Quote from: amber1964 on January 11, 2014, 11:56:21 AM
I will conclude with this. I assume we are MTF transsexual women here. Not those born female bodied. So no proof is required, none of us are authentic women or the same as those who lived 100% of there lives correct bodied. Thats it. Nothing anyone posts or says will move my mind one inch from being intelligent and realistic or living in the real world.

And I say, put simply, the minute you forget this you are just asking for trouble. Not from me, I would stand up for anyone being bullied or picked on or hurt. But from others - its a recipe for disaster.

Other than that. I intended no harm to anyone. I am opinionated, work with young trans women at a shelter and am all too familiar with the thousand ways they all, and I, want every aspect of our bodies to meet some theoretical norm. Im also familiar with the extremes some go to for it. Me included.

To FA:

I was typing this and you posted before I could post. Im not going to cease using a legitmate word simply because someone is so childish and wants me to tediously review every word I say. So, do whatever you want. Authentic is a word I use regularly to dozens of trans women and no one has ever had a problem with it. If we have sunk to such a low level where living in reality is in itself an insult then no wonder cis people dont take us seriously. Think about it.

Oh I never forget I who I was born or what I have accomplished through my past gender....I have three wonderful children I helped create.

But to assume I will be nothing more than just a trans women is wrong, wrong, wrong!! This is the kind of thinking we try to get others past....well you can't use that restroom...because you're not an authentic women!...or your opinion doesn't really count cause your not an authentic women! Or I can't date you because your not an authentic women....

My God what is this forum for!! No it's not here to help people be delusional....I think we all know who we were and still are.....but is this the person we want all to know. No why the heck would I transition for!

I am upfront with who or "what" I am with doctors, teachers and anyone else that it may be needed. I don't like the fact I have to do it though because I feel I am something less than an authentic women...ya, I know I am....but I don't need it shoved down my throat  with everyone I meet. I especially don't want it to come from someone in the same shoe as I!!

I will admit I had a similar feeling when first starting transitioning....in fact I probably wrote similar posts to yours.

It has now been over 4 years since I started to transition and I am at a place I thought I would never be or at one time thought I wouldn't want to be. I did at first assume I would just be a trans women to the rest of society. It was society that made me feel like an authentic women and treated me as such....even against some of my own feelings.

I have come to defend anyone that say they feel almost as cis as any other women....I am one! But I know I can't change my past and I surely can't block all past memories out of my brain...therefore I will never completely feel cis gendered.

I feel that you have accepted yourself as a trans women because this has been how you have been accepted...this doesn't mean all of us have to have this same view.

Quote from: Jamie D on January 11, 2014, 12:16:55 PM
I appreciate your point of view, Amber, and understand where you are coming from.  And I don't think you meant any harm.

But, with the risk of getting off topic, what makes a woman a woman?  Her body?  Her mind?  Her soul?

Many of our MtF members will tell you that they feel authentically female, despite being born with a male body.  Many undergo surgeries to correct that "birth defect."  I do not doubt the authenticity of anyone here.

I hope we can take a collective deep breath and work out misunderstandings.  That is how a community functions.

I don't think you meant any harm either Amber. However for many years now including my childhood I've known that I am female. I don't think like a guy, talk like a guy, and for the most part hanging around guys makes me feel out of place. I'll agree that it's taking me a while to do something about it. But I consider myself no less female than cis women do. Everyone is entitled to their opinion though so I respect yours. I just don't happen to agree with it. In fact as is quoted above, I consider my being born in a male body a birth defect.

Back to our topic: I've always had small hands and can slide any bracelet I buy over them easily. Sometimes I have to watch they don't fall off my wrist. And, I  not only can touch my forefinger and thumb around my wrist, I can touch my thumb with my pinky finger around my wrist easily. That should give you an idea of how small my wrists and ankles are, lol!

Quote from: amber1964 on January 11, 2014, 09:58:37 AM
Nothing hurtful about it honey, its sensible and just the way it is. The negative feedback was a little bit much tho. We should never kid ourselves into thinking that we are exactly the same as someone born with a female body. A vagina created by plastic surgery is a huge comfort, but its not the same as being born with one. Any time any of us spend living a male life creates a degree of disonance. So, we are female and we are women but not quite the same mentally and not even close to the same physically as someone born that way.

So, the intelligent answer is that we live authentically to ourselves, each as best they can. But we are not authentically female, its just part of who we are. Its not a negative or unkind, its just how it is. Saying otherwise just makes you sound silly and young (which you are obviously).

My apologies Jenna, the negative feedback was not from you. And the second parapgraph is aimed at my detractor, you know who you are. Life will be a whole lot easier for you if you dont look for offense where none is intended.

My gender counselor has made this very point to me. I believe she did so as not to set up unrealistic expectations and potential harm down the road. I think it's something everyone in our situation should have a solid grasp with, regardless of how they finally choose to deal with it.

So, we are female and we are women but not quite the same mentally and not even close to the same physically as someone born that way.

Quote from: Nikko on January 11, 2014, 01:42:10 PM
My gender counselor has made this very point to me. I believe she did so as not to set up unrealistic expectations and potential harm down the road. I think it's something everyone in our situation should have a solid grasp with, regardless of how they finally choose to deal with it.

Is this something we don't realize already? I like to remind myself of this every spare minute of the day!!!!

