Quote from: Jen on January 12, 2014, 11:53:18 AM
You may be right, Heather, but idk, it is something in their tone that irks me.   It feels like they think I need to convince them I'm not a psycho, where if that question is asked of a guy, it's more like why would you choose to be single?  Probably with the subtext of accusing him of being gay or something.  Cause like, guys get women if they want to and why wouldn't they want to, but if a girl can't get a guy, she must be broken in some fundamental way.   Like there is something wrong with me as a person, vs. something wrong with a single guy's priorities.

Also it could be the reason they are asking when your a male is to find out if your gay or not without directly asking. But with women it's different men ask because they suspect if your an attractive woman and your single they think there're has to be a reason your single not that you choose to be single.

Exactly

Hi, FA, please have no worries about me.  No offense was taken.  I actually appreciate you chiming in with a different perspective and I hope to hear more from you.  But I do appreciate you clarifying that you were not pointing at me personally. 

I'm actually perfectly up for a chat about male privilege.  I just don't find the term itself to be very helpful.  But the things the term tries to get at are very real.  I have a pair of experiences that I like to share to illustrate how complicated it is, at least in my life. 

They both happen on the road to Death Valley, which is one of my favorite vacation spots.  I like to fly to LAX, stay the night, and then drive to Death Valley.  The road I take leads through Panamint Valley, a gorgeous, but totally isolated valley that is very similar to Death Valley itself.  Very hot desert, hardly any people around, and no cell phone service.  And both of me (the male and female versions) have been there. 

One year, female me went and saw wild flowers growing in the Panamint valley.  I pulled over to take some photos.  At the moment I started to get out of the car, another car was passing in the opposite direction.  Immediately the blinker came on and the (male) driver started to pull off the road right behind me.  I figured that this likely meant that he thought I had broken down and was stopping to help.  So I held up my camera where he could see it and realize I had just stopped to take photos.  The turn signal promptly went off and he kept going on his way.  Now, of course, there's another possibility.  The image of damsel in distress could have looked more like a potential victim.  If he had stopped and gotten out when I held up my camera, I would have gotten back in the car, started it, and left because of worry about my safety.

Another year, male me went and actually did get in trouble in the Panamint Valley.  I had pulled over to take photos of the area on a particularly gorgeous day.  When I tried to leave, my car got stuck in the sand and gravel on the side of the road in about 110 degree heat.  A few other cars did pass by while I was trying to get unstuck.  But no one stopped to help.  Eventually I did get myself unstuck and I continued on my way.  And of course eventually someone probably would have stopped.  But I would not have had to wait long in that heat to be injured by it and it's very questionable whether anyone would have stopped by then.  But when eventually someone did stop, it would be less likely that they would try to harm me. 

It's interesting to me that these two experiences are basically mirror images of one another.  The possibilities are basically binary:  someone either stops or they don't.  But the outcomes are opposite:  someone is more likely to stop in one case, but the risk is greater if they do.  In the other case, someone is less likely to stop, but the risk associated with the stopping itself is lesser. 

I understand privilege and detriment to be about how others treat you better or worse in a different situation.  Experiencing those privileges and detriments is only one part of learning to be in the world.  But it is a substantial part of it.  So which version of me was more privileged here?  I'm not sure.  It seems to me that the greater likelihood of someone stopping for female-me is a female privilege that could have saved my life in other circumstances.  But the possibility of being raped is a female detriment that could have severely damaged or even ended my life.  The lesser likelihood of someone stopping for male me is a male detriment that could severely damaged or even ended my life.  But the lesser likelihood of being raped by someone who did stop was a male privilege.  So each version of me, based on gender, had a different privilege and a different detriment.  But which was more privileged?  I honestly have no idea.  So how does male privilege fit in here?

An essay by Raven Kaldera that I read ages and ages ago also contains interesting thoughts on male privilege.  The essay is here and the bit on male privilege is number 2: 

http://www.ravenkaldera.org/gender-archive/feminist-on-testosterone.html

I too would actually like to talk about this issue.  But I'm still working out how best to talk about it in a way that is more nuanced than "all men are privileged above all women."  One of my Facebook friends posted an essay that talks about these issues mainly in a racial context, but proposes discussing "intersectionalities" instead of "privileges."  Perhaps that is a way to get beyond it.  The essay is here, if you're interested:

http://thefeministbreeder.com/explaining-white-privilege-broke-white-person/

Quote from: FA on January 12, 2014, 11:02:01 AM
very true.

