Good morning guys and dolls (and Regina),

Serious question for ya:

Two transwomen, both in their 30s.

Transwoman A -  has been on HRT for some time, hasn't had SRS yet
Transwoman B -  has never had HRT, hasn't had SRS yet

Transwoman A - has been dressing as female (on a regular basis) for a few years (same time as HRT)
Transwoman B - has been dressing as female (on a regular basis) since high school

Transwoman A - completely non-passable
Transwoman B - not that passable, but more so than Transwoman A

Transwoman A - has affected and exaggerated behaviours and mannerisms, including amusing falsetto
Transwoman B - her behaviours and mannerisms come naturally to her

Transwoman A - comes off as male impersonating a female
Transwoman B - comes off as female through and through


Now could somebody please explain to me why Transwoman A is '->-bleeped-<-r', more valid, more of a woman than Transwoman B simply because she takes a pill every morning?

Side note - we don't know Transwoman B's motivations for not taking HRT. She could very well have a medical condition which prevents her from taking it at this time, or she simply may have chosen not to for reasons of her own.





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Hmmm....well, the only reason a TS person wouldn't take HRT is due to a diagnosed medical condition which prevents her/him from doing that.  If she/he "doesn't want to take HRT" for whatever reasons other than medical, then I'm afraid that person doesn't fit the criteria for TS'im as specified by the DSM and
ICD-10. 

Quote from: DSM IVTranssexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:

1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment;

2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;

3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quote extracted from this link.

Additionally the person in question may suffer from some kind of gender dysphoria to be considered gender dysphoric but not to the point of wanting to undergo HRT.  Therefore in essence and by definition that person isn't TS.


tink

Although, let me point out Tink, that the definition says usually, not always. So it doesn't exclude noho's.

Dennis

Ok Tink - what about it if Transwoman B does have a medical condition? Is she less 'trans' than Transwoman A?

Or - what if Transwoman B already passes just fine without it? And is able to live and as a woman?

Or let me ask the transwomen here this -
If you were completely passable, had gynecomastia and female fat patterns naturally and live as and accepted as a woman - would you have felt an immediate urge to take HRT? (this isn't that far fetched either. I've known men with both gynecomastia and hips and ass.)

Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 11:33:23 AM
Hmmm....well, the only reason a TS person wouldn't take HRT is due to a diagnosed medical condition which prevents her/him from doing that.

Universal statements like this drive me CRAZY.

Why can't we acknowledge that everyone's circumstance is unique, and people just need to do whatever they need to do?

Why do so many people judge others on what they DO, rather than how they FEEL?

~Kate~

Are we talking about this in medical terms or just as a way to see who "is ->-bleeped-<-r than thou"?  It may sound like a universal statement to some of you, but transsexualism is a very identiafable condition.  It has symptoms and treatments.  If we don't have the symptoms, we simply don't suffer from the condition.  What are the symptoms?  Let's check the DSM, let's talk to our therapist, rather than try to have our own agendas on things.

...and for the record, we are talking about HRT, not transition, not SRS...and what have you, corrrect?


tink

OK - I will bite.

I am sick of these threads - who cares. They are just two people trying to find a place in the world. We treat them both as people and respect them both.

Alice

Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 12:08:30 PM
Are we talking about this in medical terms or just as a way to see who "is ->-bleeped-<-r than thou"?  It may sound like a universal statement to some of you, but transsexualism is a very identiafable condition.  It has symptoms and treatments.  If we don't have the symptoms, we simply don't suffer from the condition.  What are the symptoms?  Let's check the DSM, let's talk to our therapist, rather than try to have our own agendas on things.

...and for the record, we are talking about HRT, not transition, not SRS...and what have you, corrrect?


tink

Ok, Tink. What if Transwoman B does have a medical condition needing to be resolved before she takes HRT?
Does that make Transwoman A more tran, or more valid than her, simply because Transwoman A is already on HRT?

Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:15:46 PM

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Quote from: Alice on August 04, 2007, 12:12:45 PM
OK - I will bite.

