Although I'm aware only I can answer that for myself -- I am doubtful about everything, and would love some feedback.  I don't know any trans people, and am in an area where it would be difficult to find any meetings or support groups.  (Not that I would be likely to go to anything like that anyway.)

I'm female, and currently think I am a man.  I'm incredibly worried this is just a phase I've gotten into and obsessed over for... well. It's been three years now that I've thought I was trans, and much much longer that I've fantasized about being male.  Here are a few things, with so much glorious TMI:

> I didn't know I was trans when I was little.  I can't recall ever thinking I would mature to be male.  I did have lots of male friends when I was younger, and was a tomboy, but the former was likely because of what other kids were available.  When I first found out trans people were a thing, I was in highschool.  I tried binding with plastic wrap, and then ignored it for four-five years until college, when I started watching youtube videos posted by ftm guys about their experience.

> Uhh, so, sexually, the only thing that tends to get me off is fantasies... about myself, being treated violently. As a woman.  I figure that's not normal -- the amount of times I imagine I'm a dude while jerkin it is relatively small.  I'd say like 80/20.  (On the other hand here, being in actual physical relationships wherein I'm treated as a female?  Doesn't fly with me at all.  Even if I really liked whoever it was, I couldn't bring myself to let them touch me.)

> I was one of those annoying yaoi fangirls for a little while there in highschool.  It's awkward, I don't like talking about it.  I fantasized about being a man long before that, but, ah. I don't know.  Isn't that usually a bad sign?

> I am not always dysphoric.  Even when I am dysphoric (and it can be pretty nasty self-hate), I worry that it's because I've convinced myself I'm trans, and am subsequently feeling how I think I ought to feel.  (It is bad, though.)  Before I started thinking I was trans, I wasn't exactly dysphoric, but... I pretty much ignored my body?  It was there, but, eh.  I definitely didn't -like- it, but I mostly just put it out of my mind.  (Ugh, and being seen sexually as a woman makes me want to puke.)

> I worry that I've seen how women are treated and objectified, and have internalized this and gone DO NOT WANT, leading me to think I'm a man?

> Doesn't every woman want to be a man?  I don't understand people who actively want to be women. ... (Well, okay, trans-women do, I suppose. ........ Hm.)  Could be a 'grass is greener' kind of thing?

But, on the other hand, the sense of relief I remember feeling when I learned transition was a thing was overwhelming.  I feel very good when I pass as male, and when people treat me like a man.  (Of course, if I have deluded myself, of course passing would still feel good?)  I fantasized about being a man from a very young age, and those fantasies have dominated my thoughts and time for as long as I can remember.  I remember when I was little thinking that I was afraid to grow up, because I would have to date someone and "stop playing pretend", and this really upset me.  Currently the idea of taking hormones and becoming more masculine looks really appealing to me.  I would love to be muscley and hairy and hell, I wouldn't mind balding if it meant I could have a beard and a squeaky gnome voice.  I want to be strong, I want to assume "masculine" social roles -- I want to be the protector/provider/"father" figure.  The idea of being "a woman" in a relationship (problematic as the wording is) really grosses me out. 

... uhh.  so, please, be brutal.  how messed up am i?  how can i gain some sense of security on the matter, one way or another?

A lot of times people think that either no one else can possibly think how they do, or that everybody does. I can pretty much assure you that there are girls/women who are happy to be that (besides trans women)-- so it isn't the grass is greener thing. Also there is no experience that is sort of "the trans narrative". Everybody's experience is different. That doesn't mean we don't share a lot of similar experiences as we do, but we have different histories and so on. I did not know I was trans til (although I told my mom I was a boy when I was 7 or so). I didn't even know there was such a thing as a trans guy, til quite a lot longer than I knew there were trans women. I think I knew that in my teens.

Being trans is not at all "messed up". A lot of people think of it as either a medical condition treatable by transition, or a normal condition of humankind or both. You don't need to have certain kinds of dysphoria or any kind of dysphoria at all (all though it is more usual to have dysphoria), it can shift and so on.

Talking to a gender therapist can be helpful.
With a name like Jackalope, are you New Mexican by any chance? If so where? There are excellent resources in Albuquerque and Santa Fe.


--Jay

Pretty much ditto to what the others said.

Honestly, I would suggest that you seek therapy of some manner.  I'm not saying that in a "you're nuts, you need help" kind of way, but a lot of what you have expressed here indicates that you have some obvious confusion and inner issues going on - a therapist can really help to "unravel" a lot of these mixed or confused thoughts and feelings and get to the bottom of things.

