If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.

I'd say I was glad to meet her and ask where we wanted to go for lunch

Seriously, it doesn't bother me at all, how someone identifies on an internal level and their external presentation are two different things. I've met a woman who happens to have a beard, and zie was a really cool person.

Zythyra

Ugh!!!

I think I would be fascinated and want to get to know this person better.  I certainly am not qualified to judge her and wouldn't presume to do so.

I would be most interested in her motivations and why she would be willing to pay the steep social price, that she probably can't avoid paying, simply to keep some facial hair while otherwise presenting as female.  I mean, where can such a person go to the bathroom, for instance.  And how is she accepted by family and co-workers when she is so adamant about breaking our cultural rules of gender?

Live and let live is my decision and I'd be very curious.

hugs & smiles
Emelye

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 05, 2007, 10:16:20 AM
a little 5 o'clock shadow is understandable, but are you talking about like a grizzly adams beard or a fu manchu or something?

that doesnt fit my image, personally, but then i feel the same way about hairy legs or sleeveless tops with pits that look like old-growth forests.

i guess i would be somewhat skeptical as to their sincerity...maybe because i put so much time and effort into my presentation myself.

other than that, meh, if thats what they want to do, then whatever.

BTW I meant this person is not PRE-transition (real or imagined) AND has a fully developed mustache and goatee, not a shadow.

Another question is, if there are functions that are restricted to women only, should a person like this be granted access?

I think she's asking for a lot of pain if she's asking for people to validate her internal feeling.

I also don't think any women in the world will feel comfortable with such a women in the women's restroom, the men's restroom it is.

She's deliberately trying to offend people's sensibility; its not just gender smender in this case. Most men in the world don't even wear moustache or beard (and even less both together), so she's trying for who knows what.

But, if she can live with the pain of nobody treating her like a women, hey, whatever floats her boat is fine with me. She's clearly doing a genderf**k if you ask me.

Our society has a certain level of expectation for what females should look like and how they should dress.  Unfortunately, an individual who can not or will not meet this minimal level of "dress code" will be shunned.  It is not a matter of choice for the observer necessarily, it is what is expected.

There are rare cases where native females have facial hair.  How do you think society treats these individuals?  That's right, like men.

Facial hair is considered an exclusive male trait in our society and there's no changing it. 

I would expect someone with facial hair to use the men's restroom for simplicity's sake.  Personally, I don't care all that much about restrooms.  They have separate stalls and that's enough privacy for me.

For other "functions"... I can't imagine too many things where women only should be granted access.  We worry too much about integration of the sexes in our society.

On a personal level, I would feel quite uncomfortable around someone like this at first.  I'd have to get to know someone before my comfort barriers could be lowered.

Cindi

I'd say hell no. Make an effort! If your are gonna talk the talk you need to walk the walk!

Because a REAL woman never has any facial hair whatsoever....
What honestly gives you the right to discount someone on the basis of their....facial hair?  I mean...really...how silly is that?  It's amazing to me how much understanding and acceptance you can ask from people on the one hand, and then turn and throw it in someone else's face(literally) with the other.  What gender you are doesn't make you more or less of a person.  And certainly how close you are aligned to stereotypes with that gender don't make you more or less of a person, deserving of more or less of mine or anybody else's respect and understanding.

News flash: real women are not Barbie dolls.

Sarah, in this case, its not just a little hair you remove once in awhile, its a full beard and moustache!!

Even women with hirsutism rarely have that in any measure or form, and if she had it (one in a million), she'd try to hide it.

My friend's wife had an hormonal inbalance which gave her a quite dense beard under her chin (thankfully, her hair is red, so it wasn't as bad as black); got electrolysis on it too.

For FTM, the beard is the main thing that enables them to pass as male. So, like I said, she's asking for A LOT, if she's asking others to validate her internal feelings.

My own experience with GID tells me that I could not stand at all to have any hair on my face and plucked my very very dense beard away; so, not sure what kind of dysphoria that person could have that makes her comfortable like that. My feeling is that she doesn't have social or physical dysphoria, no GID at all

Keira, you can't presume anything.  I don't know if you're talking about an exact real person, or just making one up, but you really don't know the story behind having the beard or mustache vs. not.  You can't learn that without discussing with the person why they've chosen to do that.

I just think a lot of the attitudes expressed towards even the idea of a woman with a beard, are pretty disgusting.  We are talking about a human being here.  Whoever she is, she has a reason that beard is there, and it's really not for you to say that it makes her more or less of a woman.  As women, I think we need to be the most accepting--it's hard enough being a woman going up against men, but it's even harder if you have to fight for legitimacy with other women.

A lot of the reasons for being upset by the beard, have to do with what is acceptable and not acceptable female beauty, as defined by...guess who...men.  I would rather find reasons to support a fellow sister than reasons to tear her down, you know?

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 05, 2007, 11:34:42 AM
Keira, you can't presume anything.  I don't know if you're talking about an exact real person, or just making one up, but you really don't know the story behind having the beard or mustache vs. not.  You can't learn that without discussing with the person why they've chosen to do that.

I just think a lot of the attitudes expressed towards even the idea of a woman with a beard, are pretty disgusting.  We are talking about a human being here.  Whoever she is, she has a reason that beard is there, and it's really not for you to say that it makes her more or less of a woman.  As women, I think we need to be the most accepting--it's hard enough being a woman going up against men, but it's even harder if you have to fight for legitimacy with other women.

