she didn't have a vastly different experience to cis females. Because she did. The very fact she was abused for being girly speaks to the fact she was regarded as male. Being treated horribly for being feminine is not the same as being seen as a girl.

And sure, having a girly childhood, she may (or may not be) more equipped for female life than some other trans women. But it certainly doesn't mean she escaped male socialization. Sure there are varying degrees. Some guys have a lot more female socialization than I do for example. But to escape it completely, you'd have to have transitioned at birth pretty much. Kids absorb so much in the first few years of life. And gender is the biggest distinction, so we should never kid ourselves that we escaped our birth socialization.

Even if you're not as male socialized as some, you're still way more male socialized than any cis girl.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 11:49:16 AM
The first conversation group I came to was abut four guys talking about school hijinks that got into in their youth and other such mischief.  The conversation might as well have been Swahili.  I ended up standing there for probably 10-20 minutes.  I had absolutely nothing to contribute, no similar past experiences, and no clue what was going on.  I eventually wandered off.  The next conversation I joined was a pair of women colleagues who were talking about movies, books, and the like.  That conversation was easy.  We had the same tastes in movies.  We had read many of the same books.  But it was like being a guest.  There was this huge, gender based social divide where women lived on one side and men on another.  I couldn't fit with the men, so I couldn't live there.  But the women only saw me as a visitor so I couldn't live there.  I had no space for me to be at home. 

Wow, I relate to this like you wouldn't believe. Even after cis women would declare me "an honorary woman" I was still an outsider. Mainstream male culture in Australia is something I've never felt comfortable with or willing to be part of. That's not to say the women I know and work with don't talk politics or sport, they just generally talk about it differently and not as blinkered.

How one is socialised is very hard to shake off and unlearn. It is literally like moving from one country to another, there are a whole lot of different customs and behaviours that are endemic and natural to the local population but sometimes quite alien and difficult to grasp for the newcomer. In Afghanistan they have a custom that allows families with no sons to pretend their eldest daughter is a son (it's a prestige thing). She is given a male name, dressed as a male and goes to school as a male...at least until she hits puberty and they start looking to marry her off. So a cis female is socialised as male, the article I read never mentioned how these girls were able to handled the quantum shift between gender roles in one of the most misogynist and gender divisive cultures on earth.

OK, since I've been immunized by OP against the dreaded thumbs down (though perhaps not the equally dreaded "you offended me"), I'll agree with what has been said here.

I don't know whether it's biology, conditioning, or some combination, but I get a distinctly male vibe from an awful lot of the transwomen I meet IRL.

What do I mean by a male vibe?

Women (in general) tend to be more comfortable with emotional vulnerability. They are comfortable with being emotionally vulnerable and are comfortable with me being emotionally vulnerable.

That's hard to find among trans women. They tend to make the types of connections I see men make and not the type that women make. There are exceptions. (Interestingly, some of the transwoman on Susan's that I've met IRL seem not to fit this pattern).

But among cis women, there is often an automatic acceptance as a fellow woman that I don't find among trans women.

Quote from: Cindy on January 11, 2014, 11:57:26 AM
I relate this to talking to people from different countries and culture.

I definitely agree!  I often describe a big part of my community job as being about explaining trans* people to cispeople and explaining cispeople to trans* people.  That really is about being a cultural intermediary.  I had a discussion I was facilitating one time where a foreign service officer was in attendance.  She came up to me after and said "oh my god, you're doing what we do with foreign countries."  It's exactly the same.  And like dealing with a foreign culture, cultural differences exist, they are real, and trying to ignore them doesn't make them go away. 

Quote from: aleon515 on January 11, 2014, 11:59:03 AM
I'm a trans guy, but I think the issues you are talking about are the same. What you are talking about is socialization.

Exactly.  And I agree it's totally the same issue whether with transmen and transwomen.  I don't actually read the transmen or the transwomen forum as such, but I end up reading both when I click the button to see newly updated topics. 