No one here, at the end of the day, can tell you if you're trans* or not.  For some, being trans* is a "from birth or conscious memory" condition - for others, they have arrived at this conclusion recently - others have been misdiagnosed as trans* and have de-transitioned (although this is pretty rare from what I understand).  Everyone "arrives" at the understanding of their own identities differently.

I suppose that what I'm trying to say is that I believe that medical intervention should never be a part of self-exploration - this is my personal opinion.  By "medical intervention", I mean surgery and hormone treatment that is permanent.  Even if everyone here said to you, "oh yes, you're definitely trans*", you do still need to address all the issues going on in your life - and thoughts - with a professional.  Do you have access to a counselor or therapist where you live? 

What the others said.

But ask yourself this:  When you are old, do you picture yourself as an old man? Or an old woman?  Which would you prefer to be when you are old and gray?

A gender therapist can be hugely helpful.

Everything that follows is my personal opinion, nothing more. I have no idea if you're trans or not; none of us can tell you one way or another. The questions I'm going to ask you are meant to help you evaluate your feelings.

QuoteI didn't know I was trans when I was little.  I can't recall ever thinking I would mature to be male.  I did have lots of male friends when I was younger, and was a tomboy, but the former was likely because of what other kids were available.  When I first found out trans people were a thing, I was in highschool.  I tried binding with plastic wrap, and then ignored it for four-five years until college, when I started watching youtube videos posted by ftm guys about their experience.

Doesn't say you're not trans, but doesn't say you might be, either.

QuoteUhh, so, sexually, the only thing that tends to get me off is fantasies... about myself, being treated violently. As a woman.  I figure that's not normal -- the amount of times I imagine I'm a dude while jerkin it is relatively small.  I'd say like 80/20.  (On the other hand here, being in actual physical relationships wherein I'm treated as a female?  Doesn't fly with me at all.  Even if I really liked whoever it was, I couldn't bring myself to let them touch me.)

What do you mean, you can't let them touch you? Anywhere? Or just wherever your body is discernibly female? Have you gone to counseling to see if you have any repressed memories of sexual assault? Having those fantasies doesn't mean anything necessarily - violent fantasies are extremely common - but in this context, I recommend it. I personally can't imagine ever getting off on a fantasy where I'm a woman, ever, but since there are cisgender guys that get off on imagining themselves as women, or crossdressing, that doesn't mean you're not trans. But it could be a sign of an underlying problem.

QuoteI was one of those annoying yaoi fangirls for a little while there in highschool.  It's awkward, I don't like talking about it.  I fantasized about being a man long before that, but, ah. I don't know.  Isn't that usually a bad sign?

A lot of "yaoi fangirls" as you said enjoy crossdressing, including binding, etc. It doesn't make you transgender any more than being a drag queen makes someone transgender. That doesn't mean that you're not transgender, but it certainly doesn't mean you are. People fantasize about being animals/fairies/dragons too.

QuoteI am not always dysphoric.  Even when I am dysphoric (and it can be pretty nasty self-hate), I worry that it's because I've convinced myself I'm trans, and am subsequently feeling how I think I ought to feel.  (It is bad, though.)  Before I started thinking I was trans, I wasn't exactly dysphoric, but... I pretty much ignored my body?  It was there, but, eh.  I definitely didn't -like- it, but I mostly just put it out of my mind.  (Ugh, and being seen sexually as a woman makes me want to puke.)

This doesn't necessarily mean you're transgender either. Are you on the autism spectrum by chance? Also, if being seen sexually as a woman makes you want to puke, why are you a woman in your fantasies? More of a curiosity question than anything, to be honest.

QuoteI worry that I've seen how women are treated and objectified, and have internalized this and gone DO NOT WANT, leading me to think I'm a man?

It's possible.

QuoteDoesn't every woman want to be a man?  I don't understand people who actively want to be women. ... (Well, okay, trans-women do, I suppose. ........ Hm.)  Could be a 'grass is greener' kind of thing?

Er... no, not every woman wants to be a man. The vast majority of women love being women and take pride in it. Being transgender has nothing at all to do with 'the grass is greener on the other side'.

QuoteBut, on the other hand, the sense of relief I remember feeling when I learned transition was a thing was overwhelming.  I feel very good when I pass as male, and when people treat me like a man.  (Of course, if I have deluded myself, of course passing would still feel good?)

