Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
While I agree to the latter statement (there are definitely drawbacks to being a man as I have experienced since my transition), I disagree with the former. This idea has been stated a million times since I've been here and I disagree with it.  All those perceived as male experience male privilege. This does not mean you will never be abused, beaten up, ridiculed for being girly, etc. Privilege does not mean you have a good life. It simply means you're afforded privileges others aren't. The very fact that a male appearing person is abused for being girly is testament to his male status. A man who is regularly abused for being feminine does not have the same status as a female. Walking down the street, he may be raped, but he doesn't have the same risk of it as a female. And he most likely didn't grow up hearing lectures as to where to walk, etc.

Oh gosh, my favorite of those lectures was the one my mother gave me about parking lots.  I think she made me a whole lot more worried about such things than most other women because of some things that happened to her.  But that's a digression for another time. 

As far as male privilege goes, I'm not really interested in arguing the issue.  It's a point I suspect we will have to disagree on. 

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
There really is no one who was declared male at birth who can say they never experienced male privilege (no matter how shabbily treated). Just as I can never say I didn't experience white privilege (no matter how shabbily treated).

White privilege is one I agree with you on. 

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
I realize some radfems try to hold this against trans women and that is unfortunate. But the remedy isn't to make excuses or deny your history.

But I'm not sure I understand this statement.  Are you addressing a generic "you?"  Stating that people should not make excuses or deny their history?  In that case I agree.  It's always best to deal in unvarnished reality.

Or are you addressing the statement to me personally?  In that case, I would say that I have been pretty candid up to and including the fact that I have acknowledged that there are some things I do not wish to share or discuss, which is my privilege.  I do take exception to the idea of someone applying their own values and preconceptions and accusing me of doing either of these things.  And I hope that I have not, and will not, do the same to others. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 03:04:43 PM

I did get the impression there might be some offense taken to my post, but I did not want to say anything lest I be seen as provocative.  I do want to apologize if anything I said was taken as offensive.  It certainly was not my intention.  But by the same token, I would ask that you accept that one thing I know a whole lot more about than anyone else is my life  and what I make of it.

With that said, I offer:

([{ }]) <-- an e-hug

And hope we can move on.

No offense taken hon. It's more what I said - that I see a lot of 'I never experienced male socialization/privilege!' stuff on the forum. And honestly, as someone born female, it bothers me. I'm by no means what you may call a feminist but, I was born female. And someone who was raised male even just to like 10 or something does have a vastly different experience. Children absorb so much before 5. And as someone born female, I can clearly see why cis women would object to people raised male denying this or excusing it by saying 'they never really experienced male privilege' because they were 'girly' or abused or whatever.

It IS a different experience to be pronounced a girl at birth and raised as one than it is to be 'girly as a kid' or whatever. The same as it is different experience to be born a black kid than a white kid in society. This doesn't mean trans women are any less women, but they did not experience what cis women experienced growing up. This is not to say they are any less legitimate, but to deny this fact causes more harm than good. And alienates other women.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:45:12 PM
It IS a different experience to be pronounced a girl at birth and raised as one than it is to be 'girly as a kid' or whatever. The same as it is different experience to be born a black kid than a white kid in society. This doesn't mean trans women are any less women, but they did not experience what cis women experienced growing up. This is not to say they are any less legitimate, but to deny this fact causes more harm than good. And alienates other women.

Well, I asked for no thumbs up thumbs down, so I guess I can't thumbs up this one without breaking my own request, but I can at least say

AMEN!!!

And then hopefully I can get a break to go get some groceries and pick up my mother to get her credit card that she left at a restaurant.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 03:52:01 PM

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:45:12 PM
It IS a different experience to be pronounced a girl at birth and raised as one than it is to be 'girly as a kid' or whatever. The same as it is different experience to be born a black kid than a white kid in society. This doesn't mean trans women are any less women, but they did not experience what cis women experienced growing up. This is not to say they are any less legitimate, but to deny this fact causes more harm than good. And alienates other women.

