Quote from: amber1964 on January 11, 2014, 10:08:17 PM
Plenty of accepting cis people. Just, some things you have to experience to understand them. Like us.

She's right my friends are all biologically male or female but they don't question, Some of them have taken a sociology class at my school which talks about trans people and they have learned alot about me.

The one I really hate hearing is, "Well, I did _______ too and I'm not transgender."

This one really burns my ass. It's so invalidating and it always kinda comes off as an attempt at a "gotcha" point. I always counter by saying, "we can ride the exact same roller coaster in the exact same car at the exact same time, and both have VASTLY different experiences. You could have the time of your life waving your arms in the air while screaming for more, meanwhile I could be holding on for dear life hoping that my stomach is kind enough to oblige in not discarding all of it's contents while I scream in high-pitched terror. According to you, we should have both had the same experience since we did the same thing, so why didn't we?" That one usually leaves them thinking for a while.

"Thanks for trying to invalidate me.  You act as if I haven't spent considerable time thinking this through." - is a pretty effective response.

On a side note- if you think about it, cisgendered boys get showered with comments like those you describe at the start of this thread too- only switch 'trans' for 'not a real man'.  Male society is so hung up on validating masculinity... like it was some prize that only a few chosen ones may possess.  I guess the best result as a boy (trans or cis) is a thick skin.  Hope we can change this view.

Thanks everyone for all the support.   I'm sorry to hear so many of you have had to cut off contact with some of your family.

Thankfully though, I don't think it will come down to that with my mom and brother.  I think what triggered this onslaught was a couple things.  First, I cut my hair pretty short.  I've never cut my hair so short before, and my moms got a big thing about hair.  She was REALLY adamant that I don't cut my hair... but of course I did. XD  Then I got the binder I ordered in the mail shortly afterwards, and was wearing it around the house.  So, I've definitely been looking a bit different.  Oh man, my mom's face when she saw me with the binder on.  Definitely not very approving. XD 

But anyway, things have calmed down.  I've just been kind of keeping to myself these past couple days.  I think my mom felt bad though, because today I was down in the kitchen and she was telling me that she decided my hair looked really "cute".  Then she said something to the effect of, "You look like a very mature young woman."  Then she kind of corrected herself with, "I mean, young man!  I'm sorry!"  And she sounded sincere, so that was kind of nice.  I haven't asked anyone to refer to me with male pronouns yet, except for my sister, who is the most accepting.  But, I think it means shes trying.  So, I think it'll be alright.  I still think I'm going to avoid talking to them about it though.  I don't want to risk causing any more tension or starting another argument.  My brother was kind of joking about it again today, but I just ignored it.  I think if I just let it go for now and don't "shove it down their throats" as my mom coined it, they'll come around in their own time.

Quote from: Jeatyn on January 10, 2014, 08:53:50 AM
Wow this is all so me 6 years ago. Apart from the sexuality thing - I did the opposite - I like guys - always have. But I "felt gay" if that makes sense xD so I tried very very hard to be a lesbian and to be attracted to girls because I knew "straight" just wasn't me. Turns out, I'm a gay man, phew, solved that mystery

Haha, its funny how these things manifest themselves, isn't it?  XD  I'm still attracted to guys as well though, I guess you could just say my horizons have broadened.  I say I'm bi now, but really it comes down to personality for me.  Gender doesn't really matter.  Though to be honest, I've always kind of had that "gay" feeling too, although I could never really figure out why.  I've just always identified more with gay people than straight people for some reason, even though I always used to consider myself a straight female before I realized I was trans, so that was kind of confusing, feeling like I should be gay yet not feeling attracted to other women.  XD  My cousin and I used to joke that we were gay men trapped in the bodies of women, but in my case I guess it turned out to be kind of true.  XD

I think one of the reasons too though, is before I came out to myself, I kind of had this weirdly, almost misogynistic view of women.  I didn't really want to be around them.  Everything they did annoyed me for some reason.  I don't feel that way anymore.  I think the reason simply was because when I looked at other women, I saw what I was supposed to be, or felt like I was expected to be, and I didn't like that at all.  Now that I know I'm a man, and I'm NOT supposed to be that way, I can appreciate women for who they are rather than being angry with them for being what I don't want to be, knowing I don't have to feel like I have to try to be one of them anymore.