Well, to be fair, men tend to get better treatment, better careers, etc. If you live in a progressive area, that's not always the case, but if you feel "more powerful" when you present as male, you may just enjoy that feeling as opposed to actually being a man.

What region do you live in? The south? The northeast? If you live in an area where women are actively oppressed and treated poorly, you could just enjoy shedding that social expectation. Or you could be transgender. I don't know, I'm not a therapist, just offering other possible explanations for what you're feeling.

QuoteI fantasized about being a man from a very young age, and those fantasies have dominated my thoughts and time for as long as I can remember.

But you said at the beginning of your post that you had no idea when you were little, unless I misunderstood. Not every trans* person knows when they're little. As far as I know, knowing you're different is more common for MTFs than it is for FTMs.

QuoteI remember when I was little thinking that I was afraid to grow up, because I would have to date someone and "stop playing pretend", and this really upset me.

Is it possible you're just not interested in relationships? Again, I'm wondering if you're possibly on the autism spectrum. I know quite a few people who feel that way, and none of them are transgender (other than myself; I'm on the spectrum).

QuoteCurrently the idea of taking hormones and becoming more masculine looks really appealing to me.  I would love to be muscley and hairy and hell, I wouldn't mind balding if it meant I could have a beard and a squeaky gnome voice.

Would you be okay with being a really feminine guy with no hair on his body and no beard? If not, this may not really be about wanting to be a guy in general, but a specific kind of guy. Which is fine. But it's something to consider and evaluate.

QuoteI want to be strong, I want to assume "masculine" social roles -- I want to be the protector/provider/"father" figure. The idea of being "a woman" in a relationship (problematic as the wording is) really grosses me out.

You can do that as a woman, though. If men didn't have those social roles, how would you feel? If women were the protectors and providers, and men were not, would you still feel the way you do? Have you examined the possibility of being agender/genderqueer/etc.?

Quote... uhh.  so, please, be brutal.  how messed up am i?  how can i gain some sense of security on the matter, one way or another?

Not messed up. You seem pretty confused though. I strongly recommend seeing a therapist, which is something you have to do (in most cases) prior to starting hormones anyway. You need to talk to someone who's used to working with trans* people and can help you work through your questions.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 19, 2014, 09:58:44 PM
A lot of times people think that either no one else can possibly think how they do, or that everybody does. I can pretty much assure you that there are girls/women who are happy to be that (besides trans women)-- so it isn't the grass is greener thing. Also there is no experience that is sort of "the trans narrative". Everybody's experience is different. That doesn't mean we don't share a lot of similar experiences as we do, but we have different histories and so on. I did not know I was trans til (although I told my mom I was a boy when I was 7 or so). I didn't even know there was such a thing as a trans guy, til quite a lot longer than I knew there were trans women. I think I knew that in my teens.

Being trans is not at all "messed up". A lot of people think of it as either a medical condition treatable by transition, or a normal condition of humankind or both. You don't need to have certain kinds of dysphoria or any kind of dysphoria at all (all though it is more usual to have dysphoria), it can shift and so on.

Talking to a gender therapist can be helpful.
With a name like Jackalope, are you New Mexican by any chance? If so where? There are excellent resources in Albuquerque and Santa Fe.


--Jay

re: the bolded bit, I'm sorry to say I think I'm one of those people.  I very much subscribe to the theory that if someone is actually trans, it's got to do with the physical development of their brain during early fetal formation.  (Using both human case studies and animal research to back it up, and it's what I find the most comforting.  Obviously we cannot have hard proof without manipulative human studies, which is, also obviously, WILDLY UNETHICAL and something we'll never do.)

I worry that because I was raised female, in this society, that I've internalized the misogyny forced upon me, and am using that in lieu of what... should? be strong instinctual feelings. ... I don't know.  I just really don't want to be wrong, or find out I'm wrong after I start something as powerful as testosterone.

(And no, I just like Jackalopes.  Which, incidentally, is how I accidentally arrived at my male name of Jack.  My friends called me that before I could tell them not to and it stuck.)

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on January 20, 2014, 01:29:01 AM
Pretty much ditto to what the others said.

Honestly, I would suggest that you seek therapy of some manner.  I'm not saying that in a "you're nuts, you need help" kind of way, but a lot of what you have expressed here indicates that you have some obvious confusion and inner issues going on - a therapist can really help to "unravel" a lot of these mixed or confused thoughts and feelings and get to the bottom of things.