Well, I asked for no thumbs up thumbs down, so I guess I can't thumbs up this one without breaking my own request, but I can at least say

AMEN!!!

And then hopefully I can get a break to go get some groceries and pick up my mother to get her credit card that she left at a restaurant.

Okay good. Then at least someone understood my rant - which wasn't based on your post by the way but on many I've seen throughout this forum. Seems like everyone wants to deny any societal effect. If we could just all accept we've been society's pawns before waking up, we'd be a lot better off.

Well, I think there is a different sort of socialization between typical men and those who are seen girly.  Those who are seen as girly may not have recieved the same sort of socialization that women recieve, but it is different than what most men go through in many ways.   I really think most gay men and transwomen who realized their identity from an early age experience things different than most people in cis or straight communities.    For example, I've been able to experience certain aspects of "male" privilege and have gone through typical male events in my life, but my experience seems so different from what most guys went through and it's hard to explain.  So I feel my socialization is different from most ciswomen, but also different than most cis or straight men.  When you are an alternative child, people treat you differently which has a huge impact on you.   That's a whole other experience in itself.

If I am being honest, I think that it would do a lot of people, cis and trans, to let go of the socialization issue.

Yes, I am not cis. But my socialization has nothing to do with that, and my body has everything to do with it. Biologically I am, and always will be, transsexual. I will never be male, in terms of my sex. My acceptance of my "difference" ends there.

I don't believe socialization forms our interests, behaviours, etc. It simply encourages some and discourages others. I love to use the example of myself and my brother, because we grew up so close in age, and emotionally, we have a closer bond than most siblings. When my brother was bullied, his socialization was to punch the kid in the face. When I was bullied, my socialization was to be a bit more delicate about the entire thing; avoid the bullies, make notes, tell teachers, etc.

My brother did snap once and shoved a kid in a locker. But he's never used physical intimidation since. He could have. It would be encouraged and supported. But what ultimately empowered my brother to stand up for himself was watching Oprah, and learning to believe in himself and what was important to him. The way he asserts himself is very much through words, and if you didn't know it was coming from his mouth, you'd assume it was a woman saying it. If he were to transition to a woman, I honestly believe that socially, he'd blend in seamlessly (physically...it could go either way lol). He can hold his own with cis women way better, and it took him forever to form any kind of conversational bond with a man. He's chosen his whole life not to fit in and to be who he is, regardless of socialization pressuring him to do whatever. He's also sick of people telling him to "just become a woman already." He's not a different kind of male because he chose to embrace his "feminine" ways early enough in life for them to come naturally. He's a cisgender man (unless he has a surprise for me! In which case I will support her as she always supported me)

Take me. I was encouraged to do the opposite of my brother; improve my self-esteem, not fight, etc etc. I chose to do that. Consciously. I wanted to fit in. Socialization only encouraged me to do it. Just as socialization encouraged me not to watch certain movies, certain comedians, and talk about certain things. I remember one time where I was read as cis and the guy was like "just like that Dane Cook skit, you remember that, man?" I didn't know what to say. I never let myself watch Dane Cook because that's what the men I knew did, and I didn't want to tread too much into "male territory" because I didn't want anyone to know the truth about me. But you know what I thought? Those rules never applied to me in the first place, but because I wanted to fit in, I chose to avoid it. If I want to, I can find all Dane Cook's skits, watch them, and then form an opinion. If I like them, I can talk to the guys about them with just as much fervor. If I don't like them, I won't do that, but I doubt it will be because of how I was raised. It will be because of my personal tastes and preferences.

Socialization, I believe, at the end of the day, is self-imposed. Yes, we're pressured to do and be X Y and Z because of the sex we were born as. Some of us were comfortable enough in that role to continue with it. At one point in my life, I took on "feminine" behaviours and things that both liked and hated. I threw away the ones I hated, and kept the ones I like. I may have been discouraged from liking "male" things, and I chose to allow myself to be discouraged - and I tell myself now that those things deserve a chance too. Some of the "masculine" things I like have now become a part of my personality. If I don't like them, they get discarded.