I just want to apologize to everyone in this thread. The subject has been bothering me and I kind of went off on a tangent last night without even thoroughly reading the replies. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like I was 'telling people about their own lives' or anything like that. And I certainly didn't mean to come off like a feminist 'check your privilege!' or anything. 

No need to apologize.  I would say growing up seen as a "gay male" is a very different thing than growing up as a woman, so I take no offense to it.  In fact, it was an enlightening conversation.

Quote from: Jen on January 12, 2014, 11:13:53 AM
Pft, nothing wrong with being a feminist anyway .

Yeah, I think most feminists get a bad rap because of the extremists.  Most feminists have a point that needs to be considered.

Quote from: Heather on January 12, 2014, 12:23:50 PM
Also it could be the reason they are asking when your a male is to find out if your gay or not without directly asking. But with women it's different men ask because they suspect if your an attractive woman and your single they think there're has to be a reason your single not that you choose to be single.

Yeah, I always get people using the dating question to get confirmation on my sexuality.  It's a way to skirt around the issue.  With my sister who has been single for a while, they go all crazy and need to know why she doesn't have a boyfriend.  As though something is really wrong.  While with me, they already kind of assume as to why I'm single. 

Quote from: FA on January 12, 2014, 11:02:01 AM
very true.

I just want to apologize to everyone in this thread. The subject has been bothering me and I kind of went off on a tangent last night without even thoroughly reading the replies. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like I was 'telling people about their own lives' or anything like that. And I certainly didn't mean to come off like a feminist 'check your privilege!' or anything. 

Whenever I say something controversial or upsetting to anyone, it seems like I start thinking about it and find some way to make it my fault, no matter how reasonable or fair I actually was, and no matter how outlandish the other person's reaction was.  I'm not going to say anything about the gender based tendency in that . . . .

But I just want to say that I don't think you have anything to apologize for.  You're fine.   I hope I didn't send an "it's your fault" vibe to you.  If I did, I'm sorry.

Boy me got:

You're a really cute guy.  You deserve to be dating someone.

Girl me gets:

You're a really pretty girl.  You deserve to be married.

I don't think the difference between pretty and cute matters much.  But the difference between being told I should be dating someone and being told I should be married seems to indicate a certain difference . . . .

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2014, 12:38:50 PM
Whenever I say something controversial or upsetting to anyone, it seems like I start thinking about it and find some way to make it my fault, no matter how reasonable or fair I actually was, and no matter how outlandish the other person's reaction was.

I am so much the same way

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 12, 2014, 12:38:50 PM

Quote from: FA on January 12, 2014, 11:02:01 AM
very true.

I just want to apologize to everyone in this thread. The subject has been bothering me and I kind of went off on a tangent last night without even thoroughly reading the replies. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like I was 'telling people about their own lives' or anything like that. And I certainly didn't mean to come off like a feminist 'check your privilege!' or anything. 

Whenever I say something controversial or upsetting to anyone, it seems like I start thinking about it and find some way to make it my fault, no matter how reasonable or fair I actually was, and no matter how outlandish the other person's reaction was.  I'm not going to say anything about the gender based tendency in that . . . .

But I just want to say that I don't think you have anything to apologize for.  You're fine.   I hope I didn't send an "it's your fault" vibe to you.  If I did, I'm sorry.

Yeah, I'm like that too. Especially since transitioning, which is odd. Guys aren't supposed to care about that sort of thing.

Well, I honestly went on kind of a tangent after having little sleep and didn't even read all the replies. So I felt bad about that and I was worried I may have offended some of you, especially the ladies. I know this whole thing about socialization and privilege is sometimes held against trans women. And I really didn't want to come off like that.

Basically, once AFAB (assigned female at birth) people realize the full extent of what that means and how that has affected them, there can be a lot of bitterness. So sometimes, there's kind of a knee jerk reaction. I seem to have adopted some feminist style views since living as male. When I was actually kind of sexist before - the very idea that female cops existed used to piss me off; I hated that they would call a female in to frisk me. I felt a lot more violated and would rather the guy do it even if he got too frisky - it would probably just have broken the tension. But that was probably due to my history of never having been abused by males and bullied by females.