No one here, at the end of the day, can tell you if you're trans* or not.  For some, being trans* is a "from birth or conscious memory" condition - for others, they have arrived at this conclusion recently - others have been misdiagnosed as trans* and have de-transitioned (although this is pretty rare from what I understand).  Everyone "arrives" at the understanding of their own identities differently.

I suppose that what I'm trying to say is that I believe that medical intervention should never be a part of self-exploration - this is my personal opinion.  By "medical intervention", I mean surgery and hormone treatment that is permanent.  Even if everyone here said to you, "oh yes, you're definitely trans*", you do still need to address all the issues going on in your life - and thoughts - with a professional.  Do you have access to a counselor or therapist where you live?

I am seeing a therapist -- I'm scheduling a second appointment now, because I obviously have some pretty big issues no matter what side of the coin I fall on.  I told her I was worried that I'd managed to delude myself, and she suggested I seek out other trans people, so that I could see what they thought/felt and see if I identified with them.  I don't have any groups close that I could hang out with, so I decided to make this post.

Quote from: sneakersjay on January 20, 2014, 08:05:52 AM
What the others said.

But ask yourself this:  When you are old, do you picture yourself as an old man? Or an old woman?  Which would you prefer to be when you are old and gray?

A gender therapist can be hugely helpful.

That's an interesting question.  I would say I would prefer to be an old man, but.. A) I can't really picture myself as old and B) that's the answer I am expected to give, so my feelings may not be genuine.  Also, a lot of what I know I don't want to be in regards to being an 'old woman' has got a lot to do with social cues.  At this point I've over-thought and talked myself in so many circles I'm not entirely sure how I feel about my body, which should be the most important part of it...

Quote from: DCQ on January 20, 2014, 09:56:56 AM
Everything that follows is my personal opinion, nothing more. I have no idea if you're trans or not; none of us can tell you one way or another. The questions I'm going to ask you are meant to help you evaluate your feelings.

Doesn't say you're not trans, but doesn't say you might be, either.

What do you mean, you can't let them touch you? Anywhere? Or just wherever your body is discernibly female? Have you gone to counseling to see if you have any repressed memories of sexual assault? Having those fantasies doesn't mean anything necessarily - violent fantasies are extremely common - but in this context, I recommend it. I personally can't imagine ever getting off on a fantasy where I'm a woman, ever, but since there are cisgender guys that get off on imagining themselves as women, or crossdressing, that doesn't mean you're not trans. But it could be a sign of an underlying problem.

Anywhere, really, but the discernibly female bits are the worst.  I've got to be pretty close to someone emotionally before I'll consider cuddling with them, even.  I think that might have more to do with fear/lack of experience, though.

A lot of "yaoi fangirls" as you said enjoy crossdressing, including binding, etc. It doesn't make you transgender any more than being a drag queen makes someone transgender. That doesn't mean that you're not transgender, but it certainly doesn't mean you are. People fantasize about being animals/fairies/dragons too.

Mm, I never crossdressed because of it -- I just remember reading some of the mangas and participating a little bit in the fandom online.

This doesn't necessarily mean you're transgender either. Are you on the autism spectrum by chance? Also, if being seen sexually as a woman makes you want to puke, why are you a woman in your fantasies? More of a curiosity question than anything, to be honest.

This confuses the everloving ->-bleeped-<- out of me as well.  I don't get it. My current running theory is that, maybe because I started watching porn kinda young, and didn't know I was trans, I identified with the females because... I recognized that I was female?  Sort of, uh.  Okay, these are the bits I have, so... eh, I don't know, man, I don't know.  Because that theory doesn't really match up with my not wanting people IRL to treat me sexually as a woman.

I guess the biggest difference is that, uh, when I'm masturbating, there's never really a social presentation aspect?  It's always 'yep okay im being raped', but, uh.  (Although none of the things I imagine while doing that are things I'd ever want IRL.)  People seeing me as 'pretty' or 'feminine' bothers me?  Which I realize are bull->-bleeped-<- social ideas, but I don't think I would necessarily mind being a 'pretty' -male-.  I'm not very good at describing it. :'D Many apologies. 

It's possible.

Er... no, not every woman wants to be a man. The vast majority of women love being women and take pride in it. Being transgender has nothing at all to do with 'the grass is greener on the other side'.

Well, to be fair, men tend to get better treatment, better careers, etc. If you live in a progressive area, that's not always the case, but if you feel "more powerful" when you present as male, you may just enjoy that feeling as opposed to actually being a man.

