I could really care less if someone is on HRT or having SRS unless of course they were trying to educate others on that topic without any real experience behind them.

Case in point. I went to listen to someone in the lifestyle speak this AM. He is FTM and has (in his words) just embraced his male identity. I have no idea if he is on hormones or not but he did mention a top surgery date. The only thing I was thinking about, outside the conversation of switching, was that he looked really cute and wondering if I could catch his eye. LOL

Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 11:21:24 AM

Now could somebody please explain to me why Transwoman A is '->-bleeped-<-r', more valid, more of a woman than Transwoman B simply because she takes a pill every morning?

Um, because you said so?

Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 01:56:52 PM
Nero, these characters are fictional, correct? (trans woman A and trans woman B).  I mean god forbid that I'm going to get upset about two people that don't exist or perhaps they may exist but their lives cannot be described in a post; therefore making a suggestion or giving opinions about these two people is just plain useless.  So now this TS lady is bed ridden?....this is just getting too confusing as more "stuff" is coming through the surface.

tink

I don't know. I was just trying to understand why Transwoman A can for all intents and purposes take HRT and be considered trans when she acts male or like a drag queen doing a bad impersonation of a woman, and why Transwoman B  who is not on HRt but acts female is considered not trans.
At first.
But then the time worn 'Ts who do not want to make physical alterations to their body make the excuse they are ill.'
Came into play. And this statement is scattered elsewhere around this site. And it does really upset me.

Not you specifically Tink, but many have said this - I just wish people would understand how hurtful that statement may be to a very ill TS who would have HRT and SRS in a heartbeat if they were physically able.

I understand your point Nero, but I also think that people should take responsibility for their own actions, grow up a little and learn to accept certain things which should be universally understood.  This is the reason why there are terms, classifications, diagnosis, therapists, HBSOC, symptoms, criteria.  To be honest, I'm getting really tired about the agendas and this melodramatic "no one understands me and every one who doesn't is an elitist" BS, because that is just what it is, BS.

tink

transwoman a is more ->-bleeped-<-
transwoman b is more woman.
ktnx
R

Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 02:32:31 PM
I understand your point Nero, but I also think that people should take responsibility for their own actions, grow up a little and learn to accept certain things which should be universally understood.  This is the reason why there are terms, classifications, diagnosis, therapists, HBSOC, symptoms, criteria.  To be honest, I'm getting really tired about the agendas and this "no one understands me and every one who doesn't is an elitist" BS, because that is just what it is, BS.

tink

Again, I don't see how any of this has to do with the topic. What should be universally understood here?
This topic is about why HRT is used to measure who's ->-bleeped-<-r than another. How does 'no one understands me and everyone who doesn't is elitist' come into play?  I'm bewildered by this post and the rest of yours in this thread.

And by your own definitions, your DSM quotes, Being on HRT is not a must for a diagnosis and it clearly states 'usually accompanied by the wish for HRT..' It doesn't even state that the desire for HRT is a must.
It also doesn't state anything about TS who are unable to take HRT due to illness.

And just on the rare chance - that anyone would attempt to turn this topic into a debate on me and my actions, and my life, I'll also have you all know. That I have already been diagnosed as an ftm transsexual, and as Primary (because I did ask her out of curiousity which group I fell into, assuming it was Secondary because of my bisexuality which she said didn't matter anymore).

So, I damn sure don't need anybody else's approval on my being trans or not. I would just like to know why HRT is the holy grail. Period.

hrt aside, tink makes a good point, If you dont undesstand someones viewpoint, your elitest. if your young, pretty. and can blend with society, your stigmatised in the transcommunity as 'elitist' as these people are so damn jelous. simple, they want to be in your shoes, and express this by namecalling.
Transition is no easier or harder for anyone. and nobody is better off or worse. its all s**t...
some can just bring the pain to an end. some cant.
R

Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 02:55:49 PM


So, I damn sure don't need anybody else's approval on my being trans or not.

and this is what everyone should do instead of asking for everyone's opinion because when that happens, issues arise, comments are said, viewpoints are expressed and an ugly can of worms opens... (BTW, I thought we were talking about the two TS ladies, not YOU, so I ask you the same thing, "again?")

Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 02:55:49 PM

I would just like to know why HRT is the holy grail. Period.

People will give THEIR opinion everytime you ask such type of questions.  Sometimes, they will say what you don't want to hear, but still it is what they believe.  So, I think that in terms of these issues, it is, again, up to each and everyone of us to find the right answers.  I believe that every one of us knows what we want and what we don't want, but expecting that others agree with our POV is sometimes a waste of time, Nero.  I say this because I have also experienced it in the past.  I've encountered more peace of mind deciding things for myself rather than comparing myself with other people's experiences and expecting some similarity between our needs or reasons.  My observation is that when agreement is sought in profound feelings such as GID, the opinions of others are totally irrelevant.  Do you know where I am going with this?  I hope so.

tink

Locked until such time as we can get back on original topic. 'Why is taking HRT the measure of tranniness?'

