Quote from: Jamie D on January 11, 2014, 05:22:33 PM
There is a lot of mixing here of gender identity, gender roles, and gender expectations.

Roles and expectations have more to do with culture and society.  Identity is innate, as far as I can tell.

When I think about these things, I often have my own primate or "caveman" test, trying to remove the influences of society and culture, and see things in their natural state.  Archeology and anthropology tells us that gender roles were less important the farther back we go in (pre)history.  Primitive humans were mostly focused on survival.

To the extent that nature provided the mothering role for females with young children, some gender roles likely developed from that.  But, it seems that our primitive ancestors wore the same clothes (when they wore clothing), all gathered, hunted, cooked, and cared for the family, tribe, or clan, and organized themselves in a form of communalism.

Exactly.
We need to get down to the bare bones of what gender is. Is there a difference between gender and sex? If so what is that difference?
I feel like the most evidence for transgender society is the brain. Its more than wondering why our bodies wont develop the way we expect. To me, its a whole other level. Finding myself in the world we live in. I feel i fit in here more than i did with any other group.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 05:31:37 PM
I would say that trans girls have an upbringing that is uniquely theirs.  It is not the same as a cis males upbringing, nor is it the same as a cis female's upbringing, it is a trans upbringing.  It is the same upbringing any female would experience if she was assigned male at birth.  It is very hard in its own way, but it affords you the privileges of being male if you are mtf.  Even if you don't cash in completely on your male privilege (I didn't) still you are not taught from birth (practically) that your beauty is more important than your substance.  You are not made to feel your future is limited unless you break through glass ceilings.  I listen to how my siblings talk to their children.  They always remark how sweet and pretty their daughters are, and their sons are smart little geniuses.  It is starkly different, already, these children are all 2 years old or younger.  But as a trans child you do feel wrong and horrible about being in your assigned role.  You feel ostracized from humanity. You feel broken.  You feel like a disappointment.  All of these things together make our past unique, and different, than cis women's.

It is very similar, like FA says, to how being raised white is not the same as being raised black.  You wouldn't say that woman that was raised white is less a woman because of how she was raised.

Being trans doesn't not illegitimize your sex.  I think feelings of inadequacy create this need trans people have to say their upbringing was more in line with their brain sex, that they weren't affected by male privilege, and that feeling of being deficient is the real problem.  We should stop feeling inadequate.  We don't need to squeeze our narratives a certain way to make ourselves real women.  Be proud of the kind of woman you are.  We have one of the most difficult paths to womanhood, and making it there is a huge victory that we should all feel amazing about.

Good points Jen.

Even as a masculine girl, I very much got the message that who I was didn't matter. My looks did. While there may be girls lucky enough to not be raised this way, most are. Boys are given way more empowering messages (even if they're treated horribly; I was). Studies have also shown teachers encourage boys more. Basically as a boy you're encouraged to live and be whatever you want.  As a girl, lip service may be paid to this, but you learn early on that if you're pretty you need to use that and if you're not, you better find something to be good at because you really don't count in society. I was one of the 'pretty ones'. There's a reason most female high school valedictorians are fat or otherwise not attractive. It's just such a huge difference from what any boys (feminine or not) learn.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 05:43:40 PM
I do think that while we should not minimize the role male privilege played in our lives, we also shouldn't minimize how difficult it was to be a trans girl growing up in the wrong role either.  They both are very difficult things, but also very different things.

Well said.

I want to give an example of how being raised male continues to affect how you deal with the world even after transition, when supposedly you have left male privilege behind.

"Why in the heck are you single?"  This is a question I get constantly.  The subtext being, something must be wrong with me because I am pretty and single (not everybody thinks I am pretty obv, but when they do, out comes that question.) A pretty girl apparently has all the tools she needs to get the best out of life she could dream of, i.e. be with a man.

I find that question so annoying, I can't even tell you, because the thing is, I never got the memo growing up - that attracting a good man was my way to a good life.  I was taught that if I want the best life can offer me I need to work for it and make a good life for myself. Sometimes I feel like everything I am told about how I should be these days revolves around my appearance.  I resist that whole notion, I think because it isn't second nature to think of myself that way.  If I was raised female, it would probably be another story.  So I would say my male upbringing still affects how I deal with things.  I am very independent in the face of the world thinking I should not be, and I don't know that I would be if I had been raised in the right role.  I am fairly certain, in fact, that I would not be.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 06:23:36 PM
I want to give an example of how being raised male continues to affect how you deal with the world even after transition, when supposedly you have left male privilege behind.