I don't think women are treated too horribly here, at least not openly or something that I notice frequently.  I definitely haven't felt more powerful when presenting as male, it's more the concept that pleases me?  I'll always be small, somewhat anxious, introverted, etc.

What region do you live in? The south? The northeast? If you live in an area where women are actively oppressed and treated poorly, you could just enjoy shedding that social expectation. Or you could be transgender. I don't know, I'm not a therapist, just offering other possible explanations for what you're feeling.

I'm in northern virginia, near DC.  I don't think it's anything too serious here, but that is something I worry about a lot.

But you said at the beginning of your post that you had no idea when you were little, unless I misunderstood. Not every trans* person knows when they're little. As far as I know, knowing you're different is more common for MTFs than it is for FTMs.

re: the fantasizing thing?  I guess it's just that I never realized that I could actually be a man?  I didn't feel like I was male, but I would imagine I was quite a bit, and whenever I'd play roleplaying games with my friends, I would be a male character.  I presented as male online for quite a long time too, until my friend that lived near me told me to sign up as female.  (And that stuck for all of a year before I went back.)

Is it possible you're just not interested in relationships? Again, I'm wondering if you're possibly on the autism spectrum. I know quite a few people who feel that way, and none of them are transgender (other than myself; I'm on the spectrum).

I thought this for a while, until I realized that I might be able to be in a relationship as a man?  That idea appeals to me very much, and I would really really like to have someone that I can spend time with and be romantic with and etc (just so long as I'm not a woman?).

Would you be okay with being a really feminine guy with no hair on his body and no beard? If not, this may not really be about wanting to be a guy in general, but a specific kind of guy. Which is fine. But it's something to consider and evaluate.

Currently, yes. If I could be male and still tiny/feminine/hairless/whatever, I'd jump all over that. ... Of course, I'm still worried that I've deluded myself.

You can do that as a woman, though. If men didn't have those social roles, how would you feel? If women were the protectors and providers, and men were not, would you still feel the way you do? Have you examined the possibility of being agender/genderqueer/etc.?

I don't know, because I don't know what that world looks like.  I know that's a huge cop-out and this is meant to be a thought experiment, but in a world like that I'd have been raised an entirely different way.  I think I would be less doubtful, if those social cues were on men, because if I was still choosing to be a man despite those, I would be 'for sure'? *shrugs*

Not messed up. You seem pretty confused though. I strongly recommend seeing a therapist, which is something you have to do (in most cases) prior to starting hormones anyway. You need to talk to someone who's used to working with trans* people and can help you work through your questions.

Hey there, thanks so much for the feedback.  I'm sorry it was confusing -- I confuse myself quite a bit too.
About autism -- I don't know? I have no diagnosis, and my parents have never expressed any concern about it, and are fairly well-educated people on the matter.  I don't think they would've ignored anything like that if they noticed.  How would I be able to tell?

I responded to a few of those up in bold, because I'm dumb and can't figure out how to reply clearly.

Thanks for clarifying; I have a different perspective on your situation now than I originally did. You sound a lot like me when I was a teenager. I know you're not one, since you said you were in college, but we all have our own journey.

Quote from: jackalope on January 20, 2014, 10:35:42 AM
re: the bolded bit, I'm sorry to say I think I'm one of those people.  I very much subscribe to the theory that if someone is actually trans, it's got to do with the physical development of their brain during early fetal formation. 

I worry that because I was raised female, in this society, that I've internalized the misogyny forced upon me,

(And no, I just like Jackalopes.  Which, incidentally, is how I accidentally arrived at my male name of Jack.  My friends called me that before I could tell them not to and it stuck.)

That's an interesting question.  I would say I would prefer to be an old man, but..ost important part of it...

Why would you hate to say that you are a person that believes that trans is a medical condition. I think this is the most common viewpoint, from what I've been able to observe (at least here).

Well there is self-hate by women. But I don't know that it expresses itself quite the same way. If you knew you were male at a young age, well I guess it is possible. I think self-hate might be expressed by WISHING you were male, that it is quite different than believing you ARE male.

I am not as enthused about the "can you see yourself as an old woman?" thing. I guess, I am a lot closer to that mark, and I agree with you that even I either can't or don't want to or something see myself as "old" period (although I am pretty sure most teens here would think I am old. LOL. I am more into the idea of living for NOW. OTOH, I have heard people say that this is extremely helpful for them. So it IS helpful, I am not going to say "well don't use that". So if it helpful, go for it.