I guess what I am saying is none of us should limit ourselves based on our socialization and our comfort zone. It just encourages cis people to limit us as well - to say "well that woman wasn't born a woman, so she can't get us and our experiences and our way of being." Or "that man was born a woman, so he must get us because he can talk to us much easier" (and yes, cis women have said that to me - some even assumed, even though I passed to them otherwise, that I was FTM because of certain behaviours. how offensive!). That's not necessarily true, for one - some trans men blend in better with cis women, some don't. Some trans women blend in better with cis women than others. For another, who cares if the style is a bit different? Why attach meaning to it? I think we need to work past it as HUMANS, forget cis and trans - not shutting people out or treating people differently because they communicate in a way we are not used to or have interests we are unfamiliar with. It's self-limiting.

Quote from: learningtolive on January 11, 2014, 04:03:53 PM
Well, I think there is a different sort of socialization between typical men and those who are seen girly.  Those who are seen as girly may not have recieved the same sort of socialization that women recieve, but it is different than what most men go through in many ways.   I really think most gay men and transwomen who realized their identity from an early age experience things different than most people in cis or straight communities.    For example, I've been able to experience certain aspects of "male" privilege and have gone through typical male events in my life, but my experience seems so different from what most guys went through and it's hard to explain.  So I feel my socialization is different from most ciswomen, but also different than most cis or straight men.  When you are an alternative child, people treat you differently which has a huge impact on you.   That's a whole other experience in itself.

Well, like I said, I'm not doubting that. My experience as a masculine girl wasn't the same as other girls. But there does seem to be a big chip on the shoulder of some trans women like 'I was always girly, I was horribly bullied, etc therefore I never experienced male privilege' that is offensive to people born female. It's simply NOT THE SAME THING. And gives fuel to the idea that trans women are just 'failed men'. I mean, how many guys do you know who were 'losers' (to put it bluntly) who were constantly picked on and didn't end up women?

Being picked on for being girly has nothing in common with being a girl in society. In fact, it's just more proof the person picked on is seen as and being treated as male.

Quote from: ThePhoenix
From you signature:

Please do not thumbs up or thumbs down my posts. I've learned that I am only valuable as a contributor when I'm honest. And this forum is only valuable to me when I can talk honestly about my own issues. Worrying about whether people will like what I say and +1 it or dislike it and -1 it distracts me from just being honest and damages my value to the forum and the forum's value to me. Thanks!!

I appreciate your honesty!  For that I'd like to give you +1

But the reputation system here is not really the same as the like/dislike you find in the social media, such as YouTube or FaceBook.

I have given hundreds of +1, and only ever two smites.  The smites indicated my utter contempt for what the posters were doing.  They were well-deserved.  But rare.

@caleb.

Very well said and I agree completely. The more of your posts I read the more I love the way your mind works!

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:56:57 PM
Okay good. Then at least someone understood my rant - which wasn't based on your post by the way but on many I've seen throughout this forum. Seems like everyone wants to deny any societal effect. If we could just all accept we've been society's pawns before waking up, we'd be a lot better off.

(While I wait on my mother to get ready).

I can be a little slow on the uptake and it may take me a few tries, but I usually get things eventually.  It sounds like we're pretty much on the same page.  My point in starting this thread was basically to say that yes, trans* people are different.  So let's talk about it instead of accusing people who mention it of denying the womanhood of others.  I think maybe we're on similar pages with that.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 04:16:10 PM
Well, like I said, I'm not doubting that. My experience as a masculine girl wasn't the same as other girls. But there does seem to be a big chip on the shoulder of some trans women like 'I was never girly, I was horribly bullied, etc therefore I never experienced male privilege' that is offensive to people born female. It's simply NOT THE SAME THING. And gives fuel to the idea that trans women are just 'failed men'. I mean, how many guys do you know who were 'losers' (to put it bluntly) who were constantly picked on and didn't end up women?

Being picked on for being girly has nothing in common with being a girl in society. In fact, it's just more proof the person picked on is seen as and being treated as male.