"Why in the heck are you single?"  This is a question I get constantly.  The subtext being, something must be wrong with me because I am pretty and single (not everybody thinks I am pretty obv, but when they do, out comes that question.) A pretty girl apparently has all the tools she needs to get the best out of life she could dream of, i.e. be with a man.

I find that question so annoying, I can't even tell you, because the thing is, I never got the memo growing up - that attracting a good man was my way to a good life.  I was taught that if I want the best life can offer me I need to work for it and make a good life for myself. Sometimes I feel like everything I am told about how I should be these days revolves around my appearance.  I resist that whole notion, I think because it isn't second nature to think of myself that way.  If I was raised female, it would probably be another story.  So I would say my male upbringing still affects how I deal with things.  I am very independent in the face of the world thinking I should not be, and I don't know that I would be if I had been raised in the right role.  I am fairly certain, in fact, that I would not be.

Very interesting example.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 06:23:36 PM

I was taught that if I want the best life can offer me I need to work for it and make a good life for myself. Sometimes I feel like everything I am told about how I should be these days revolves around my appearance.  I resist that whole notion, I think because it isn't second nature to think of myself that way.  If I was raised female, it would probably be another story.  So I would say my male upbringing still affects how I deal with things.  I am very independent in the face of the world thinking I should not be, and I don't know that I would be if I had been raised in the right role.  I am fairly certain, in fact, that I would not be.

This is what binds me and keeps me in limbo!

To be fair though, most women hate the single question too. Sure, some women internalize that you need to have a man or be pretty to be worthwhile, but many scoff at the notion just as someone raised male would. The question is just as alien and weird.

Quote from: caleb. on January 11, 2014, 06:54:02 PM
To be fair though, most women hate the single question too.

I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it .  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread

Quote from: learningtolive on January 11, 2014, 05:00:18 PM
You really have nothing to be afraid about.  Everyone that's trans realizes there are differences in socialization of someone who is cis and that's not meant to be an insult.  As a trans person that grew up with two sisters, I definitely can see that the way one is raised and treated because of their gender can have profound impacts.  It was one of the harder aspects about my childhood to see my sisters go through things that I'd never get to experience and it was one of the things that introduced me to gender dysphoria.  At the end of the day, these things can create general differences in personality and character.  If someone starts to bicker at you for it, they really aren't being fair to you.  There is nothing transphobic about it.

Alas, I wish that were true.  But another difference between the trans* community and the Cisco,Munich is a certain oversensitivity and even paranoia.  It's understandable.  When you are a downtrodden minority, you end up with wounds.  And those wounds make you sensitive to getting hurt in those spots again.  And you are always vigilant against it.  And maybe even angry about it.  That kind of experience in life does get to a person after a while.  And at a minimum, it leaks, or sometimes even explodes out.

But unfortunately that can make the trans* community one of the more difficult groups to work with too.  People on this board have been saying things like I said only to have others get upset at them for saying them.  That's what prompted me to wish we could actually talk about it.  And I've had others (not on this board yet) just respond to things I said by just totally flipping out and accusing me of off the wall stuff that has no connection to what I actually said.  And of course I try to keep a level head, but I  do t always succeed.  I have my own wounds and my own buttons that can be pushed to make me lose my cool and be over sensitive or even a bit bonkers.  I'm the same as anyone else in that regard.

So I have learned to be careful about what I say to trans* people I don't know well.  I've learned how to take risks too, but it am mindful of the fact that I am taking the risk and it may not be safe to say certain things.  And posting this topic was one of those risks.  And, like I said earlier in the thread, there are things that I do not feel safe enough to say.  Maybe as I become less new to this forum, I will grow more comfortable to say those things.  But some may just be things that I will not be able to put into writing or say aloud. 

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 07:09:13 PM

Quote from: caleb. on January 11, 2014, 06:54:02 PM
To be fair though, most women hate the single question too.