Posted on: August 04, 2007, 04:44:25 PM

---

Unlocked. Please stick to the title topic of the two hypothetical transwomen.

Posted on: August 04, 2007, 08:10:27 PM

---

Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 11:21:24 AM
Good morning guys and dolls (and Regina),

Serious question for ya:

Two transwomen, both in their 30s.

Transwoman A -  has been on HRT for some time, hasn't had SRS yet
Transwoman B -  has never had HRT, hasn't had SRS yet

Transwoman A - has been dressing as female (on a regular basis) for a few years (same time as HRT)
Transwoman B - has been dressing as female (on a regular basis) since high school

Transwoman A - completely non-passable
Transwoman B - not that passable, but more so than Transwoman A

Transwoman A - has affected and exaggerated behaviours and mannerisms, including amusing falsetto
Transwoman B - her behaviours and mannerisms come naturally to her

Transwoman A - comes off as male impersonating a female
Transwoman B - comes off as female through and through


Now could somebody please explain to me why Transwoman A is '->-bleeped-<-r', more valid, more of a woman than Transwoman B simply because she takes a pill every morning?

Side note - we don't know Transwoman B's motivations for not taking HRT. She could very well have a medical condition which prevents her from taking it at this time, or she simply may have chosen not to for reasons of her own.





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Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2007, 07:10:54 PMNow could somebody please explain to me why Transwoman A is '->-bleeped-<-r', more valid, more of a woman than Transwoman B simply because she takes a pill every morning?

Nero. it seems that you tend to ask these questions that have underlying assumptions which I can't understand.  I guess I don't get who is making the "->-bleeped-<-r" judgment, who is deciding this.  I wonder because I don't think anyone has the right to judge another, especially transpeople who have experienced the same kind of negative judgments from others and know how hurtful and damaging they can be.

I read and wonder where these judgments come from and why so many people seem to give them the weight they don't deserve.

I'm confused, I guess.

hugs & smiles (quizzical ones)
Emelye

Just delete this whole topic Nero - we do not need this devisive debate about who is better then who. We have had enough of these debates lately.

Alice

Well, from my perception this would be because (for me on the girl side of the fence) T = Bad, E = Good; I personally do not understand not wanting HRT; Keyword wanting. Ignorance is bliss is the best I can figure to be blunt. But this does not have a thing to do with "transness" in my view. Rather, T, to me, is very unpleasant. If a girl LIKES T flowing in her veins... EH? BUT, I seem to be an odd one (or perhaps delusional depending on whom you would ask) in that I can most definitely feel the T in my system, and the E for that matter. Short form, I don't like T. An HRT is a way to get T out and E in so that makes it good right? I am not, however one to base others off of my experiences as I have long ago figured out that, well, I am different. But, being a girl and liking T in your veins still baffles me but ^*shrug* If it works for them more power to them I say!

But, this said #B strikes me more of a grownup than #A, but, that was the point wasn't it?

P.s. #A, #B ... ya get it ya get it?

Transwoman A seems to be doing what any transsexual woman would do if in fact she feels that her inner identity doesnt fit her vessel (body).  Acting like a female and passing as one isnt what transsexuality is about.  The entire aspect of transsexuality lies in the mismatch between body and inner identity.  Fixing that mismatch through hormones and surgical procedures is what you graciously call tranniness.

Moreover, transwoman B appears to be more comfortable with gender roles and gender expression of her preferred gender but this is not sufficient to fill the gap between body and inner identity mismatch.

Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 02:43:03 AM
Transwoman A seems to be doing what any transsexual woman would do if in fact she feels that her inner identity doesnt fit her vessel (body).  Acting like a female and passing as one isnt what transsexuality is about.  The entire aspect of transsexuality lies in the mismatch between body and inner identity.  Fixing that mismatch through hormones and surgical procedures is what you graciously call tranniness.

Moreover, transwoman B appears to be more comfortable with gender roles and gender expression of her preferred gender but this is not sufficient to fill the gap between body and inner identity mismatch.

to the second power!  get it?

Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 02:43:03 AM
Transwoman A seems to be doing what any transsexual woman would do if in fact she feels that her inner identity doesnt fit her vessel (body).  Acting like a female and passing as one isnt what transsexuality is about.  The entire aspect of transsexuality lies in the mismatch between body and inner identity.  Fixing that mismatch through hormones and surgical procedures is what you graciously call tranniness.

Moreover, transwoman B appears to be more comfortable with gender roles and gender expression of her preferred gender but this is not sufficient to fill the gap between body and inner identity mismatch.

ive never heard something more offensive.
just because one person is slightly luckyer to not require surgery or hrt to pass as herself, does not mean she didnt feel dysphoric before transition... I technically dont require any surgery, omfg im not as good as you... why does requireing surgery make one trans? and to be honest, the hormones in someones bloody are minimal effect in our daily lives. most people never think about them. hrt only helps one pass, it has minimal bearing on you as a person in the grand scheme of things.
and no, acting and passing IS what transexuality is about, if someone behaves like a female from birth, identifys as female, yet is in a male body, are they not trans?

R