Quote from: Gene on January 11, 2014, 11:53:43 PM
The one I really hate hearing is, "Well, I did _______ too and I'm not transgender."

I got a lot of this right off the bat when I first came out to my mom.  That was really annoying.  Her favorite one was, "We're Texan! (because shes from from Texas, even though we live in Seattle XD) All Texan woman are kind of manly!  Doesn't mean we want to be men!" and "I like this and this and this too, doesn't mean I want to be a man!"

Thanks again everyone for the support and the suggestions.   I do know who I am now, and after a lifetime of trying to figure it out, I'm certainly not about to let someone else tell me otherwise!  Although it can be kind of confusing sometimes, because I do still have doubts at times.  I have these weird moments where I'm... alright with being a woman, I guess, and wonder if transitioning is right for me, but then of course I have those crippling, devastating, dysphoric moments where I can't stand it and wish like nothing else that I could just be a guy. 

Quote from: amber1964 on January 11, 2014, 10:08:17 PM
Plenty of accepting cis people. Just, some things you have to experience to understand them. Like us.

I think what I was getting at was even people who are accepting, still don't really understand it.

My friends understand enough.  They cannot walk a mile in my shoes- but they do agree those shoes fit me better and I wear them well.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 12, 2014, 02:09:27 PM
I think what I was getting at was even people who are accepting, still don't really understand it.

That's not always true as someone already pointed that out

Quote from: Emmaline on January 12, 2014, 05:47:44 PM
My friends understand enough.  They cannot walk a mile in my shoes- but they do agree those shoes fit me better and I wear them well.

I agree with this. My best friend is awesome, she has listened to me go on (and on, I'm afraid). She may not know EXACTLY what is going on and all, but what do you expect. I don't expect mind reading. I like what you said here.

--Jay

"You just hate yourself so much you want to be someone else."

I actually asked this from my therapist if it can be a cause of me being trans  I feel stupid now. She immediately replied loudly NO.


"You don't know what you want, but I do."

"You don't know what you are, but I do."

"You don't know who you are, but I do."

And this was my family at the beginning so much. Luckily they understand me now.

Quote from: Gene on January 11, 2014, 11:53:43 PM
The one I really hate hearing is, "Well, I did _______ too and I'm not transgender."

This one really burns my ass. It's so invalidating and it always kinda comes off as an attempt at a "gotcha" point. I always counter by saying, "we can ride the exact same roller coaster in the exact same car at the exact same time, and both have VASTLY different experiences. You could have the time of your life waving your arms in the air while screaming for more, meanwhile I could be holding on for dear life hoping that my stomach is kind enough to oblige in not discarding all of it's contents while I scream in high-pitched terror. According to you, we should have both had the same experience since we did the same thing, so why didn't we?" That one usually leaves them thinking for a while.

This is an awesome point. Wish I knew how to +rep a post (or maybe I can't do that until I have more posts).

100% gender stereotype-conforming is an unrealistic expectation, cis or trans. Comments like "I did/do/like ____ too and I'm not trans" seem defensive sometimes. Maybe for some cis people, calling the false genitals/gender equivalency into question makes them feel like their gender identity is suddenly in question too. "Wait, what do you mean a [penis/vagina] doesn't by default make me a [man/woman]? How am I supposed to know what I am, then? Must reassert familiar social norms!"