I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it .  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread

That makes sense. I guess it's the whole 'I was feminine as a child and abused for it, therefore I never experienced male privilege' kind of thing that grates. Because there is a big difference growing up a minority vs not. Especially for white males. No matter how much they didn't fit in or whatever, it is a lot different to those who grew up female. Being identified female at birth puts you in a minority across the world. That does have a huge effect on upbringing. It's not only your parents, but every adult you come in contact with. No matter how boyish you are, you can't escape it. You're born female, you're born as a second class citizen. No matter where you are in the world. And you learn this from a very young age. It's so pervasive, so subtle, you may not even realize it. But everything in your world supports it.

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it .  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread

Oh, I'm sorry! Of course I didn't mean that at all. I meant the majority of women in general, including cis women. Just trying to say I don't believe it to be a result of being raised as male.

Quote from: caleb. on January 11, 2014, 07:32:37 PM
Oh, I'm sorry! Of course I didn't mean that at all. I meant the majority of women in general, including cis women. Just trying to say I don't believe it to be a result of being raised as male.

I know what you meant, I was just being a pain .

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 07:29:38 PM
That makes sense. I guess it's the whole 'I was feminine as a child and abused for it, therefore I never experienced male privilege' kind of thing that grates. Because there is a big difference growing up a minority vs not. Especially for white males. No matter how much they didn't fit in or whatever, it is a lot different to those who grew up female. Being identified female at birth puts you in a minority across the world. That does have a huge effect on upbringing. It's not only your parents, but every adult you come in contact with. No matter how boyish you are, you can't escape it. You're born female, you're born as a second class citizen. No matter where you are in the world. And you learn this from a very young age. It's so pervasive, so subtle, you may not even realize it. But everything in your world supports it.

I agree completely.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 11, 2014, 03:36:05 PM

Quote from: FA on January 11, 2014, 03:09:08 PM
I realize some radfems try to hold this against trans women and that is unfortunate. But the remedy isn't to make excuses or deny your history.

But I'm not sure I understand this statement.  Are you addressing a generic "you?"  Stating that people should not make excuses or deny their history?  In that case I agree.  It's always best to deal in unvarnished reality.

Or are you addressing the statement to me personally?  In that case, I would say that I have been pretty candid up to and including the fact that I have acknowledged that there are some things I do not wish to share or discuss, which is my privilege.  I do take exception to the idea of someone applying their own values and preconceptions and accusing me of doing either of these things.  And I hope that I have not, and will not, do the same to others.

Sorry, just saw this post. No, it was a generic you. None of my posts were meant to say anything personal about you or your personal experience. And I'm sorry for going off on a tangent on what was a good thread. Sometimes I end up replying to posts like I'm replying to a million different posts on the subject through the years. I've caught myself doing it before. When you've been here for a long time, you hear the same recurring arguments. And sometimes you just start replying to old arguments. 

I actually agree with most of what has been posted. I had the same kind of thing, where I was an outcast and didn't get as much socialization as I should have. And I guess the same could be said for me that it didn't really 'take' like it should have. But the longer I live as male, the more I notice lingering ill effects of female socialization.

I know you said you didn't want to talk about male privilege, but I don't see how we can have a discussion on gendered socialization without it. Because most of female socialization is based on adopting your role as part of the lesser half of humanity. I guess that's why it's off putting to me when people say they didn't have male privilege, socialization, etc. I know I'm probably sounding kind of feministy  right now, but I only ever studied this kind of thing after transitioning and realizing I still needed to drop some lingering socialization effects. I can look back and see how much growing up female damaged me in ways I'm not sure how to fix. And I was never even abused or raped or experienced any overt sexism at all. It's far more subtle than that.

That doesn't mean male socialization is any good either. And I am glad I missed some things like being forced to suppress emotion and such.

When most people discuss socialization and upbringing and stuff on here, they tend to focus on mannerisms, clothing, behaviors, etc. But I've never seen the biggest difference in male and female socialization discussed - the point that girls are born and raised to belong to a lower caste. The sex caste. Even if a girl was given every advantage and encouraged by her parents to succeed and all that, she still grows up in a world that reinforces the fact that she's lesser. It's incredibly subtle and pervasive. And I didn't even notice it until well after transition and living as male. It's so normal, it's hard to notice.