Quote from: aleon515 on January 11, 2014, 11:59:03 AM
Males are socialized in a certain way and so are females in any society. I don't know that my socialization "took" exactly but I didn't fit in with what a lot of what women talked about, otoh, I don't really think that I socialize very well with the majority of cisguys. Kind of feel more comfortable with trans people, but it is kind of what the socialization was. We were socialized the same way. I feel being around transguys is a bit like being around gay guys and like being around gay guys (I mean those who accept us, as not all do). I was at a huge advocacy meeting and did a trans education thing. And there were a lot of gay guys and I felt more comfortable than with straight guys. But I think it's again in the socialization. I think gay guys didn't take the socialization the same way.   

Because my socialization differs from most trans* people (time spent abroad as well as gender based stuff) I end up feeling like I stand somewhere in the middle between trans* people and cis people.  But in a way, that's sort of a microcosm of my life.  It comes from being a military brat.  I blend in easily as a social chameleon, and I am at home everywhere and nowhere.  But for some reason I cannot speak male.  That one I just can't do.  Can't do it with men.  Can't do it with transwomen.  I tend to have similar issues with extremely butch expressing lesbians too.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 11, 2014, 11:59:03 AM
I had a trans girl friend. It was rather funny as she watched the games and played the violent video games. We finally found movies we both liked but initially it was like she wanted to watch the action movies and wanted to watch dramas. These are culturally based things.

I hosted a big organizational meeting for my organization, Maryland Trans*Unity at my house last year.  After the meeting, I had a similar experience to what you describe.  All of the transmen went outside on my back deck.  All the female identified persons (not all transwoman identified) stayed inside.  Three of the women sat on one side of the room.  The ciswoman attendee and I ended up chatting on the other side of the room.  One of the three suddenly commented aloud to all of us about how we were divided up between masculine and feminine identified persons.  Another of the three then said "yeah, and the guys are missing out!  We're having a great conversation about video games!"  My response was, "well we're over here talking about feelings and relationships."  Not sure if I should share the observation that was made by one of the three transwomen about that . . . .

Yes, totally cultural.  But culture really shapes and impacts a lot.

Just as a note - not related to any specific posts but just in general from ideas expressed on the forum over the years:
the idea that someone born male experienced the socialization that I did (or close to it) is kind of offensive. I'm sorry if they were badly treated, but it's not the same as being born female. Just as being born poor and underprivileged doesn't make me any less white or any more a racial minority. Being born female is a minority status all over the world. And it takes a psychic toll. Even if a white person had a much harder life by comparison to an African American person, it doesn't mean he knows anything about racism or that his abuse has anything to do with his African American brothers'.

So while I sympathize and feel bad for trans women who were abused for being feminine, it is NOT the same thing. The abuse of feminine males may have roots in sexism but it is still nothing like growing up female. The trans women who acknowledge this are a lot more likely to get along with cis women.

Allow me to be perfectly transparent with yet another distinctly different angle, I am so heavily male socialized that in spite of my inner proclivities and desire for the feminine side that there is no way I will ever be perceived as a full blown female other than in my birthday suit and even that would sometimes be a stretch, so I opted for Androgyny which fairly well suits my needs in every respect. My other attempts at womanhood are like pissing in a gale force headwind. That being confessed I still catch a lot of indignant crap from trans women who feel superior and view my presentation as some kind of threat to their own validity in social settings, while the cis women I associate with view me as a lovable anomaly and friend. 

Quote from: Shantel on January 11, 2014, 02:26:15 PM
Allow me to be perfectly transparent with yet another distinctly different angle, I am so heavily male socialized that in spite of my inner proclivities and desire for the feminine side that there is no way I will ever be perceived as a full blown female other than in my birthday suit and even that would sometimes be a stretch, so I opted for Androgyny which fairly well suits my needs in every respect. My other attempts at womanhood are like pissing in a gale force headwind. That being confessed I still catch a lot of indignant crap from trans women who feel superior and view my presentation as some kind of threat to their own validity in social settings, while the cis women I associate with view me as a lovable anomaly and friend. 

As do I Ms. Shantel... as do I.

Okay there's a lot going on here, so please bear with me.  This may end up being a long post. 

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
Hi Phoenix,

Hi FA!

