A friend was having his party at a goth club/hangout thing that is part of a gay club. I had no idea there was another entrance so I went through the front and walked to the other building. There was an enclosed patio between the two and when I went through there were some young gay guys scattered here and there. It was only 10:30 and it was obvious that they had either been boozing it up, doing drugs, or both. No worries, walked through and got to where I had to go.

Hung out at the party for a little bit. It was nice to see a couple of people I had not seen in awhile. A few others who knew of what I recently went through made sure that I was doing ok. Overall a nice night, even though I could not stay for too long. I finally said my goodbyes since I had a 40 minute ride home. Hugs all around.

Leaving I had to go through the same patio. This time they were all bunched around the door, making it impossible to get through. So I just said pardon me and navigated my way through. At one point one of the guys said, in a rather loud voice and to me, "No problem SIR."

I just let it go and, to be honest, I am used to this kind of treatment from the majority of the gay community in the area. I saw no sense in a confrontation that could lead to a very bad situation, no matter how it turned out. Talked it out with a friend later and she just said that she was amazed that they clocked me at all.

awww, that sucks. I'm sorry that happened. And you would hope that gay people would be more accepting...

Let's hope it was just the booze talking and not transphobia from a gay person.

Beverly

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on May 25, 2007, 09:08:26 AM
Let's hope it was just the booze talking and not transphobia from a gay person.

I swear there's a common undercurrent of resentment or something from many gay guys. I live in a very, very gay town where I'm constantly interacting with them, and they generally just seem to HATE me... and I mean even before I started obviously transitioning. I say good morning, they just glare and walk past. I try to make conversation, they let it die so they can get away. They adore my wife - they'll all talk for hours, but I try to be included and add comments and I'm literally ignored like I'm not even there.

So I'm sorry LIT, but not entirely surprised. I AM surprised you got read, but I suspect maybe someone who knows your history may have blabbed a bit?

~Kate~

I honestly for the life of me can not understand why any gay person would have a problem with anyone who is transsexual. Yes, I know that there are differences between gays and transsexuals but the very common thread between the two groups is discrimination from other people. You would think that any group that has been discriminated against for so long (and obviously knowing how much that hurts) would not do that to another group. I just don't get it. 

They are a much different group and there are supporters and those who hate us within it. The gay club across the street I have hung out at several times and the only odd run in I had was when a group could not decide if I was T or not. Being out at the time I said transsexual and they had no idea what that meant. But they were pretty cool about it. Another time I was in there, sipping on a beer and a really drunk guy hollered out (across the club mind you), "Oh my god! Look! a lesbian!" How can you just not sit there and laugh at that. The estrogen count there is usually pretty low and most of the time I do not interact with anyone but it is good to decompress a bit. Plus really good and cool bartenders.

Now I only club with once or twice a month and most of that is in the leather circles.

As for someone blabbing about me, unlikely due to the difference of locations. Some people are good at reading T people and some are not. It's how he handled it is the problem that I have. But like I said, it is not that unusual where I am at. heck, the log cabin republicans have a decent membership in this area and that is something I just cannot figure out.

Oh and I have run into another situation with another gay bar. I knew some leather folks were going there that night and wanted to surprise them by popping in. However, I was hungry and so I called the club asking if they had any type of bar food. they did but the guy kept saying over and over again that it probably was not a place for me. calling me Ma'am and miss the whole time. So I worked a little later and hit the one that I liked instead. Dinner was free popcorn, freshly popped.

I was reading through some of these older topics and this one stuck out at me. As a gay man, I can relate to some of the confusion.

Those of us who are gay are often confused at how to address people who are in drag, ->-bleeped-<-s, or transgender. I've since learned that it's best to address people in the gender they're wearing. For example, if Jane Drag is a stage name, then SHE is Jane Drag. But if John Doe is his real name, and he's dressed "as a boy," then it's he.

But if someone is transgender, it's almost always appropriate to refer to the trans gender instead of the birth gender, IMHO.

The fact that there are a lot of gay and lesbian people who just assume that a trans person is just in drag, might add to the confusion. So it's possible that it's just ignorance. OR, they might just be a jerk who thinks that the trans person isn't feminine/masculine enough to pass, which is pretty darn petty.