And I'm not trying to be all 'poor me' or play oppression olympics or anything like that (because I hate when people do that). Just that this has been bothering me (especially since I've seen some 'I never experienced male privilege/socialization, I got beaten up...' recently though not in this thread). So unfortunately, Phoenix you just happened to make a thread on a similar subject when I was boiling over...
Sorry about that.

But if I made a thread on the subject, it'd probably be drowned out by comments from some trans women 'Wait, that's not my case. I was girly and beaten up!' and trans men 'Well, not in my case, I was masculine....'
What I'm talking about isn't about individual cases. And it is something nobody can escape. A person of color grows up differently in a racist world whether he was advantaged and never experienced overt racism or not. Now I agree that a young trans child's perception of this may be different from a cis person's of their birth gender. And I think mine was. But it's still an important distinction - being born into the 'sex caste' vs not. No matter the child's internal gender.

Okay, I'll stop now. 

PS. I don't remember if I was one of those that gave you an applaud here. Sorry if I was. I just forgot. 

The most insidious things in the world are the most subtle, happening beneath our notice.

Quote from: Jen on January 12, 2014, 10:39:49 AM
The most insidious things in the world are the most subtle, happening beneath our notice.

very true.

I just want to apologize to everyone in this thread. The subject has been bothering me and I kind of went off on a tangent last night without even thoroughly reading the replies. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like I was 'telling people about their own lives' or anything like that. And I certainly didn't mean to come off like a feminist 'check your privilege!' or anything. 

Pft, nothing wrong with being a feminist anyway .

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it .  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread

I actually got that question a lot before transition and still do. I guess you could say I was considered an attractive guy before transition and men would ask me why I was single and women would ask me why I was single. I think it comes down to how attractive people think you are if your a relatively attractive male people will wonder why your single just like they would an attractive woman.

Quote from: Heather on January 12, 2014, 11:29:50 AM

Quote from: Jen on January 11, 2014, 07:09:13 PM
I consider myself to be a woman, but I know you didn't mean to say I wasn't, so I'm being totally pedantic.  At least I admit it .  It's just one of those things my feathers stay on high ruffle alert for.

I guess it is true I don't know how I would respond to that question if I had been raised female.  Maybe I would be just as annoyed by it if I had been.  I guess that is sort of the point, in a way, though.  That I don't know, because I wasn't.  It is an alien and weird thing to ask somebody.  Now that I think of it I have a whole list of annoying, alien and weird things people, ahem, mostly guys, say to me now that I never heard before transition.  Maybe that is it's own thread

I actually got that question a lot before transition and still do. I guess you could say I was considered an attractive guy before transition and men would ask me why I was single and women would ask me why I was single. I think it comes down to how attractive people think you are if your a relatively attractive male people will wonder why your single just like they would an attractive woman.

That makes sense. I think it's probably more commonly asked to women though. I wonder if there are unattractive people who never get this question because people think they already have the answer! 

You may be right, Heather, but idk, it is something in their tone that irks me.   It feels like they think I need to convince them I'm not a psycho, where if that question is asked of a guy, it's more like why would you choose to be single?  Probably with the subtext of accusing him of being gay or something.  Cause like, guys get women if they want to and why wouldn't they want to, but if a girl can't get a guy, she must be broken in some fundamental way.   Like there is something wrong with me as a person, vs. something wrong with a single guy's priorities.

Quote from: FA on January 12, 2014, 11:44:12 AM
I actually got that question a lot before transition and still do. I guess you could say I was considered an attractive guy before transition and men would ask me why I was single and women would ask me why I was single. I think it comes down to how attractive people think you are if your a relatively attractive male people will wonder why your single just like they would an attractive woman.


That makes sense. I think it's probably more commonly asked to women though. I wonder if there are unattractive people who never get this question because people think they already have the answer! 

Its funny I was overweight a good part of my twenties and I still would get asked that. But I was asked ten times more after I lost the weight and got into pretty good shape. Actually it would annoy me a bit because people assumed I lost the weight for a woman and not for myself. And I think it also must be pointed out while men don't get the pressure women do to be in a relationship. They do start getting questioned if they are not in a relationship by a certain age. For me that age was 25 when my family started putting pressure on me to be a man and start a family.