Although I don't agree with a therapist trying to push this type of thinking I agree that "some" people or at least ones early in transition may need to be reminded of this....I don't think it helps to tell someone that talks and looks like a lumberjack, that they are just like all other women.

My last therapist had to try and convince me otherwise....I was already a year and a half FT and much of my stress was caused by this feeling of not being "authentic". My first session with her she wasn't even sure I was trans....and the more her and I talked we begun to realize I was a woman....almost all that we talked about were everyday issues most women or people in general are concerned about.

I suppose she could of preached to me that I was being delusional and that I will never be a woman....but this is not who she seen or knew. But even if I wasn't a naturally looking and acting women she still wouldn't of emphasized this "old" way of thinking!

wow, I always felt I was female. I even dream that I walk around female. I can't do the thumb and fore finger thing though, partly because I have calcium deposit built up on my bones from an arthritic condition , but my 2nd and 4th digit are of equal length. I think I'll just go with the concept of being hard wired and leave it at that.

I feel the same way Stephanie. I've always felt female. Does that make me dilusional, no. I thought the OP was interested in hand size anyway. This thread has sort of gotten sidetracked.

Quote from: Allyda on January 12, 2014, 05:20:04 PM
I feel the same way Stephanie. I've always felt female. Does that make me dilusional, no. I thought the OP was interested in hand size anyway. This thread has sort of gotten sidetracked.

Ya I was the OP but things got out of hand because someone thought I posted this for the intent that it made me more female....that was not the case at all!! it was meant to have some fun and to see if anyone else besides myself and many other cis females can barely do it.

I posted it as a similar thought of the digit thing though not as scientifically.....heck my 16 year old son can wrap all his fingers around his wrist to his thumb.....including his pinky.....but he is a skinny minny

By the way what finger do you consider your fore finger??? I know about the index, middle, ring and pinky....thats four...did you mean to say imply all four....

I think it's the longest one, but unsure

Quote from: Just Shelly on January 12, 2014, 06:28:54 PM
Ya I was the OP but things got out of hand because someone thought I posted this for the intent that it made me more female....that was not the case at all!! it was meant to have some fun and to see if anyone else besides myself and many other cis females can barely do it.

I posted it as a similar thought of the digit thing though not as scientifically.....heck my 16 year old son can wrap all his fingers around his wrist to his thumb.....including his pinky.....but he is a skinny minny

By the way what finger do you consider your fore finger??? I know about the index, middle, ring and pinky....thats four...did you mean to say imply all four....

My index is my forefinger. I'm like your cousin though, I can wrap all of my fingers around my wrist and touch my thumb almost overwrapping it with my pinky easily. The rest actually overlap my thumb by a great deal.

I don't doubt that you are thin....I have read other posts you wrote.

But I also think you may have long fingers....to overlap with the pinky is very odd...not only because it is the shortest finger but because of the angle you have to position your hand.

Now if you really want to prove your a women LOL

Take a standard wooden kitchen chair and position it about 2 inches away from the wall....stand in front with head against the wall and reach down to pick up seat at the seat part....now stand up while holding up the cahir. Only women can do this for some reason. I heard about this many years ago when I was a different person and I couldn't do it then,  I can now. LOL

The chair has to be a certain height and one of the standard type....you also have to have it a certain distance from the wall could me more or less than 2 inches??

Oh I also had another test today at work...LOL a coworker  (man) was fidgeting around with a plant at work trying to make it stand up straight...I told him maybe the tree was gay and it wanted to be that way LOL he looked at me strange and said how is gay the opposite of straight...I said it just came to me. We then asked two other people at different times that happened to be walking by what the opposite of straight was....the first was a women and she thought a second and said gay....the other was also a women and she also said gay. The man and another male coworker just thought we were all weird...LOL

Quote from: Just Shelly on January 12, 2014, 06:56:01 PM
I don't doubt that you are thin....I have read other posts you wrote.

But I also think you may have long fingers....to overlap with the pinky is very odd...not only because it is the shortest finger but because of the angle you have to position your hand.

Now if you really want to prove your a women LOL

Take a standard wooden kitchen chair and position it about 2 inches away from the wall....stand in front with head against the wall and reach down to pick up seat at the seat part....now stand up while holding up the cahir. Only women can do this for some reason. I heard about this many years ago when I was a different person and I couldn't do it then,  I can now. LOL

The chair has to be a certain height and one of the standard type....you also have to have it a certain distance from the wall could me more or less than 2 inches??

Oh I also had another test today at work...LOL a coworker  (man) was fidgeting around with a plant at work trying to make it stand up straight...I told him maybe the tree was gay and it wanted to be that way LOL he looked at me strange and said how is gay the opposite of straight...I said it just came to me. We then asked two other people at different times that happened to be walking by what the opposite of straight was....the first was a women and she thought a second and said gay....the other was also a women and she also said gay. The man and another male coworker just thought we were all weird...LOL

Oh I've been doing that trick for years ever since I first saw it on an old All In The Family episode, lol. I've always been small topside. The reason most men can't do this is because of the weight in their upper bodies throws them off balance when they try to stand holding the chair. My grandpa used to call me "spider legs," cause I'm all legs and arms without much in between, lol! I may only be 5-5, but I have long legs and arms for someone of my height.