Quote from: Kaiden Liam on January 12, 2014, 06:09:25 AM

Haha, its funny how these things manifest themselves, isn't it?  XD  I'm still attracted to guys as well though, I guess you could just say my horizons have broadened.  I say I'm bi now, but really it comes down to personality for me.  Gender doesn't really matter.  Though to be honest, I've always kind of had that "gay" feeling too, although I could never really figure out why.  I've just always identified more with gay people than straight people for some reason, even though I always used to consider myself a straight female before I realized I was trans, so that was kind of confusing, feeling like I should be gay yet not feeling attracted to other women.  XD  My cousin and I used to joke that we were gay men trapped in the bodies of women, but in my case I guess it turned out to be kind of true.  XD

I think one of the reasons too though, is before I came out to myself, I kind of had this weirdly, almost misogynistic view of women.  I didn't really want to be around them.  Everything they did annoyed me for some reason.  I don't feel that way anymore.  I think the reason simply was because when I looked at other women, I saw what I was supposed to be, or felt like I was expected to be, and I didn't like that at all.  Now that I know I'm a man, and I'm NOT supposed to be that way, I can appreciate women for who they are rather than being angry with them for being what I don't want to be, knowing I don't have to feel like I have to try to be one of them anymore.

I was very close with one of my cousins all the way from toddler-hood and we bonded over the fact we both wanted to be boys funny thing is she was and still is much more masculine than I am, yet I'm the one transitioning and she seems quite happy with her gender now, she came out as a lesbian years before I came out as trans and I think everyone was expecting me to do the same thing

I felt the same way about women, I feel much more comfortable hanging out with guys still but women are much nicer to be around now that they don't assume I'm one of them, or try to give me tips on how to be more womanly that used to happen a lot

"You're a female, whether you like it or not"
Well yeah I can't change my chromosomes, but I can change the way thet people perceive me.
"Aren't you offended when someone mistakes you for a boy?"
That's called passing, and I want to pass for a guy.
"If you were a guy you would be a wimp"
Not all guys have to be dominant/aggressive.
"Stop wearing that binder.  You're hiding the fact that you're a woman."
Acually I'm showing that I'm a guy (mentally) by dressing like one.
"You'll never have a boyfriend if you dress that way"
I never plan on having a boyfriend anyway.

Quote from: Jared on January 13, 2014, 03:22:00 AM
"You just hate yourself so much you want to be someone else."

I actually asked this from my therapist if it can be a cause of me being trans  I feel stupid now. She immediately replied loudly NO.
And this was my family at the beginning so much. Luckily they understand me now.

Haha, I am glad to hear this. XD  One of the first things I thought when I started to consider that I was trans was that I don't really want to be a man, I just want to be something else, because, I donno, sometimes I wish I could be a cat or something, but I don't get dysphoria over the fact that I don't have fur. XD

Quote from: blink on January 13, 2014, 11:31:41 AM
100% gender stereotype-conforming is an unrealistic expectation, cis or trans. Comments like "I did/do/like ____ too and I'm not trans" seem defensive sometimes. Maybe for some cis people, calling the false genitals/gender equivalency into question makes them feel like their gender identity is suddenly in question too. "Wait, what do you mean a [penis/vagina] doesn't by default make me a [man/woman]? How am I supposed to know what I am, then? Must reassert familiar social norms!"

This is an interesting point.  I've never thought of it like that before.  But it makes sense, I suppose.

That's what gets me the most about it, I think.  The idea that I have to fit into some kind of stereotype to be considered a man.  Not only am I incapable of being a man, according to them, but for reasons that are completely unrealistic. 

My mom came out and told me a little while after I came out, when I could tell it was really starting to bug her, that her fear was that I was going to become a big, fat, smelly, bald guy who sits on the couch all day watching football and drinking beer.  I couldn't help but laugh.  It was so ridiculous.  I don't drink, I have never shown any interest in sports, and just because I decide to be a man doesn't man I'm just going to stop taking care of myself.  I am trying to get her to understand that I'm not going to become a different person, just a slightly different version of myself.  A better, happier, and more authentic versions of myself.  But I can understand that's probably going to take her some time to realize.

I watched a documentary about Chaz Bono a while back, called Becoming Chaz, which followed him during part of his transition.  It showed when he went to get his gender legally changed and when he came out of the building, the press were there of course, and they were asking him questions like, "What kind of strip club are you going to go to now that you're a man?" "What kind of beer are you going to drink?" and stuff like that.  There was a guy there with him, his lawyer I think, who is also FtM, and he commented to the camera, "We really need to re-evaluate how we view men in this country."  And he is so right. 