A lot of the reasons for being upset by the beard, have to do with what is acceptable and not acceptable female beauty, as defined by...guess who...men.  I would rather find reasons to support a fellow sister than reasons to tear her down, you know?

It's not only men who define feminine beauty as not having facial hair and certainly not beards. Are you not aware of the millions of dollars (probably billions) spent by GGs to remove facial hair? The person in my scenario pretty much just looks like a guy and acts like a guy. Should this person be accepted in women only environs just because she internally IDs as female?

About a year ago I read this article about Jennifer Miller, performance artist. http://www.maryellenmark.com/text/magazines/nytimes/917M-000-012.html. Here's a little more about her at wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Miller. I haven't ever seen her perform, from what I've read, I really admire her.

Zythyra

Its totally unrealistic to be accepted as a women if you have a full beard.
You can quible about the fairness of this, but that's what it is.
So, that person will not get a cure for whatever social dysphoria she had.

If you keep the beard and moustache and grow it out, the kind of GID she has is very very different than mine and any TS I've ever seen. Hair on the body is a major secondary sexual characteristic.

So, what fixes the physical dysphoria, breasts, SRS, nothing!! If there is no need to do anything, either socially or physically, what are we talking about here?

Anyway, as I said, if she can deal with these contradiction in the real world, more power to her, but others will disagree that's for sure.

I'd pull out the classified's and point out the circus was hiring for the bearded lady position!!lol
Seriously, I'd probably politely point out that she is definitely making a serious mistake and should consider her presentation to the world,
                                                      Kim   

I have met such a person. I know that I cringe inside and I don't know why. I guess I have some standards as well. I know I shouldn't feel that way but I do. When I'm around her I try not to let my bigotry show and try to be very nice and accomodating as we must look the same way to others who have met trans people for the first time. This person is very nice and very low income but I know that it doesn't cost much to shave. I try the best I can to accept her and to feel that she has every right to express her way into this world. I have read a lot of your letters and it just goes to show all of us that there is also bigotry in minority groups. It isn't bad it just happens. It was the way we are raised and we need to understand this when confronting other groups out there, like the religous right.
Sheila

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, the idea that a woman with facial hair should be less of a person is totally f'in nuts! And btw, FtMs do not need facial hair in order to pass!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have it, don't really need it, shave it off most of the time, and don't have any problem passing as male. People are people, folks. PEOPLE. It doesn't matter what race, gender, nationality, outer appearance, inner identification, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera! Choose your own path. Everyone should have this right. And as far as restrooms go... god, can somebody pave the way for unisex facilities already? Please, folks, don't be like the rest of idiot America, or idiot society as a whole. Let's realize that every woman or man or anything in between has just as much right to life and liberty and happiness as anyone else.

Dino

Oh, and btw... there's a chick who works at a shop we frequent here in SC. She has a full mustache and beard. FULL. She identifies as female, and is, genetically, FEMALE. She is a lesbian. Oh freakin well!!!!!

Quote from: zythyra on August 05, 2007, 11:54:30 AM
About a year ago I read this article about Jennifer Miller, performance artist. http://www.maryellenmark.com/text/magazines/nytimes/917M-000-012.html. Here's a little more about her at wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Miller. I haven't ever seen her perform, from what I've read, I really admire her.

Zythyra

Although many women would consider such a thing a terrible burden, Miller said she takes pride in her beard and uses it as a tool to separate the norms of masculinity and femininity from the actual meaning of gender.

"Having a beard says nothing about your sexuality. It says nothing about your gender. It says nothing but 'body hair,'" said Suzanna Walters, chair of the Department of Gender Studies, who worked to bring Miller to campus.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=38776


Jennifer Miller sounds like an admirable woman to me!
-Emerald 

Who on earth was saying she wasn't a person, certainly not me.
I'm saying she's got the be realistic about other's reactions and that
she doesn't seem to have any of the usual GID symptoms.

I don't know if its bigotry to point out that

Dean, excuse me, but In my support groups, all the FTM talk about needing the beard to pass as male, so who's jumping the gun here.

For many MTF, removing the beard is the first step to passability, what does that say.

I've actually known some of the women with beard (but not a full beard, just no makeup to cover the shadow); but, they weren't like that by choise, they were so poor they couldn't afford the makeup to cover the shadow!! Yeah. that's poor!!

    I know 2 gg's with beards.  One has a full beard on the lower part of her face and the rest seems more sparse.  The other has skimpy growth on her chin and a moustache.  Sometimes, the second one shaves.

    It doesn't bother me at all.  I think it bothers people who are squeamish concerning the blending of gender.  I actually think that some beautiful women would look very cool with goatees.

   Women didn't even start shaving their legs and pits until just over a hundred years ago.  I think it's stupid. Like Mother's day, father's day, and valentines day, they are just marketing gimmicks that have become institutionalized as tradition.  I wish more women would stop shaving their legs like some of the lesbians I've met.  Most do it because they feel they have to thanks to a small minded society.

   If somebody forced one of the women I know with facial hair to use the men's room, I would snap their arms off.

   I understand that gender blending does not fit most people's life view, but I think it's a prejudice to make judgments.  Someday, people can just be people and not be judged or despised for their physical attributes.


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