I am sick of these threads - who cares. They are just two people trying to find a place in the world. We treat them both as people and respect them both.

Alice

It's important to me because certain holier than thou ->-bleeped-<-s here are proclaiming to be more trans, more valid than a TS who cannot take HRT until medical issues are resolved when they know full well about the person's medical stuff.
Frankly, it pisses me off.

Well, if a question is asked, I will answer.  Sometimes, things in life require a bit of  more "doing" rather than merely "talking".  I usually go by what it is stated on the DSM and ICD-10.  If some of you want to follow your own agenda, go right ahead but don't suggest that others have to agree with you or your POV.

tink

Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions?

Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:20:09 PM

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What does 'doing' or 'talking' have to do with someone who has must wait until medical issues are resolved?

Or a woman who already passes?

Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:17:56 PM
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:15:46 PM

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Quote from: Alice on August 04, 2007, 12:12:45 PM
OK - I will bite.

I am sick of these threads - who cares. They are just two people trying to find a place in the world. We treat them both as people and respect them both.

Alice

It's important to me because certain holier than thou ->-bleeped-<-s here are proclaiming to be more trans, more valid than a TS who cannot take HRT until medical issues are resolved when they know full well about the person's medical stuff.
Frankly, it pisses me off.

Well you sould never listen to those ->-bleeped-<-s. If I did I would of left this site long ago. I am going at my own pace and trying to work out what is best for me (I still do not know what is best for me by the way). It is important for everyone to go at their own pace and deal with their own issues.

Alice

Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:20:09 PM
Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions?

Nero, a TS is a TS by definition or a diagnosis if you will.  There are criteria to be followed.  She has a medical condition?  There are many things that we have to take into account.  Is her medical condition "real" or just an excuse to have her ways?  has this medical condition been diagnosed by a physician or by "herself"?  has she been advised by her therapist/endo/physician to put off HRT because of this medical condition?

tink

Posted on: August 04, 2007, 12:27:02 PM

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Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:23:07 PM
Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions?

Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:20:09 PM

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What does 'doing' or 'talking' have to do with someone who has must wait until medical issues are resolved?

The thing is that I hear a lot of "high talk" and melodrama here, but hello?  Are people DOING something about it? 

QuoteA non-op transsexual is transsexual by definition, for she/he is under a hormone regimen.  Nero was asking about people who for some unusual reason (other than medical) choose not to take HRT.  In this case that person doesn't fit the criteria for TS'im.  The "usually" is to emphasize that some TS can't take HRT for the reasons already stated.

A non-op isn't by definition required to have HRT to be considered TS.

Zythyra

The ICD-10 definition does not say that "usually" means "unless made impossible by a medical condition".

If someone wants to transition without HRT that sounds a lot harder than transitioning with HRT (passing etc). So I think they should be respected and not classified as "not really trans".

Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 11:58:00 AM
Or let me ask the transwomen here this -
If you were completely passable, had gynecomastia and female fat patterns naturally and live as and accepted as a woman - would you have felt an immediate urge to take HRT? (this isn't that far fetched either. I've known men with both gynecomastia and hips and ass.)

Fits me quite well.  I held off on HRT for quite a few years.  The main reason was I didn't want to destroy my family.  Now they've grown to the point where my HRT is no longer a "deal breaker."

Quote from: taru on August 04, 2007, 12:40:24 PM
If someone wants to transition without HRT that sounds a lot harder than transitioning with HRT (passing etc). So I think they should be respected and not classified as "not really trans".

It really didn't make that much difference to the process of transition.

Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 12:01:21 PM
Nero was asking about people who for some unusual reason (other than medical) choose not to take HRT.  In this case that person doesn't fit the criteria for TS'im.  The "usually" is to emphasize that some TS can't take HRT for the reasons already stated.

Curious how that didn't stop my therapist from putting the 302.85 diagnosis in my file.

Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 12:34:10 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:20:09 PM
Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions?