Quote from: Jeatyn on January 13, 2014, 06:02:27 PM
I felt the same way about women, I feel much more comfortable hanging out with guys still but women are much nicer to be around now that they don't assume I'm one of them, or try to give me tips on how to be more womanly that used to happen a lot

I am glad I'm not the only one who's felt this way.  I've always felt kind of bad about it, because it was never a conscious thing, and I would often wonder why I felt this way.  Because despite feeling uncomfortable around them, women have always been a lot nicer to me than men.  Usually if someone was commenting that I wasn't feminine enough, it was a guy, and not in a very nice way.  I've always thought of women as the fairer sex, and because of that wondered why I didn't want to be one, as there's a lot of things I like about women more then men.  For example, a lot of cis-guys are sexist jerks (or at least a lot of the one's I've met).  But then I realize I'm generalizing, just like my family is doing, and just because some guys are like that doesn't mean I have to be that way or am going to turn into that.  If I had a CHOICE, I probably would choose to be a woman (I mean, I've already got the equipment for it, after all XD), but of course, I don't have a choice.  I'm a man, that's just how my brain is wired.  I know that now, and I'm a lot happier with that realization than I ever was trying to be a girl.

Quote from: 4736251 on January 14, 2014, 06:17:06 PM
"You're a female, whether you like it or not"
Well yeah I can't change my chromosomes, but I can change the way thet people perceive me.
"Aren't you offended when someone mistakes you for a boy?"
That's called passing, and I want to pass for a guy.
"If you were a guy you would be a wimp"
Not all guys have to be dominant/aggressive.
"Stop wearing that binder.  You're hiding the fact that you're a woman."
Acually I'm showing that I'm a guy (mentally) by dressing like one.
"You'll never have a boyfriend if you dress that way"
I never plan on having a boyfriend anyway.

My mom was really horrified when when learned I was binding.  She started telling me I was "mutilating" myself and was going to give myself breast cancer.  @_@ lol  She also said that I was going to make my boobs flat and saggy and "No man is gonna want a girl with flat saggy boobs."  She really likes that "No one is ever gonna want you for this or that reason." line.  She uses it  a lot.  Of course, the next time I'm in a relationship with someone, It's going to have to be someone who sees me as a man, not a woman.  But she acts like its impossible to find someone who accepts me for what I am.  Thankfully, I know that's not true.  lol

On a side note, I would like to apologize that my posts keep ending up SO FRAKING LONG! @____@

Quote from: Kaiden Liam on January 15, 2014, 02:55:53 AM
Haha, I am glad to hear this. XD  One of the first things I thought when I started to consider that I was trans was that I don't really want to be a man, I just want to be something else, because, I donno, sometimes I wish I could be a cat or something, but I don't get dysphoria over the fact that I don't have fur. XD

LOL. that made me laugh really hard

Quote from: Kaiden Liam on January 15, 2014, 02:55:53 AM
She really likes that "No one is ever gonna want you for this or that reason." line.  She uses it  a lot.

That line is messed up, and it goes beyond being not true (plenty of trans people in happy relationships). It also implies that it's better to be in an arguably unhealthy relationship that hinges on one partner pretending to be someone they're not, than to be single. There are happy single people too, a person doesn't necessarily have to be in a relationship to enjoy life.

Quote from: Jared on January 13, 2014, 03:22:00 AM
"You just hate yourself so much you want to be someone else."

Actually got this one today, from a therapist (not mine, thank god) Only posed as a question. "Do you hate yourself so much you want to erase who you were? Is that it?" Somehow it's more insulting. I also got told I look like Audrey Hepburn  Bizarre thing to say to somebody out of the blue, but clearly this person needed to point out how "dainty and feminine" my features are 

A lot of it just comes from people not knowing how to deal with somebody they knew as one gender telling them they're actually the other. Their assumption was wrong, so they'll grasp at straws to try and rationalize their previous viewpoint. People get all bent out of shape about their entire idea of gender being much more simple than what it actually is. I do try to be understanding to a degree, you don't know what you don't know, until somebody tells you after all. They don't know about all the nuances that go into gender identity and socialization.