Sorry re: the Jackalope. We have such good services here. But they are cool, no doubt.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on January 20, 2014, 12:25:22 PM
Why would you hate to say that you are a person that believes that trans is a medical condition. I think this is the most common viewpoint, from what I've been able to observe (at least here).

Well there is self-hate by women. But I don't know that it expresses itself quite the same way. If you knew you were male at a young age, well I guess it is possible. I think self-hate might be expressed by WISHING you were male, that it is quite different than believing you ARE male.

I am not as enthused about the "can you see yourself as an old woman?" thing. I guess, I am a lot closer to that mark, and I agree with you that even I either can't or don't want to or something see myself as "old" period (although I am pretty sure most teens here would think I am old. LOL. I am more into the idea of living for NOW. OTOH, I have heard people say that this is extremely helpful for them. So it IS helpful, I am not going to say "well don't use that". So if it helpful, go for it.

Sorry re: the Jackalope. We have such good services here. But they are cool, no doubt.

--Jay

I've seen this one or two other times on the internet, and I'm a bit confused -- what do you mean by wishing vs believing?  I can see where self-hate may lead me to wish I was anything but myself, but trans people (who are female, transdudes), surely don't BELIEVE they are male?  they will always be female. ... i might be getting to into definitions here, though.

so, wishing i'm a man vs. believing i'm a man -- don't all (FTM) trans people wish they were men?  isn't that the point of being trans?  i'm having trouble separating the differences here

You remind me of myself a little. I've spent years worrying I'd deluded myself into thinking I was trans (sometimes the little voice in my head still says I did).
I felt I wanted to belong to a group (sounds silly now) or wanted to find something that was wrong with me I could fix. I'm well known for overthinking things until issues magically appear so I figured I was just overthinking my 'not fitting in'. For me, I realised I don't do this with being trans only, I often think I deluded myself into thinking I'm good at something, I'm feeling something, I'm... So that helped me with accepting I wasn't imagining anything. Also I figured I've had these feelings for 6 years now, they're not going away even when I don't feed them (I went of the internet and didn't allow myself to talk about it). But the thing that helped out the most for me was going to a meeting and presenting as male, for me that was homecoming and that moment I just knew that it was going to make me feel better to allow myself to do something about these feelings.
My therapist told me people do this more often than you think (the 'i'm thinking myself into it') and he said it's a form of hiding from making a decision (because you'll never know for sure). He told me to step away from thinking and step into feeling and trust your feelings, out of your head into your heart. Easier said then done off course, I found my way (supportgroup and presenting) to do that, you'll have to find yours. I'm not saying you are trans by the way, that's something you'll have to feel out for yourself.

About believing-wishing. I wish I was born with a male body but I do feel I AM male. I know I don't have the 'parts' so to speak but I identify as male and I feel male. I think that's wat aleon means with wishing-believing (if it's not I'm sorry)

Quote from: jackalope on January 20, 2014, 01:44:41 PM
I've seen this one or two other times on the internet, and I'm a bit confused -- what do you mean by wishing vs believing?  I can see where self-hate may lead me to wish I was anything but myself, but trans people (who are female, transdudes), surely don't BELIEVE they are male?  they will always be female. ... i might be getting to into definitions here, though.

so, wishing i'm a man vs. believing i'm a man -- don't all (FTM) trans people wish they were men?  isn't that the point of being trans?  i'm having trouble separating the differences here

Hmm, I guess wishing yourself to be something means you know in your mind that you are not male. But you wish things were otherwise. A lot of times wishing is rather situation specific. So that if you wish you were a male, you might wish you were, at work or when you are out late at night. But you might not wish you were male when you are out on the town. I also think there is something there where you would think it would be a good thing to be male because of what you might get out of it. (I don't mean a flat chest either), some sort of privilege (not getting cat calls say).

Believing/actually maybe should not use that word, but I think there is a gap between the point when you know yourself to be male (in some cases anyway). It is a lot less situation specific. I also think that there it is much less of a wanting some kind of thing out of it. I actually admire women more than say white men, but too bad.

I don't know does that help?

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on January 20, 2014, 02:25:20 PM
Hmm, I guess wishing yourself to be something means you know in your mind that you are not male. But you wish things were otherwise. A lot of times wishing is rather situation specific. So that if you wish you were a male, you might wish you were, at work or when you are out late at night. But you might not wish you were male when you are out on the town. I also think there is something there where you would think it would be a good thing to be male because of what you might get out of it. (I don't mean a flat chest either), some sort of privilege (not getting cat calls say).