Nero, a TS is a TS by definition or a diagnosis if you will.  There are criteria to be followed.  She has a medical condition?  There are many things that we have to take into account.  Is her medical condition "real" or just an excuse to have her ways?  has this medical condition been diagnosed by a physician or by "herself"?  has she been advised by her therapist/endo/physician to put off HRT because of this medical condition?

tink

Posted on: August 04, 2007, 12:27:02 PM

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Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 12:23:07 PM
Uh...Tink how does that answer any of my questions?

Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:20:09 PM

---

What does 'doing' or 'talking' have to do with someone who has must wait until medical issues are resolved?

The thing is that I hear a lot of "high talk" and melodrama here, but hello?  Are people DOING something about it? 

Ok yeah. She should just 'do' something about. She's only 'talking'. She has blood work done twice a week. Has been advised NOT to take anything not prescribed by her physician who strongly suspects she has congestive heart failure among other things he's already diagnosed her with. She's on 6 medications per day. Is under doctor's orders for bed rest, every blood test shows the levels have gotten worse, she's undergone so many damn test she's sick of it, every doctor's visit he prescribes more tests, more X-rays, etc. She's in a Dr. House nightmare. She hacks up a gallon of fluid and blood every day, if she stands for more than 90 seconds in the shower, she'll collapse.
She's just trying to survive each day, the most important thing to her right now is getting better.

But according to some here, she's less trans than others on HRT and she's not 'doing' anything about it. Yeah. Ok , she should just risk her health and maybe even her life for the holy grail of HRT.
Because she won't be a real Ts until she does , right?

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 04, 2007, 01:08:02 PM


hey i dont have an agenda. 

You may not but you'd be surprised to know how many people in general do. Anyhow, we are discussing HRT, correct?  suddenly this topic seems to have gone off course and some seem to be talking about TS'im, others about transition, and some about SRS.   

tink

Ok, so the moral of the story here is - that HRT is the be all and end all.
That Transwoman A is trans despite looking and acting like a real flamboyant drag queen, despite the fact that she never attempted to live as female until 2 years ago.
And Transwoman B isn't trans in either scenario:

1. She dresses as female, acts female, is accepted as female, is more passable than Transwoman A - but because she has decided not take HRT at this time for reasons of her own is far less trans and valid than Transwoman A, and in fact may not be trans at all.

2. Transwoman B dresses, acts, and is accepted as female, and is more passable than Transwoman A - alas she has medical issues needing to be resolved before HRT.
Everyone knows this means she is not trans. After all transpeople are immune to illnesses affecting non-trans people. Any TS who is ill is obviously lying to cover the fact they don't want any physical alterations made (such as HRT, SRS, etc.) She could be on her death bed, but she's faking the whole thing, because all TS have powers and immunities that non-TS don't possess.
If by the very rare chance, she is actually ill - she should just 'do' something about it, instead of 'talk' about it. She can whip up a magic potion, cure herself, and take HRT.
And godforbid she has a disease that is hard to diagnose, that takes 100s of test to rule all the more common illnesses out first. - well, then it's just so obvious she's lying. Doesn't matter that she's bed ridden, doesn't matter about the gallon of fluid and blood she coughs up every day. She's healthy as a horse and faking all this just so she has an excuse not to take HRT.

Nero, i'm sorry to hear that someone, anyone, has given you the "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" treatment.

frankly i'm also very surprised. with your facility with words and "not pulling any punches" attitude, whoever said it must have had a lot of nerve. anyway, who was it? lemme at 'em!

everybody knows that tranniness has to exist before administering HRT. to say otherwise is just silly. don't let mean-spirited people get you down. just ignore them.

Nero, these characters are fictional, correct? (trans woman A and trans woman B).  I mean god forbid that I'm going to get upset about two people that don't exist or perhaps they may exist but their lives cannot be described in a post; therefore making a suggestion or giving opinions about these two people is just plain useless.  So now this TS lady is bed ridden?....this is just getting too confusing as more "stuff" is coming through the surface.

tink