For people I'm really close to, it's a different story, but with professionals it tends to come from genuinely not having a clue. Because it's less personal they tend to get the idea a little quicker. In my experience at least

If you challenge the gender norms of a society, people tend to...well, not be very nice. They have to reinforce this notion that there are two camps: male and female and no matter what you say, they get defensive. Having a vag means you are female, a penis means you are male.

A lot of the flack that I got when I came out to my old church friends was of the "You can't be a guy because God didn't create you that way. As long as you have a vagina and female organs, you are a woman. Get right with God and deal with it!"

And so I left the church. There were other reasons for my leaving too though. A big one was that I couldn't get right with God and there is no way that you can just "deal with it!" without taking some major steps in your life. I spent 5 years being incredibly depressed, damn near suicidal and a lot of it stems from the fact that whatever I am, they (my old church and my old friends) could not accept me as such. I am _______, a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend and that's all I am allowed to be.

On another note, I had a conversation with a good friend of mine who is in the church. I always got lesbian and trans vibes from her and I used to tease her sometimes. She had been very sheltered as a child, homeschooled, raised in conservative Christianity and made a deal with God that she wouldn't date or give away her V-card until he sent "the one" into her life. She met a great guy when she a freshman in college and married him at 21. They seem happy enough.

One day, we were talking and she happened to mention how she used to wish that God had made her a guy. Then she just "accepted that I am a girl" and had this nice little life. She rejects traditional feminine roles, is very butch, knows a ton about cars and guns, plays video games, well, you get the picture. Sometimes I think that she is just pretending to appease everyone. That makes me sad for her...then I know that I do the same thing, only I haven't "accepted that I am a girl".

I suppose the whole "you'll never be a boy" argument hinges on whether or not the individual can accept their given female gender or not. Some of us can't and that's why we struggle. Most will transition at the point where they feel as if they are about to break. Others won't and will face dire consequences.

You have to do what is right for you, when it is the right time to do it.

QuoteI watched a documentary about Chaz Bono a while back, called Becoming Chaz, which followed him during part of his transition.  It showed when he went to get his gender legally changed and when he came out of the building, the press were there of course, and they were asking him questions like, "What kind of strip club are you going to go to now that you're a man?" "What kind of beer are you going to drink?" and stuff like that.  There was a guy there with him, his lawyer I think, who is also FtM, and he commented to the camera, "We really need to re-evaluate how we view men in this country."  And he is so right.

I watched this documentary as well. Where I'm from, stereotypes are still going strong. Yuppie rednecks = worst of both worlds. I like the idea of changing how we view men, but I am a realist. Certain segments of men aren't going to change as long as the Bible and Gawd! hold fast in their lives. Here in the Midwest (at least in the area I call home), QUILTBAG persons and culture are still pretty taboo. American flags and the stars and bars vastly outnumber rainbows. Beer, bikes, ball, and broads, as my father put it one time, that there's mens things.

Quote from: Darkflame on January 15, 2014, 01:40:15 PM
Actually got this one today, from a therapist (not mine, thank god) Only posed as a question. "Do you hate yourself so much you want to erase who you were? Is that it?" Somehow it's more insulting. I also got told I look like Audrey Hepburn  Bizarre thing to say to somebody out of the blue, but clearly this person needed to point out how "dainty and feminine" my features are 

A lot of it just comes from people not knowing how to deal with somebody they knew as one gender telling them they're actually the other. Their assumption was wrong, so they'll grasp at straws to try and rationalize their previous viewpoint. People get all bent out of shape about their entire idea of gender being much more simple than what it actually is. I do try to be understanding to a degree, you don't know what you don't know, until somebody tells you after all. They don't know about all the nuances that go into gender identity and socialization.