But anyway - I don't know who this person is spouting feminist style views - certainly can't be me! 

Oh my - Phoenix, you have made my day! Yours was a fantastic OP! Subsequent offerings have been wonderful and - perhaps more importantly - the exchanges between us fantastic! This is an amazing thread! I appreciate this so much, I am NOT going to offer you a +1!

But I will try to slip my own two cents onto the table:

Though I have throughout my life outwardly appeared male to the world, my inner sense of body, spirit, and mind leans more toward female. This situation fluctuates over time, but the preceding generally summarizes my experience.

Because of this, I have been perceived as male, treated as male, socialized as male, and privileged as male. Much of this I have not liked. Much of this has never 'fit'. Much of this I have denied, ignored, and/or resisted. Much of this has hurt and confused and angered me deeply.

Given a choice, I would have elected to be perceived as female, treated as female, socialized as female, and privileged as female. But this truth is, I wasn't. I was perceived, treated, socialized, and privileged male. In spite of any inner sense I might have, in spite of any yearnings or preferences I might feel, this fact has deeply and profoundly shaped the person I am. Even if I were able to snap my fingers right now and become 100% bodily female, I feel I would not be the 'equivalent' of a cis female by virtue of this fact.

This situation frequently depresses me and I have given this a great deal of consideration. To cut a long story short, I have come to believe the foundational source of this depression is the issue of legitimacy. Our culture legitimizes only two genders: male and female. One is either a man or a woman, and that's about it. If one does not 'fit' within this schema, if this polar conception of gender does not work for some people, well it remains the only game in town - so such folk are very much out of luck! Put another way, such folk are left socially illegitimate - not really seen or acknowledged, not really granted a 'place' in the prevailing order.

Somewhat surprisingly, in spite of the fact this way of thinking leaves so many of its own people out/unacknowledged, the trans community seems, for the most part, to function under this very same binary umbrella. Hence, in my opinion, the recurring debates about 'real' men and women - debates that, from this perspective, are not really about gender, but instead express much deeper concerns about legitimacy, about having a socially sanctioned place. Such debates, then, are about our very existence! About our ability to say, 'I'm here!' and be recognized/seen in doing so. This, perhaps, explains why these exchanges can become so very heated!

All this said, then, perhaps our greatest - and most fruitful - challenge as trans folk lay not in the 'real' debates, but in finding ways to socially legitimize a broader range of gender experience. So that people like myself can say, 'Well, I'm not a cis man and I'm not a cis woman, but I am a ______' So that the world around me can hear my words, nod its head, and open it's arms wide in welcome.         

     

I believe that a trans* person is, first and foremost, a person.  That we all differ biologically and in our social experiences from cispeople is a reality, but it does not trump the fact that we are all people. 

It is also a reality that I wish my iPad would stop replacing commas with exclamation points . . . .

I saw this topic after reading ThePhoenix's snippet in another thread...

You know, I read it, and I found myself reacting so strongly to everything. It stirred up so many emotions, so many things I wanted to say, so many subtleties that I have seen over and over again that also grate for me personally. I'm posting because I feel compelled to, though I have an incredibly strong distaste for voicing my opinions usually. I don't like to argue, at all. I just really feel like I need to bare my soul on this topic...

I can't really give my life story, but being a victim of CSA, severe neglect and isolation and resulting agoraphobia, childhood obesity and related bullying, an elementary level education and accompanying lack of life skills, lifelong codependency, which all robbed me of a sense of identity, faith in life and myself, and I think of a real sexuality beyond plain martyrdom....