I'm sorry this happened to you. I just hope we can continue eductating the reast of the GLB population on the T issues.

I also think that this type of remark generally carries a different connotation in gay society.  In the conservative, we are right and more moral than you camp, a remark like this is filled with violence and hatred.  In a group of gays, it will carry a different sense, generally lacking in that hatred and violence.  There may be some sense derision or funniness to it, but most gay people will have the "que sera', sera'" attitude.  It's hard to determine the difference when you are the subject of the comment.

Cindi

Quote from: Ell on August 05, 2007, 04:17:29 PM

Quote from: Kate on May 25, 2007, 10:33:11 AM
I swear there's a common undercurrent of resentment or something from many gay guys...

i'm really surprised to hear that, Kate. you're always surprising me. i live in a city with lots of gays and i've never had any problem with them...

Since writing that, I've come out to a few of my gay neighbors...

The one couple showed me incredible kindness and compassion, inviting me into their home, congratulating me, and even though my switch was brand new to them, they consistently referred to me as she and her and Kate. They DID mention however that they were surprised, as they'd figured I was just "an ordinary straight guy."

My wife told another gay neighbor about Kate. His response was, "Well, I don't see myself calling HIM that anytime soon." He too mentioned he always figured I was a straight guy.

A third gay neighbor now waves to me and says hi whenever he sees me. His partner and I always have friendly chats whenever we bump into one another.

So I guess my lesson is people are people. Some like me, some don't, and I guess sexuality doesn't really play into it after all. My apologies for unfairly stereotyping

~Kate~

Hi Kate,

I am sorry that you had such a mixed reaction... it makes me feel sad that people can be quite scathing in their remarks. Sometimes it can be attributed to fear of being confronted with a situation not understood, (mild homophobia) and that perception is perhaps for another topic. In other cases though, homophobic or not, it is simply down to the individual, that they have a harsh personality and barriers are raised no matter who smiles; whichever the case it can be heart moving to say the least.

With this in mind just be you... As you say, 'people are people', fear, lack of understanding, intolerance etc is down to the human condition, just try to not be a part of it. I would like to think that your neighbour will see that you are still you... and no doult a more contented 'you'.

In gay clubs...I have seen guys coming and using the female washroom like it's nothing..

QuoteLeaving I had to go through the same patio. This time they were all bunched around the door, making it impossible to get through. So I just said pardon me and navigated my way through. At one point one of the guys said, in a rather loud voice and to me, "No problem SIR."

My favorite tool for dealing with such ignorance is this:  What did you say?  I repeat that as often as needed until the offending person hears how stupid they sound.  This works with even the most ignorant person.  Note that I never say "Pardon me?" or anything else that makes me sound like I'm asking for something. 

There is a jiu-jitsu to be used against everyone who would offend or harass you.  The "What did you say?" move works for me.

I recommend this book to all who want to have an upper hand in gender/sexual harassment.  It's title is "Back Off!" by Martha J. Langelan.  This book has helped me in more ways than I ever anticipated, on the job, on the street, in stores, and on the subway.  It's out-of-print but available from www.amazon.com

Wing Walker

I have a very gay friend who is also an old man.
He is 56.
He knows I am transgendered, and does not have a problem with it.
He does have a problem with the bathroom issues on the political side of things.
He does not support trans-women in womens restrooms unless they have had surgery.
We got into it once about it (which was how I found out his opinion on the matter) and I let it drop.
He is also an Agnostic and I am a Buddhist.
We disagree on several other things like certain political views of what is or is not helpful as a possible solution to world issues for instance.
But over all he is a good and carring friend. He has a kind heart. When we talk I definitely focus on what we have in common.
He is very well educated and knows and loves to talk about world history and current events, which I love to hear.
I don't know if his Trans. ignorance is a personal thing, or just a relic from his era when Trans. people and Gays didn't get along (he is 56)
He has said some things about what I wear that made me think he was being slightly condecending. I ususally just ignore it, and he sort of realizes he pushed a button and so the subject changes.
Interesting person.
Good friend. We talk for hours at a time.
But certainly is interesting at times.
-Sarah

Quote from: LostInTime on May 25, 2007, 08:19:11 AM
A friend was having his party at a goth club/hangout thing that is part of a gay club. I had no idea there was another entrance so I went through the front and walked to the other building. There was an enclosed patio between the two and when I went through there were some young gay guys scattered here and there. It was only 10:30 and it was obvious that they had either been boozing it up, doing drugs, or both. No worries, walked through and got to where I had to go.