It is different from a ciswomen's experience, but I don't see why it should be offensive.  Being a fem "male" isn't going to be the same experience to being a cisgirl who receives a complete female socialization.  That's something I totally concur.  However, I was in the fem camp, and I always was seen as a gay guy or fem.  The way people perceived me definitely effected the way I was dealt with or treated.  But being seen or treated like a fem gay guy clearly is different than being a cisgirl. There not at all the same.  I just would say it's also quite different from being treated like a cis or straight guy and getting all aspects of male priveldge.  Even fem guys are given male privilege to a degree but it is not always the same.  Personally, as a trans girl, if I had to label my socialization it was more like a gay guy (even though that's not what I am).  I still was brought up as male, but the circumstances and way I was treated was verydifferent than your typical straight or cis guy.  I guess I'm confused why ciswomen would take offense to the notion that gay men or fem trans girls had a different upbringing than most guys.  It's not taking away anything from their own upbringing or meaning that it's one of the same.   

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 04:16:10 PM
Well, like I said, I'm not doubting that. My experience as a masculine girl wasn't the same as other girls. But there does seem to be a big chip on the shoulder of some trans women like 'I was always girly, I was horribly bullied, etc therefore I never experienced male privilege' that is offensive to people born female. It's simply NOT THE SAME THING. And gives fuel to the idea that trans women are just 'failed men'. I mean, how many guys do you know who were 'losers' (to put it bluntly) who were constantly picked on and didn't end up women?

Being picked on for being girly has nothing in common with being a girl in society. In fact, it's just more proof the person picked on is seen as and being treated as male.

Thanks.  One thing I've learned from community organization and advocacy is the value of candor.  I have a fair amount of local street cred with government officials, ordinary trans* people, and others.  That's important because without it, I'm worthless.  I am supposed to do a trans* training for the local human rights commission in the spring, for example, and I'm worthless if they are just rolling their eyes.  But I have gained that by the fact that people know when I talk to them, I will be frank while trying not to be mean, and I will tell the pm the truth as best I can see it.  I may be wrong and people may not like what I have to say.  I may not even always make sense.  But they know at least I'm always honest.  I always tell what I really think.

I realized as I was writing the original post that I was really getting fearful about the number of -1s that I was going to attract if I pressed the "post" button.  So I figured I'd better do something to take myself out of it.  It's not meant as a criticism that applies to anyone else.  But for me, the +1s I have been getting are perhaps a little too good for my ego and the -1 I got is a little too scary.  I guess I'm kind of a people pleaser.  But, for myself, I'm probably best off if I can somehow opt out while still participating in the many interesting discussions on this website.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 04:46:52 PM
Thanks.  One thing I've learned from community organization and advocacy is the value of candor.  I have a fair amount of local street cred with government officials, ordinary trans* people, and others.  That's important because without it, I'm worthless.  I am supposed to do a trans* training for the local human rights commission in the spring, for example, and I'm worthless if they are just rolling their eyes.  But I have gained that by the fact that people know when I talk to them, I will be frank while trying not to be mean, and I will tell the pm the truth as best I can see it.  I may be wrong and people may not like what I have to say.  I may not even always make sense.  But they know at least I'm always honest.  I always tell what I really think.

I realized as I was writing the original post that I was really getting fearful about the number of -1s that I was going to attract if I pressed the "post" button.  So I figured I'd better do something to take myself out of it.  It's not meant as a criticism that applies to anyone else.  But for me, the +1s I have been getting are perhaps a little too good for my ego and the -1 I got is a little too scary.  I guess I'm kind of a people pleaser.  But, for myself, I'm probably best off if I can somehow opt out while still participating in the many interesting discussions on this website.

You really have nothing to be afraid about.  Everyone that's trans realizes there are differences in socialization of someone who is cis and that's not meant to be an insult.  As a trans person that grew up with two sisters, I definitely can see that the way one is raised and treated because of their gender can have profound impacts.  It was one of the harder aspects about my childhood to see my sisters go through things that I'd never get to experience and it was one of the things that introduced me to gender dysphoria.  At the end of the day, these things can create general differences in personality and character.  If someone starts to bicker at you for it, they really aren't being fair to you.  There is nothing transphobic about it.   