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 02:44:40 PM
There seems to be a tendency for some to say things like 'I never experienced male privilege', 'I was never socialized as a male' etc. But I think this is too simplistic a view. Sure, some definitely had varying degrees of socialization and privilege. For instance, I didn't have any female friends growing up and was ostracized by females. So there are a lot of things about female culture and socialization I just didn't get. I never fit in with girls, more with boys, etc, etc. But gender is so pervasive. You can never escape socialization completely even if you never hung around your birth gender.

Okay, two things here.  First of all, I'd like to quote something I said about myself in my first post introducing myself on this site:

Quote from: ThePhoenix on December 11, 2013, 02:57:06 PM
I am a trans* spectrum individual.  I've kind of given up trying to identify more specifically than that because I find that the more specific terms tend to not quite work for various reasons.  People around here (Maryland/DC area) typically classify me as either a transwoman, a detransitioner, or a cisgender ally.  My rule is to be amused and let those who are worried about it figure it out.

In all candor, I do not trust this web forum enough nor feel interested enough in the discussion to start getting into much of my far distant personal history or the details of my identity.  That's why I tend to say no more than that I have a history of having taken both T and E as well as assorted other hormonal oddities.  Suffice to say that there are reasons I describe myself as trans* spectrum not otherwise specified and not simply as a transwoman.  Some of my issues are the same as transwomen.  Some are polar opposites.  But I wish people would quit writing a story for me about being born a boy, growing up male, etc., etc. It works better if we just take each other at face value and try to filter out the assumptions. . And my history and identity are a tangled mess that I once thought I understood thoroughly.  Now I'm not at all sure that even I understand it.

Second is the discussion of male privilege.  It's an oft raised concept that is related to, but not the same as, male socialization.  But I am critical of it, especially in this context.  The idea that one group (makes) is privileged means that, by implication, another group (perhaps all other groups?) must be disadvantaged.  This way of thinking, tends to reduce a complex topic to a slogan and lead to oppositional, us vs. them, thinking.  I think that any truthful and honest discussion of men's and women's roles in society must acknowledge complexity that arises from the fact that there is a complex web of privileges and detriments that are related to both gender and numerous other factors in society.  Not everything described as "male privilege" is experienced by all men.  There are also drawbacks to being a man.  And there are also female privileges associated with being a woman.  The concept of "male privileges" tries to boil al, of that down to two words and doesn't really work.  In some settings it is true that men are privileged and all others are not.  In some settings, women are privileged.  In other settings some men and some women are privileged while others are not.  And so on.  So I think this idea of "male privilege" is, like any other two word phrase, not very helpful to having a real discussion about the complexities of how lives are actually lived.  The devil is always in the details and two word phrases tend to paint very broad brushes that paint over all the details. 

I also have to say that I am trying to start a discussion that is open and honest about lives.  I think it's fair to say that many of us, by virtue of whatever form of trans* identity we may have, have experienced some oppression.  One thing is for certain:  over the years I have been doing social justice work (not just trans* work) I have learned that there are many kinds of oppression.  And comparing them or arguing about who is more oppressed is rarely helpful.

And in this case, I'm talking about male socialization, of which privileges are only one part, and I already acknowledged that I gots me some o' that.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
It doesn't matter how you saw the world, a large part of socialization is simply the world's reaction to you as a perceived male or female. No matter how masculine or feminine you are. A masculine girl is never treated the same as a boy. And a feminine boy is never treated the same as a girl. A boyish girl may have been treated differently to most girls and vice versa for a feminine boy. But they are still perceived by the world as a girl and boy respectively. And that is huge. No matter how a so called 'girly boy' is treated, there is still a deep gorge between that and how girls are perceived and treated. It's not the same. Even if girls regarded you as an equal, they did not regard you the same. And vice versa for ftms. There's a big difference.

Yes.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
So while a trans girl may have been extremely girly during childhood and even regarded as one the girls, she shouldn't kid herself that she didn't have a vastly different experience to cis females. Because she did. The very fact she was abused for being girly speaks to the fact she was regarded as male. Being treated horribly for being feminine is not the same as being seen as a girl.