Hung out at the party for a little bit. It was nice to see a couple of people I had not seen in awhile. A few others who knew of what I recently went through made sure that I was doing ok. Overall a nice night, even though I could not stay for too long. I finally said my goodbyes since I had a 40 minute ride home. Hugs all around.

Leaving I had to go through the same patio. This time they were all bunched around the door, making it impossible to get through. So I just said pardon me and navigated my way through. At one point one of the guys said, in a rather loud voice and to me, "No problem SIR."

I just let it go and, to be honest, I am used to this kind of treatment from the majority of the gay community in the area. I saw no sense in a confrontation that could lead to a very bad situation, no matter how it turned out. Talked it out with a friend later and she just said that she was amazed that they clocked me at all.

Hello, Lost,

I am sorry that you were the subject of such rudeness.  I would prefer to think that it was an isolated incident starring one fool.  May I say that you were right in not pursuing the matter?  Better to leave and talk it out as you did.

Some of us wonder where the "gay community" stands with we who are transsexual and transgendered. 

Individually they might be very nice people.  When I reported to work in my true gender I met a lesbian acquaintance in a corridor of our building.  She walked up to me and gave me the warmest of hugs and I thanked her and told her that it was special to me because it was from someone I considered a "woman's woman."

She was possibly an exception to the rule.

I once met a man who was a doctor and he said that he was gay.  As we talked he mentioned something that surprised me.  He said, and this is as close as I can recall, that if an autopsy was done on a lesbian's brain it would be the same as that of a rednecked truck driver.

This also makes me wonder how well gay men and gay women get on as a group.  I have no real knowledge if they go to  conventions together or have ever demonstrated any great degree of acceptance of one another.  I was never a club-hopping type of person so I don't know what goes on in a place known for a gay clientele.

The Human Rights Campaign, headquartered in Washington, DC, ostensibly represents everyone under the rainbow of GBLT.  They are a well-funded lobbying organization with an imposing presence on Capitol Hill.  At the Southern Comfort Conference the pres of the HRC promised that any Employee Nondiscrimination Act (ENDA) would not only cover gay men and women, it would cover *all* who are trans.  He said that before a crowd.

When HRC finished working on the Hill the ENDA did not have any protection for transpersons.  Congresswoman Tammy Baldwin, a lesbian, pushed for the all-inclusive ENDA.  Congressman Barney Frank, a gay man, made sure that the trans protection was not in the bill that went for a vote.

This tells me a lot about where the "gay community" stands on trans issues and what they think of transsexual and transgender persons individually and as a huge group.  The posture of the HRC is "we got ours, now you get yours, and, by the way, send us a check."

I wish that I was wrong but the what took place between HRC and Congress is a matter of record and in the newspapers.

I am not sure what I would have done in your position, Lost.  I might have shifted the dynamic on the character who was so insulting but then, depending on how strong I felt, I might have walked, just like you.  Tough call late at night.

I hope that you never see such rudeness again.  As a group, we who are "T" are alone.

Thank you for hearing me out.

Wing Walker

Hi, all,
Funny thing about gays and night clubs, I was never drawn to them and just being in a bar made me feel uncomfortable so I simply just didn't bother going to them. No big deal anyways, I don't drink. I did frequent bars when I drank when I was a guy in my earlier years, but then I quit them 20 years ago. The only gay person I ever met was when I was going to college in Sudbury, Ontario.

We were really good friend and we knocked about town together. That is about the only knowledge and encounter I have had with gays. And as for getting clocked I don't really know if I did, probably, but I didn't let that bother me none.

I was around a lot of people every day being a social worker. I ran across many different people in a day and they all used the right pronouns whenever they addressed me. I came out in a small town and everything went fine. I was only really frightened on the first day because I did not know what the reaction was going to be.

Cindy