I don't have an agenda. Honestly, I don't. I just don't think male privilege is a catch all term, I don't think male socialization is equal or equally important/influential in every life, I don't like how the terms feel weaponized, and a life is just a very complex experience. I don't think any of that matters. If I could feel the least bit empowered by whatever advantages I had, I would be ecstatic, but I can't. I can't value it at all because I didn't get anything from it. Or if I did, it was not helpful enough that I can detect it. I am a low-functioning person, struggling every day to obtain a very basic level of self-reliance. I just wanted to share this because personally, I experience horrible guilt when I am made to feel privileged (-->ignorant, undesirable, offensive... disgusting is what goes through my head) and I just don't understand why. I honestly feel like a lot of FAAB people use those experiences to have a privileged status on the topic of privilege itself. Like the right to define any personal experience as being disadvantaged relative to an ideal norm that, frankly, they have never experienced the other side of either. And it works, I feel like ->-bleeped-<- and like a horrible person, I feel wrong and shameful for even beginning to object, because I utterly do respect and regard all people as equals, (though I admittedly struggle with a fear of men) even if I also feel like it's just an incredibly loaded topic.  People shouldn't deny and misrepresent their past, but I feel that you also shouldn't parade a concept around in front of them that on a personal level can easily seem objectifying, mildly vilifying and that is provoking a spectrum of reactions which you can comfortably veto just because you have a general belief about their very personal experiences in life, which you have never experienced. I just don't like it. It just makes me uncomfortable. Maybe a lot of MAAB people are everything that FAAB people believe they must be, and are all immediately complicit as privileged people, but being automatically included in this thing that honestly feels like it has nothing to do with me, who has always struggled to simply feel like a human being, and who has always struggled to feel worthy of the most basic affection or approval from anyone at all, just feels dirty, invalidating and really unpleasant. I don't know. I just hate these generalizations that don't make anyone feel better anyway. /rant. I'm really sorry. ><

Quote from: sad panda on February 05, 2014, 07:46:06 AM
I honestly feel like a lot of FAAB people use those experiences to have a privileged status on the topic of privilege itself. Like the right to define any personal experience as being disadvantaged relative to an ideal norm that, frankly, they have never experienced the other side of either. And it works, I feel like ->-bleeped-<- and like a horrible person, I feel wrong and shameful for even beginning to object, because I utterly do respect and regard all people as equals, (though I admittedly struggle with a fear of men) even if I also feel like it's just an incredibly loaded topic.  People shouldn't deny and misrepresent their past, but I feel that you also shouldn't parade a concept around in front of them that on a personal level can easily seem objectifying, mildly vilifying and that is provoking a spectrum of reactions which you can comfortably veto just because you have a general belief about their very personal experiences in life, which you have never experienced. I just don't like it. It just makes me uncomfortable. Maybe a lot of MAAB people are everything that FAAB people believe they must be, and are all immediately complicit as privileged people, but being automatically included in this thing that honestly feels like it has nothing to do with me, who has always struggled to simply feel like a human being, and who has always struggled to feel worthy of the most basic affection or approval from anyone at all, just feels dirty, invalidating and really unpleasant. I don't know. I just hate these generalizations that don't make anyone feel better anyway. /rant. I'm really sorry. ><

Hi sad panda,

I don't know if this is in reply to my posts, but if so, I don't feel that way at all. I think the concept of male privilege has become so loaded and abused by some that it's nearly impossible to have a real conversation about it. It's not really 'privilege' in a sense, but more of the lack of a certain minority status. It's a really charged issue, especially for trans folk. 

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 08:59:55 AM
Hi sad panda,

I don't know if this is in reply to my posts, but if so, I don't feel that way at all. I think the concept of male privilege has become so loaded and abused by some that it's nearly impossible to have a real conversation about it. It's not really 'privilege' in a sense, but more of the lack of a certain minority status. It's a really charged issue, especially for trans folk.

I think that's true.

And those 'privileged' in the majority are a small minority... confused yet? Ya, me too.

I don't think my father felt very privileged growing up a sharecroppers son and going directly to WWII straight from high school along with his (male) buddies to get shot up. He earned far more from this country than was ever paid to him. My history hasn't been particularly 'privileged' either, I've earned everything I've gotten and often was denied even when I was the best, it's life. I'd say the majority fall in this category, so the concept of 'privilege' even if real for a small minority, can be a little offensive to some. Not to me, I just think it's an excuse more than anything. Either way, it doesn't seem to have much purpose, it can only hold back those that buy into it.

Quote from: Nikko on February 05, 2014, 09:31:46 AM

Quote from: FA on February 05, 2014, 08:59:55 AM
Hi sad panda,

I don't know if this is in reply to my posts, but if so, I don't feel that way at all. I think the concept of male privilege has become so loaded and abused by some that it's nearly impossible to have a real conversation about it. It's not really 'privilege' in a sense, but more of the lack of a certain minority status. It's a really charged issue, especially for trans folk.

I think that's true.

And those 'privileged' in the majority are a small minority... confused yet? Ya, me too.