Sure, but when we speak of socialization, are we speaking of what lessons a person actually learned from others or what lessons others tried to teach a person?  Aleon515's description of socialization not really sticking is a good example of this.  The world apparently was trying to teach Aleon515 lessons about how to live in the world as a girl.  But they didn't take.  (And I'm going to assume that Aleon515 is in a better position to make judgments about his own life than I am, so I won't question them). 

So was Aleon515 socialized as a girl (because people were trying to teach those lessons) or not (because he didn't learn them)?

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
And sure, having a girly childhood, she may (or may not be) more equipped for female life than some other trans women. But it certainly doesn't mean she escaped male socialization. Sure there are varying degrees. Some guys have a lot more female socialization than I do for example. But to escape it completely, you'd have to have transitioned at birth pretty much. Kids absorb so much in the first few years of life. And gender is the biggest distinction, so we should never kid ourselves that we escaped our birth socialization.

That's kind of my point in starting this thread.  I think we agree on at least this much.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
Even if you're not as male socialized as some, you're still way more male socialized than any cis girl.

Assuming the statement is directed at me personally and not a generic "you," I agree with this statement too.  I spent most of my adult life living (or at least trying to live) as a male person.  Naturally that has had an impact on me today. 

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 11, 2014, 12:52:26 PM
Wow, I relate to this like you wouldn't believe. Even after cis women would declare me "an honorary woman" I was still an outsider. Mainstream male culture in Australia is something I've never felt comfortable with or willing to be part of. That's not to say the women I know and work with don't talk politics or sport, they just generally talk about it differently and not as blinkered.

How one is socialised is very hard to shake off and unlearn. It is literally like moving from one country to another, there are a whole lot of different customs and behaviours that are endemic and natural to the local population but sometimes quite alien and difficult to grasp for the newcomer. In Afghanistan they have a custom that allows families with no sons to pretend their eldest daughter is a son (it's a prestige thing). She is given a male name, dressed as a male and goes to school as a male...at least until she hits puberty and they start looking to marry her off. So a cis female is socialised as male, the article I read never mentioned how these girls were able to handled the quantum shift between gender roles in one of the most misogynist and gender divisive cultures on earth.

I used to explain myself to people by pointing out that men socialize by going out and doing things.  Their slogan might be "we strove together therefore we are bonded."  Women go do things too, but the thing is not the point.  The doing something is just a way to get everyone together and the real connection is formed by sharing.  Women's slogan might be "we shared and therefore we are bonded."  Subject to numerous caveats and exceptions, and with full knowledge that we are painting with very broad brushes that obscure the details I just wrote about, that does seem to be true. 

From some of your other posts, I suspect we may have a lot in common.  If nothing else, we are roughly contemporaries.  I too first came into the trans* community in the 1990s, then went away, and the came back later.  Although back in the 1990s I lived in Alaska, where there was very little trans* community, so most of my contact with other trans* people was via Internet.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 11:49:16 AM
And maybe the biggest lesson of my experience is not that trans* people are different from cispeople! but that trans* people are different from one another.

Exactly. And yet there is this judgmental recurring theme of "not trans enough" that pops up now and then.

Quote from: Emo on January 11, 2014, 12:30:24 PM
I suppressed my girl mode for so long. I dont want to suppress my guy part when i cross to the other side. Because my male and female parts are a part of me. If i get rid of any, i will be miserable.

It seems societies are finally realizing that gender is not black and white and that goes for trans-identified and cis-identified people. I identify as cis but I acknowledge my female side. I've even had my moments when I've wondered if I was trans. A lot of homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, and misandry comes from that--realizing you have aspects of both genders and feeling like you're not supposed to, not allowed to, or what-not.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 11, 2014, 12:57:08 PM
OK, since I've been immunized by OP against the dreaded thumbs down (though perhaps not the equally dreaded "you offended me"), I'll agree with what has been said here.

I don't know whether it's biology, conditioning, or some combination, but I get a distinctly male vibe from an awful lot of the transwomen I meet IRL.

What do I mean by a male vibe?

Women (in general) tend to be more comfortable with emotional vulnerability. They are comfortable with being emotionally vulnerable and are comfortable with me being emotionally vulnerable.