Quote from: learningtolive on January 11, 2014, 04:35:53 PM

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 04:16:10 PM
Well, like I said, I'm not doubting that. My experience as a masculine girl wasn't the same as other girls. But there does seem to be a big chip on the shoulder of some trans women like 'I was never girly, I was horribly bullied, etc therefore I never experienced male privilege' that is offensive to people born female. It's simply NOT THE SAME THING. And gives fuel to the idea that trans women are just 'failed men'. I mean, how many guys do you know who were 'losers' (to put it bluntly) who were constantly picked on and didn't end up women?

Being picked on for being girly has nothing in common with being a girl in society. In fact, it's just more proof the person picked on is seen as and being treated as male.

It is different from a ciswomen's experience, but I don't see why it should be offensive.  Being a fem "male" isn't going to be the same experience to being a cisgirl who receives a complete female socialization.  That's something I totally concur.  However, I was in the fem camp, and I always was seen as a gay guy or fem.  The way people perceived me definitely effected the way I was dealt with or treated.  But being seen or treated like a fem gay guy clearly is different than being a cisgirl. There not at all the same.  I just would say it's also quite different from being treated like a cis or straight guy and getting all aspects of male priveldge.  Even fem guys are given male privilege to a degree but it is not always the same.  Personally, as a trans girl, if I had to label my socialization it was more like a gay guy (even though that's not what I am).  I still was brought up as male, but the circumstances and way I was treated was verydifferent than your typical straight or cis guy.  I guess I'm confused why ciswomen would take offense to the notion that gay men or fem trans girls had a different upbringing than most guys.  It's not taking away anything from their own upbringing or meaning that it's one of the same.

It's more the denial of male privilege. As if a poor white guy who is abused doesn't experience white privilege. Male privilege does not mean you are seen as an alpha male. It means you are seen as male period. Not female. Being abused does not change this. Think about it. It's the same as being white. If you're a poor white guy, you may be looked down on, but you're not seen the same as a black guy whatever you do (in the US at least).
I didn't ask to be white and I feel awful that others are profiled and treated badly because they don't look like me. But that's the way things are.

The denial that a trans woman (no matter how feminine in childhood) experienced male privilege is offensive to a lot of people born female.

I think we as the transgender community should figure out what is gender specific and what is not.
I know it varies from culture to culture but all that would mean its all in our heads, minus the feeling that our brains dont match our bodies.
I feel like i should have breasts and a vagina but long hair and clothing style dont seem all that gender specific to me. I mean in japan, anyone can wear a kimono.
In our culture, anyone can wear a sweatshirt and jeans.

There is a lot of mixing here of gender identity, gender roles, and gender expectations.

Roles and expectations have more to do with culture and society.  Identity is innate, as far as I can tell.

When I think about these things, I often have my own primate or "caveman" test, trying to remove the influences of society and culture, and see things in their natural state.  Archeology and anthropology tells us that gender roles were less important the farther back we go in (pre)history.  Primitive humans were mostly focused on survival.

To the extent that nature provided the mothering role for females with young children, some gender roles likely developed from that.  But, it seems that our primitive ancestors wore the same clothes (when they wore clothing), all gathered, hunted, cooked, and cared for the family, tribe, or clan, and organized themselves in a form of communalism.

I'm going to give my own take on this thing. If it seems a bit off-topic or "thread-drifty" then that's the way it goes.

Even though I grew up in a male body, I rejected any attempts at being forced into a male role. I hated sports, I crossdressed on and off for a long time (but only in private), I was never accepted as a male because people always knew that something about me was "off". The girls all knew this as well. So, I never fit in with the guys and I never fit in with the girls. The couple of friends that I had knew that I wasn't masculine and they knew that, again, something about me was "off' gender-wise. This is the way it was for my entire childhood and into my teen years. I don't think you could say that I enjoyed any sort of "male privilege" (unless being thought of as a "->-bleeped-<-" counts somehow, but I don't see how it would.)