For people I'm really close to, it's a different story, but with professionals it tends to come from genuinely not having a clue. Because it's less personal they tend to get the idea a little quicker. In my experience at least

I'm thankful my therapist was so competent in this topic cause I really questioned myself at that time and she helped me to understand myself better.
I also had one person who always told me how good looking girl I am when I was out to her but not medically transitioning. I lived almost full time so it didn't feel good at all. I think it was on purpose, she wanted me to think I'll never be a "normal guy" whatever that means.

The one that I heard the most when I tried to come out as male the first time (or as not being completely straight, for that matter) was "You're just doing this for the f***ing attention. Shut up and just be normal." This was from family because I never told anyone else. This time around (though I am still not positive that I identify strictly as male because I have a few days here and there where I very much enjoy the femininity of my body) if I decided to try coming out as male again I know I am going to hear "you have a daughter. How can you be male if you conceived and gave birth to a child. Think about how it's going to affect her. You'll f*** her up." Just because I built a human being in my uterus (which I wish I didn't have most my days) doesn't mean that I am a woman. It just means that I am a parent. Whether I make the decision to transition or not I will always be her parent; I am both her mommy and her daddy already, so what difference does my gender make? As for screwing her up, no matter what she is being raised with as little gender bias as possible. She doesn't have to be female anymore that I do, and I am going to try my best to make sure that she knows, understands and accepts all people for exactly who they are.

Quote from: zombieinc on January 16, 2014, 08:36:50 AM
If you challenge the gender norms of a society, people tend to...well, not be very nice. They have to reinforce this notion that there are two camps: male and female and no matter what you say, they get defensive. Having a vag means you are female, a penis means you are male.

A lot of the flack that I got when I came out to my old church friends was of the "You can't be a guy because God didn't create you that way. As long as you have a vagina and female organs, you are a woman. Get right with God and deal with it!"

And so I left the church. There were other reasons for my leaving too though. A big one was that I couldn't get right with God and there is no way that you can just "deal with it!" without taking some major steps in your life. I spent 5 years being incredibly depressed, damn near suicidal and a lot of it stems from the fact that whatever I am, they (my old church and my old friends) could not accept me as such. I am _______, a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend and that's all I am allowed to be.

On another note, I had a conversation with a good friend of mine who is in the church. I always got lesbian and trans vibes from her and I used to tease her sometimes. She had been very sheltered as a child, homeschooled, raised in conservative Christianity and made a deal with God that she wouldn't date or give away her V-card until he sent "the one" into her life. She met a great guy when she a freshman in college and married him at 21. They seem happy enough.

One day, we were talking and she happened to mention how she used to wish that God had made her a guy. Then she just "accepted that I am a girl" and had this nice little life. She rejects traditional feminine roles, is very butch, knows a ton about cars and guns, plays video games, well, you get the picture. Sometimes I think that she is just pretending to appease everyone. That makes me sad for her...then I know that I do the same thing, only I haven't "accepted that I am a girl".

I suppose the whole "you'll never be a boy" argument hinges on whether or not the individual can accept their given female gender or not. Some of us can't and that's why we struggle. Most will transition at the point where they feel as if they are about to break. Others won't and will face dire consequences.

You have to do what is right for you, when it is the right time to do it.

I watched this documentary as well. Where I'm from, stereotypes are still going strong. Yuppie rednecks = worst of both worlds. I like the idea of changing how we view men, but I am a realist. Certain segments of men aren't going to change as long as the Bible and Gawd! hold fast in their lives. Here in the Midwest (at least in the area I call home), QUILTBAG persons and culture are still pretty taboo. American flags and the stars and bars vastly outnumber rainbows. Beer, bikes, ball, and broads, as my father put it one time, that there's mens things.

No offence but as a trans male I do believe there are two genders there is not third or fourth, But your biological sex doesn't make you who you are, You have to understand that, Gender queer, Bigender as well is others can sometimes be hard to understand, And to me it is not trying to be rude but you can't accept everyone to accept you or even support you.....