That's hard to find among trans women. They tend to make the types of connections I see men make and not the type that women make. There are exceptions. (Interestingly, some of the transwoman on Susan's that I've met IRL seem not to fit this pattern).

But among cis women, there is often an automatic acceptance as a fellow woman that I don't find among trans women.

I'm not sure I did such a good job of immunizing against thumbs up and thumbs down considering that I got a thumbs up for the post in which I asked for no thumbs up or thumbs down.  I'm beginning to like the site more and more overall, but I'm beginning to really dislike the thumbs up and thumbs down.  Sigh . . .

This is another case where I'm not sure I can safely say all of what I'm thinking, but I will say that I agree with your observations about the "vibe."  I've asked people what it is about me that comes off as so different from most trans* people.  They tell me there is "an air about me" that is very different.  I have no idea what that means.  You've actually met me (albeit only once) so if you can shed any light on what that means, please be my guest.  Or maybe I'll come up to Howard County again for the next meeting so we can continue the conversation in person. 

When I am out socializing with transwomen, I often spend a lot of time going WTF???

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 02:22:13 PM
Just as a note - not related to any specific posts but just in general from ideas expressed on the forum over the years:
the idea that someone born male experienced the socialization that I did (or close to it) is kind of offensive. I'm sorry if they were badly treated, but it's not the same as being born female. Just as being born poor and underprivileged doesn't make me any less white or any more a racial minority. Being born female is a minority status all over the world. And it takes a psychic toll. Even if a white person had a much harder life by comparison to an African American person, it doesn't mean he knows anything about racism or that his abuse has anything to do with his African American brothers'.

So while I sympathize and feel bad for trans women who were abused for being feminine, it is NOT the same thing. The abuse of feminine males may have roots in sexism but it is still nothing like growing up female. The trans women who acknowledge this are a lot more likely to get along with cis women.

I did get the impression there might be some offense taken to my post, but I did not want to say anything lest I be seen as provocative.  I do want to apologize if anything I said was taken as offensive.  It certainly was not my intention.  But by the same token, I would ask that you accept that one thing I know a whole lot more about than anyone else is my life  and what I make of it.

With that said, I offer:

([{ }]) <-- an e-hug

And hope we can move on. 

Hi Phoenix,

Well much of what you said echoes what I said as you stated. This is one thing I see stated a lot on this forum:

QuoteNot everything described as "male privilege" is experienced by all men.  There are also drawbacks to being a man.

While I agree to the latter statement (there are definitely drawbacks to being a man as I have experienced since my transition), I disagree with the former. This idea has been stated a million times since I've been here and I disagree with it.  All those perceived as male experience male privilege. This does not mean you will never be abused, beaten up, ridiculed for being girly, etc. Privilege does not mean you have a good life. It simply means you're afforded privileges others aren't. The very fact that a male appearing person is abused for being girly is testament to his male status. A man who is regularly abused for being feminine does not have the same status as a female. Walking down the street, he may be raped, but he doesn't have the same risk of it as a female. And he most likely didn't grow up hearing lectures as to where to walk, etc.

There really is no one who was declared male at birth who can say they never experienced male privilege (no matter how shabbily treated). Just as I can never say I didn't experience white privilege (no matter how shabbily treated).

I realize some radfems try to hold this against trans women and that is unfortunate. But the remedy isn't to make excuses or deny your history.

I think there are certainly differences, but not necessarily in behaviour or interests.   Because transwomen go through a "male" upbringing, there are certainly some general distinctions and different experiences.  That will likely make an impact on all of us in different ways.   However, in my own personal experience, I've never really fit into the male camp all too well and always felt like an outsider.  So, I don't know if I can share the normal male experience.  But at the same time, I acknowledge that doesn't mean that I'm the same as a cis female.  In most female groups, I'm accepted as an alternative "guy" or someone who is gay.  I'm never fully embraced even if I'm tolerated or somewhat accepted, so I see what you mean.  At the moment, I'm still in boy mode, so I don't know if that will change, but it would be nice to not alwas be an outsider.  In any event, I know I'll never be cis and that I have my differences.  It's a tough thing for me to accept, but it's the reality.