I don't think my father felt very privileged growing up a sharecroppers son and going directly to WWII straight from high school along with his (male) buddies to get shot up. He earned far more from this country than was ever paid to him. My history hasn't been particularly 'privileged' either, I've earned everything I've gotten and often was denied even when I was the best, it's life. I'd say the majority fall in this category, so the concept of 'privilege' even if real for a small minority, can be a little offensive to some. Not to me, I just think it's an excuse more than anything. Either way, it doesn't seem to have much purpose, it can only hold back those that buy into it.

Yeah, I think the 'privilege' in male privilege, white privilege, etc is misleading and distracts from the point it tries to make - that there are inequalities in how women and minorities are treated as groups relative to those not in those groups. And of course intersectionality is very much a thing as well.

The concept of privilege actually works like this: "all other things held constant it is preferable in society to be male rather than female." See how that works? If you look at a chess board, white is better than black because white goes first, right? But would you say a white pawn is better than a black queen? Course not, that would be silly. But a white pawn is better than a black pawn. See?

The issue here is what we call intersectionality. And this refers to all the various alignments of privilege and disprivilege that intersect and compound in society. So you are a dude? That's cool. You are a cis dude? That's better. You are straight cis dude? Damn we are getting somewhere! You are a white straight cis dude? Honey, you got it going on. You are a rich white straight cis dude? Golden ticket!

But in reality it is usually a more complex dynamic than that, with a combination of advantages and disadvantages that create each person's life story. I mean: I grew up with the advantage of being perceived as a dude. Of course I did! But I also grew up trans. Ouch. That sucks man. No really. I'm also white and educated and middle class, which are all big, big wins. On the other hand I'm gay and disabled. Total fail.

Do I come out ahead or behind in all that? ...See that's probs the question you are expecting. But it's the wrong question. Because intersectional analysis was never meant to be used on individuals. The very concept of privilege we are talking about was never designed for case-by-case anecdotal study. It is a social theory. I.e. it is used for studying groups and tendencies within those groups. We can say, accurately, that being trans sucks in our society. That being a trans woman is worse. That being a black trans woman is worse than that. And we know this because of a statistical study that analyzed all that jazz. But that says absolutely nothing about say... Janet Mock's personal experiences.

So like... the whole conversation of "do I have male privilege because I grew up male?" is like... dumb. Feminism is about systems of oppression not whether random individual number 37 had x advantage in their life. Not only is it not really possible to figure that out with any degree of accuracy. It is also not worth the sweat. The goal here is to fix a larger problem. Women are treated like sex objects in our society, they earn less for the same work, their participation in governance is abysmal, and they are systematically kept in that state with limited options for escape. And when you start talking about the world as a whole, it gets so, so much bleaker: millions of missing women due to sex-selected abortion and infanticide, slave trafficking, corrective rape, genital mutilation, the list goes on and on.

This isn't about whether you were beaten up as a kid for "lacking male privilege" (hint: that wasn't the reason), and it drives me slightly batty every time I have to see these conversations. So in the thread's interest of honesty, here's some honesty, yo.

Finally, as to the thread topic: This again? Yes, everyone feels like an outcast in "trans society" as if that's a thing. Do you seriously think it is any way reasonable to expect anything else? We have SO LITTLE in common. Every single one of us comes from different backgrounds with different interests and different experiences. When I have something, anything in common with another trans person, I'm like, dude, that's awesome! Because it is that rare. No really.

Nobodies experience of being "the one unique special different trans person" is actually real. It's this thing we all created in our heads because we feel really really lonely. And dude, that I get. And I'm sorry. It is ->-bleeped-<-.

But we do our best to find commonalities, to find ways to communicate about the ONE thing that bonds us together. Awesome! But dude, if I want to socialize, I'll go chill with a bunch of other editors or something. Cause... duh?

Thanks FA and thanks Sarah7!

I think I lost my point somewhere. I totally get privilege and why it's useful to know on a sociological level. I just think it is personalized way too often and way too liberally. I don't mean to point fingers or anything at all, bc the first reason I thought of it was because I realized that *I* had done it myself. I had used a prejudice about MTFs to attribute someone's personal experience to a privilege they didn't even experience. That was ridiculous of me. I mean, I allowed myself to phrase it that way but where it was really coming from was my judgments toward trans women. It was not about privilege. It wasn't personal and it shouldn't have been made personal, and I really should have stepped back and used that to evaluate my own issues, because it was an indicator of my own issues. I'm trying to learn from that here.