Believing/actually maybe should not use that word, but I think there is a gap between the point when you know yourself to be male (in some cases anyway). It is a lot less situation specific. I also think that there it is much less of a wanting some kind of thing out of it. I actually admire women more than say white men, but too bad.

I don't know does that help?

--Jay

... not entirely.  it's a confusing concept for me because.... i dunno, i can't understand why trans people wouldn't wish they were whatever the opposite sex is?  isn't that why most people undergo hormone treatment/surgical procedures?  if it helps any, i "wish" i was male consistently, and not just in situations where it would make life easier? ... (but, of course, that ties back into the self-delusion thing)

perhaps i'm using the words differently than you.  for me "believing" i'm male -would- make me delusional, because i know i am female. 46XX, grown and developed on an estrogen system.  i suppose currently i could say i "believe" i'm a man?  i feel like a dude, but, again, this is of no comfort to me either way because i could still feasibly be massively confused/deluded.

I don't know this is all confusing to me . Let me just tell you me. I've mentally related to my environment  as a female Since age 4. I've never felt I've belong as a male . I really don't like being male and never have . physically I'm male. Mentally I most definitely am not. I've been like this quite a long time. For me I know I'll die with this condition whether I accept it or not. I finally transitioned because life is not worth it for me as male. For me the question of whether I see my self as an old women or old man  is irrelevant  because it's my well being in the present and each day forward that I'm concerned about. I'm definitely not going to worry about the distant future when the pain is right now. I'm just trying to express my self because the question is difficult.

Quote from: jackalope on January 20, 2014, 02:52:47 PM
... not entirely.  it's a confusing concept for me because.... i dunno, i can't understand why trans people wouldn't wish they were whatever the opposite sex is?  isn't that why most people undergo hormone treatment/surgical procedures?  if it helps any, i "wish" i was male consistently, and not just in situations where it would make life easier? ... (but, of course, that ties back into the self-delusion thing)

perhaps i'm using the words differently than you.  for me "believing" i'm male -would- make me delusional, because i know i am female. 46XX, grown and developed on an estrogen system.  i suppose currently i could say i "believe" i'm a man?  i feel like a dude, but, again, this is of no comfort to me either way because i could still feasibly be massively confused/deluded.

Hmm, that's an interesting proposition. All I would say on this is that speaking personally, there were times... many times, if I'm honest, where I deeply wished I wasn't mentally and emotionally female. I still do, actually, at times. Not least of which because that would make life so much easier. It would make the dysphoric physical feelings go away, it would make it easier to "fit in", to "be normal". It would make a lot more things make a lot more sense.

But I have found out that, in my case at least, it's not something you have a great deal of control over. However much you wish something was or wasn't the case... what is, is. I think maybe that's what Jay is getting at by mentioning belief. It's something... hmm... deeper than a surface desire to be something. It's a state of being... a sort of nagging mindset that, no matter how many times you explain it away, it comes back and is always there, influencing the way you think, feel and act. Whether you wish it was, or wasn't there. It doesn't have to be a physical "I look in the mirror and this is what I see, ergo this is who I am". In fact, for a lot of people here, that is the last indicator that has relation to their identity, and the one which the most dissociation is felt with.

Quote from: Sephirah on January 20, 2014, 03:08:49 PM
Hmm, that's an interesting proposition. All I would say on this is that speaking personally, there were times... many times, if I'm honest, where I deeply wished I wasn't mentally and emotionally female. I still do, actually, at times. Not least of which because that would make life so much easier. It would make the dysphoric physical feelings go away, it would make it easier to "fit in", to "be normal". It would make a lot more things make a lot more sense.

But I have found out that, in my case at least, it's not something you have a great deal of control over. However much you wish something was or wasn't the case... what is, is. I think maybe that's what Jay is getting at by mentioning belief. It's something... hmm... deeper than a surface desire to be something. It's a state of being... a sort of nagging mindset that, no matter how many times you explain it away, it comes back and is always there, influencing the way you think, feel and act. Whether you wish it was, or wasn't there. It doesn't have to be a physical "I look in the mirror and this is what I see, ergo this is who I am". In fact, for a lot of people here, that is the last indicator that has relation to their identity, and the one which the most dissociation is felt with.

yes, the mirror

There seems to be some confusion over sex and gender in this threads OP. I'm just going to spew my view of this and hope it helps.