I would say that trans girls have an upbringing that is uniquely theirs.  It is not the same as a cis male's upbringing, nor is it the same as a cis female's upbringing, it is a trans upbringing.  It is the same upbringing any female would experience if she was assigned male at birth.  It is very hard in its own way, but it does afford you the privileges of being male.  Even if you don't cash in completely on your male privilege (I didn't) still you are not taught from birth (practically) that your beauty is more important than your substance.  You are not made to feel your future is limited unless you break through glass ceilings.  I listen to how my siblings talk to their children.  They always remark how sweet and pretty their daughters are, and their sons are smart little geniuses.  It is starkly different, already, these children are all 2 years old or younger.  But as a trans child you do feel wrong and horrible about being in your assigned role.  You feel ostracized from humanity. You feel broken.  You feel like a disappointment.  All of these things together make our past unique, and different, than cis women's.

It is very similar, like FA says, to how being raised white is not the same as being raised black.  You wouldn't say that woman that was raised white is less a woman because of how she was raised.

Being trans doesn't not illegitimize your sex.  I think feelings of inadequacy create this need in many trans women to say their upbringing was more in line with their brain sex, that they weren't affected by male privilege, and that feeling of being deficient is the real problem.  We should stop feeling inadequate.  We don't need to squeeze our narratives a certain way to make ourselves real women.  Be proud of the kind of woman you are.  We have one of the most difficult paths to womanhood, and making it there is a huge victory that we should all feel amazing about.

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 05:09:53 PM
It is different from a ciswomen's experience, but I don't see why it should be offensive.  Being a fem "male" isn't going to be the same experience to being a cisgirl who receives a complete female socialization.  That's something I totally concur.  However, I was in the fem camp, and I always was seen as a gay guy or fem.  The way people perceived me definitely effected the way I was dealt with or treated.  But being seen or treated like a fem gay guy clearly is different than being a cisgirl. There not at all the same.  I just would say it's also quite different from being treated like a cis or straight guy and getting all aspects of male priveldge.  Even fem guys are given male privilege to a degree but it is not always the same.  Personally, as a trans girl, if I had to label my socialization it was more like a gay guy (even though that's not what I am).  I still was brought up as male, but the circumstances and way I was treated was verydifferent than your typical straight or cis guy.  I guess I'm confused why ciswomen would take offense to the notion that gay men or fem trans girls had a different upbringing than most guys.  It's not taking away anything from their own upbringing or meaning that it's one of the same.


It's more the denial of male privilege. As if a poor white guy who is abused doesn't experience white privilege. Male privilege does not mean you are seen as an alpha male. It means you are seen as male period. Not female. Being abused does not change this. Think about it. It's the same as being white. If you're a poor white guy, you may be looked down on, but you're not seen the same as a black guy whatever you do (in the US at least).
I didn't ask to be white and I feel awful that others are profiled and treated badly because they don't look like me. But that's the way things are.

The denial that a trans woman (no matter how feminine in childhood) experienced male privilege is offensive to a lot of people born female.

I see what you mean.  If you mean the societal privileges that being male provides someone, then you have a point.  I guess I would just say like the poor white guy the gay guy isn't as privileged, but it's not to say that there is no privilege or benefits from being a member of an in group.  Even though I was often bullied for being fem, I did have some of the social benefits that come from living as white male.  That I would never deny and it's always pissed me off when I've been favored for such a stupid arbitraty reason.  Of course, it's much more unfair for those who aren't given that privilege for those arbitrary reasons.  Nonetheless, privilege withstanding, being a gay or fem guy does present itself with other social problems and dilemmas that certainly are not fun to deal with.  It's not to take away from the male the benefits of male privledge at all, but it creates a different form of socialization that most aren't subjected too.  In any case, I suspect we are probably on the same page, but we are expressing it differently. 

I do think that while we should not minimize the role male privilege played in our lives, we also shouldn't minimize how difficult it was to be a trans girl growing up in the wrong role either.  They both are very difficult things, but also very different things.