Umh, similarly, I don't know, I think this happens a lot. And I think it has this unwritten potency when it's coming from a FAAB person especially. Not for any good reason. It just so happens that FAAB people's opinions are given more value, weight and legitimacy on this topic (in the sphere of their own typical experiences, which is totally fair, but also experiences they may have no personal understanding of).. I think it's easy to abuse without meaning to abuse it.

For example, I mean when talking about MTF trans people's experiences and communication style, I don't think it is responsible to invoke their socialization. It's dismissive. It might be due to their socialization, but what if it's just a part of who they are? Is that wrong? You can't help but think that that is the implication. That it's wrong. It's masculine. It's privilege-y. They're masculine, they're privileged, they're different than me. That train of thought happens quickly and effortlessly and it IS a slippery slope that so many cis people are happy with. MAAB people come in all stripes. Maybe super masculine people just transition more. Maybe you have a problem with that... it ultimately has nothing to do with whether or not male socialization influenced it. But, maybe you don't want to say that you have a problem with that. It's easier to talk about it indirectly, oh, it's just their socialization, they can't help it (but it's very uncomfortable for me, oh I don't understand it.) It's an impersonal way to express a very personal judgment about real experiences you've had with those people.

I guess I'm being so critical about it because I'm frustrated with myself. Honestly, I have trouble interacting with a lot of trans women. Not all trans women by any means, but a large percentage of them. I've collected a lot of biases about that. It was really ironic that I started blaming their socialization too, without knowing much about it, and because of occasional similarities with cis men, I let it become an extension of my fear of men, feeling certain that I was different, separate just because I have a billion problems that most people don't understand. Maybe it was a legitimate concern for me though, having been sexualized and treated inappropriately by trans women multiple times in a way that I have never, ever experienced from FAAB people. That's a real issue (when it happens.) I mean, those are real feelings, they shouldn't be written off over socialization. Because even IF it causes those behaviors it doesn't excuse them. Everyone is still responsible for who they are, or at the very least who they are trying to be... but it's so easy to just go, it's my/their socialization, I/they can't help it. It's easier to say that than to try to change. Or to address what you really specifically feel.

Calling me (I mean general me, people in my position) different than cis women may or may not be true. Yeah, stereotypically I've had different experiences, but nobody deserves to say how that translates to my personal situation or how that has shaped my personality. Ofc I am different than cis women. Cis women are different than other cis women. It is never all-encompassing, ever. But I feel that focusing so much on the technical existence of that difference is sending a different message at least some of the time. Between the lines, it's telling me I can never be something. It's rejecting  a part of me, even if it wasn't aimed at me. Maybe I'm too sensitive? Probably am... But really I feel like it's revealing some level of bias from the person who's saying it. I'm guilty of the same thing. But I'm trying to be more aware of that and stop using it as an excuse. Even just in my own head. I don't know, maybe I'm the only person who even struggled with any of this. Hah. Gosh, I take everything too seriously. Well... at least in that case I'm reforming myself! :S

(PS... this is not necessarily a comment on anything anyone has said, I didn't have any specific examples in mind while writing it. It's just my general/personal experience with this that was evoked by the topic. But I feel like it's sort of relevant.)

QuoteI guess I'm being so critical about it because I'm frustrated with myself. Honestly, I have trouble interacting with a lot of trans women. Not all trans women by any means, but a large percentage of them.

It feels to me you're over-thinking all of this, a lot. I think problems faced by transgender people has much more to do with simply going against societal norms and has nothing to do with 'privilege' being invoked by non-trans people.

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 05, 2014, 01:15:58 PM
Do I come out ahead or behind in all that? ...See that's probs the question you are expecting. But it's the wrong question. Because intersectional analysis was never meant to be used on individuals. The very concept of privilege we are talking about was never designed for case-by-case anecdotal study. It is a social theory. I.e. it is used for studying groups and tendencies within those groups. We can say, accurately, that being trans sucks in our society. That being a trans woman is worse. That being a black trans woman is worse than that. And we know this because of a statistical study that analyzed all that jazz. But that says absolutely nothing about say... Janet Mock's personal experiences.