Sex: Your physical body. In my case, I am physically female, but I wish I wasn't. I experince dysphoria because my physical sex does not match my gender. I have done double-takes when seeing myself in the mirror, because my mental image of myself does not match up to what is there physically.

Gender: Who I am, mentally and emotionally, what I identify as. I am a man, not a woman (or other), regardless of what my sex is.
My gender is male. I *know* this, though sometimes I wish I was female, because that would make life so much simpler. This does not mean that I am a walking stereotype (who loves only cars and beer, what have you), but that I experience and see the world through a masculine lense.

Often this kind of explanation is followed by things like;

Sexual Orientation: Who I am attracted to sexually.

Romantic Orientation: Who I am attracted to romantically, which does not always match up with sexual orientation. (For example: JD and Turk from Scrubs have pretty much stated that they are in love (or so I'm told), but they have no sexual attraction towards each other.)

Quote from: jackalope on January 20, 2014, 02:52:47 PM
... not entirely.  it's a confusing concept for me because.... i dunno, i can't understand why trans people wouldn't wish they were whatever the opposite sex is?  isn't that why most people undergo hormone treatment/surgical procedures?  if it helps any, i "wish" i was male consistently, and not just in situations where it would make life easier? ... (but, of course, that ties back into the self-delusion thing)

perhaps i'm using the words differently than you.  for me "believing" i'm male -would- make me delusional, because i know i am female. 46XX, grown and developed on an estrogen system.  i suppose currently i could say i "believe" i'm a man?  i feel like a dude, but, again, this is of no comfort to me either way because i could still feasibly be massively confused/deluded.

Well... we don't WISH because we already ARE. Would some of us wish ourselves to be CIS. For sure, but I think that's a different thing. The other thing the wishing with a cis person is temporary. They don't wish themselves to be male all the time, they might wish themselves to be male if it would make things easier or more advantageous.

It isn't "delusional" because trans is a real thing. Maybe believing is a hard/wrong word, just say we are male. Doesn't involve delusion. A trans male is still male. Your body is not male, but there is a lot more to being human than the body. It's in your brain, that you are male, but there is very likely something physiological going on.




--Jay

Quote from: jackalope on January 20, 2014, 01:44:41 PM
I've seen this one or two other times on the internet, and I'm a bit confused -- what do you mean by wishing vs believing?  I can see where self-hate may lead me to wish I was anything but myself, but trans people (who are female, transdudes), surely don't BELIEVE they are male?  they will always be female. ... i might be getting to into definitions here, though.

so, wishing i'm a man vs. believing i'm a man -- don't all (FTM) trans people wish they were men?  isn't that the point of being trans?  i'm having trouble separating the differences here

I am a man. My physical body doesn't define who I am. If I were a woman who wished I were a guy, I wouldn't transition and wouldn't consider myself transgender. There's nothing wrong with being a woman; I'm just not one. When I hit puberty, I was so shocked by my menstrual cycle that I thought I was dying in spite of being thoroughly taught about what to expect. I didn't think it would happen to me because I knew even then that I wasn't a girl - so why would something that only happens to girls happen to me? Not everyone has the same experience, but that's mine.

It's not about wishing. The funny thing is, I spent years wishing I were female. Not because I wanted to be, but because it would've been easier that way. As I grew up, I realized that I wouldn't be the same person if that happened. Haven't looked back since.

Quote from: DCQ on January 20, 2014, 06:06:09 PM
I am a man. My physical body doesn't define who I am. If I were a woman who wished I were a guy, I wouldn't transition and wouldn't consider myself transgender. There's nothing wrong with being a woman; I'm just not one. When I hit puberty, I was so shocked by my menstrual cycle that I thought I was dying in spite of being thoroughly taught about what to expect. I didn't think it would happen to me because I knew even then that I wasn't a girl - so why would something that only happens to girls happen to me? Not everyone has the same experience, but that's mine.

It's not about wishing. The funny thing is, I spent years wishing I were female. Not because I wanted to be, but because it would've been easier that way. As I grew up, I realized that I wouldn't be the same person if that happened. Haven't looked back since.

This is basically how I feel. I think when a lot of people say they wish they were men though, they mean they wish they were male sexed. Or they don't feel secure in their maleness just yet.

I sometimes still wish I was female so I could spend my surgery money on something like a car. You know, like other people my age do. It gets me down.