So like... the whole conversation of "do I have male privilege because I grew up male?" is like... dumb. Feminism is about systems of oppression not whether random individual number 37 had x advantage in their life. Not only is it not really possible to figure that out with any degree of accuracy. It is also not worth the sweat. The goal here is to fix a larger problem. Women are treated like sex objects in our society, they earn less for the same work, their participation in governance is abysmal, and they are systematically kept in that state with limited options for escape. And when you start talking about the world as a whole, it gets so, so much bleaker: millions of missing women due to sex-selected abortion and infanticide, slave trafficking, corrective rape, genital mutilation, the list goes on and on.

This isn't about whether you were beaten up as a kid for "lacking male privilege" (hint: that wasn't the reason), and it drives me slightly batty every time I have to see these conversations. So in the thread's interest of honesty, here's some honesty, yo.

Thank you!  This was very illuminating to me!

Quote from: Nikko on February 05, 2014, 04:02:11 PM
It feels to me you're over-thinking all of this, a lot. I think problems faced by transgender people has much more to do with simply going against societal norms and has nothing to do with 'privilege' being invoked by non-trans people.

I'm sorry >< I'm not sure I completely understood you here. Can you elaborate? By problems faced by transgender people, do you mean in communication styles/just not fitting in or?

Thanks!!

Quote from: sad panda on February 05, 2014, 03:44:39 PM

For example, I mean when talking about MTF trans people's experiences and communication style, I don't think it is responsible to invoke their socialization. It's dismissive. It might be due to their socialization, but what if it's just a part of who they are? Is that wrong? You can't help but think that that is the implication. That it's wrong. It's masculine. It's privilege-y. They're masculine, they're privileged, they're different than me.

I agree it shouldn't be dismissed. But I always wonder why people think it's odd that a lot of trans people have leftovers from their upbringing. When you're trans, there's this implication that you must be ultra feminine - that you were so feminine you had to transition and vice versa. That somehow a trans woman who was raised male should just magically lack male traits. It's like we're supposed to just be a brain in a bubble until transition that soaked up nothing. But socialization is at least as much about people's reactions to us than anything about us. And I don't think the average cis woman would be very feminine in behavior if she were raised a boy either. And one thing that often gets overlooked is that feminine behavior in a boy and masculine behavior in a girl gets magnified. The 'feminine' traits in a boy are given much more weight than any masculine traits he has. As a result, you could have a trans woman who was feminine as a man, but comes off masculine as a woman. Those masculine traits are just more obvious now.


Maybe I'm getting off topic.

QuoteUmh, similarly, I don't know, I think this happens a lot. And I think it has this unwritten potency when it's coming from a FAAB person especially. Not for any good reason. It just so happens that FAAB people's opinions are given more value, weight and legitimacy on this topic (in the sphere of their own typical experiences, which is totally fair, but also experiences they may have no personal understanding of).. I think it's easy to abuse without meaning to abuse it.

Well, I apologize if I came off that way (I think I'm one of the few FAAB posters in this thread). As far as FAAB people's voices on this having more weight, I don't know about that. But I do think though that 'male privilege' (still hoping for a better term) or sexism or whatever is more visible and harmful to those without it. It's kind of like I certainly don't feel privileged for being white. I haven't had an easy life, etc. But a POC is probably a lot more aware of not being white than I am of being white. I'm not aware of all the subtle ways my life has been easier (or what have you) because of it. So if we were having a discussion on race inequalities, my going on about not being a privileged white person may sound dismissive to a POC. Not because she wants to be a sanctimonious ->-bleeped-<-, but because race inequality has been a much bigger issue in her life than mine. Racial inequalities have been a real obstacle in her life. Just as gender inequalities have.

I think this is one of the problems that occurs when this issue is brought up:

FAAB person talks about male privilege or the like.

MAAB person says something about how they never experienced it, etc.

FAAB hears in her mind the denial of female 'lack of privilege' and her experience. She's still dealing with the consequences of it and is probably a little bitter about it. She says something more about male privilege.

MAAB person hears: 'you're a horrible, privileged man keeping all women down!' MAAB person is hurt because they've honestly never felt privileged a day in their life and now they feel blamed for something they never chose and didn't even know about.

This becomes even more complicated and problematic when involving trans people. In that case the MAAB person is already sad about missing a female childhood and vice versa for the FAAB. Not to mention that trans people often end up experiencing both sides of the coin.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I think the term 'privilege' is problematic and obscures the issue. It only serves to make the so called 'privileged' feel defensive and blamed.