So, a while back I came out to my boss that I'm MtF, it went well but, has had its ups and downs, well, I found out that my boss said I must use the men's restroom even if I wear make up and when I said to him, don't you think it'd look weird/be a problem with the customers if I was wearing make up and they saw me coming out of the restroom he said no, not really. Anyway He said I can wear my female uniform, make up and they won't call me male titles such as he, sir etc. but they will call me by my name, they won't call me by the name which I wish to be called and why is all this happening to me even though they have a policy stating they don't discriminate again genetics? Well, discrimination is why. My boss said they're worried about what the customers will think seeing a male come out of the woman's restroom DESPITE the fact that A) I can pass as a woman and B) Him admitting to me he's used the woman's restroom before when the other was occupied. Oh and did I mention we're talking about SINGLE STALL restrooms here? YEAH!  He also said the reason why they won't call me by the name I came up with, female titles and won't let me use the woman's restroom etc. is because of what my ID and my BIRTH CERTIFICATE says for my name/gender!! I mean, they can enforce the name if I get it legally changed but how am I supposed to know if I want to pay to have this name if NO ONE is calling me by it!? >_< (Don't know if I'll stink with it or not) But the female titles and bathroom wouldn't change even if I handed them a document from a therapist who even specializes in gender therapy stating that I'm a MtF and from what I understand, the only way to get the gender changed on those is to have SRS which I don't know I I want to do or not and this isn't fair to me on so many lvs. This is WRONG! I'm being discriminated against here and they have a freaking policy on this to boot and really, I need to find another job ASAP! One that won't do this crap to me and continually put my life in danger since yes, I'm female fully out in public save for the darn work! >_<

Can anyone help me here? Is there anything I can do? I told my Dad all this and he said it's not discrimination...that's despite him saying earlier if I was to go get that document from the therapist then I might have a leg to stand on legal wise...  In short I DOUBT he's going to help me get legal justice here...so if I can get it via phone then who do I call? I wonder, is there anyone I can call in regards to this? I mean LGBT or HR maybe? Anyone got their number'(s) for the US? Really, would be nice to have someone to talk to on this whole mess who knows what I'm going through and or has knowledge in this area, especially legal wise. Oh, did I mention my Dad said even if I got another job, it'd be the same everywhere else for the bathroom and stuff as at the place I'm at now...please, tell me the truth, is what he said true or not?...

Check the trans section of the GLAD and ACLU websites for resources to contact.

HR is an option, and eventually you should probably talk to them, but start with a completely 3rd party.

Discrimination laws vary by state, and even within the state different municipalities may have differing discrimination laws. In my state, and in the city I live in, it's not illegal to discriminate against trans folks. But, in the city I work in there are discrimination laws protecting trans folk. So, that would be one area to research. If you have a local LGBT center they would probably have some legal resources for you.

Also, if you have a copy of your employee handbook, pour through that for their specific section on discrimination. Read through that for anything applicable for you before talking to HR. But, I would talk to HR before going through a third party because a lot of business will become threatened by you bringing in an outside party right off the bat, and if you don't live in a "right to work" state, they could, and probably will based upon what you've said so far has happened to you, consider you a liability and find some reason to terminate you.

Also, although I'm pretty sure California is the only state in the US that has it codified in their labor laws, I would personally, if I were in your shoes, feel like I was being set up for a "constructive discharge"... That's only illegal in california though, and it's hard to prove.

Get your carry letter and you'll have a *lot* more ground to stand on.

Unfortunately, discrimination against genetics does not include transgendered people at this time. To stop trans discrimination, the policy you're reading should say "gender identity," or much less commonly, "gender expression."

In my personal opinion, I think you may want to consider looking for new work. The description you've given of your boss' approach sounds very mixed. It's as though he wants to be tolerant, but is making up his own safe little rules for it. The part that absolutely confuses me the most is being okay with using female pronouns on you, but forcing you to use your legal name. That smacks pretty heavily of discrimination or at the very least profound, dismissive ignorance, and even if you manage to get intervention from HR and force people to address you in your chosen name, there may still be a lot of underlying tension and subtle disrespect for who and what you are.

It is of course possible that it could all take a turn for the better and people would be supportive about it eventually, but waiting around for people to be respectful towards you -- especially when they're told to be -- is not something I generally find to be worth the time and effort. I don't mean to be dark, but the idea is all very sad and awful and I'd hate to see you have to pour far too much pain into it.

Quote from: Sybil on January 28, 2014, 10:07:16 PM
It is of course possible that it could all take a turn for the better and people would be supportive about it eventually, but waiting around for people to be respectful towards you -- especially when they're told to be -- is not something I generally find to be worth the time and effort. I don't mean to be dark, but the idea is all very sad and awful and I'd hate to see you have to pour far too much pain into it.

I would tend to agree with this. But, if their discrimination policy actually does cover gender identity, and you're strong enough, it may be worth sticking it out, because in all likelihood it wont get better even when they're told to be, and the you've got grounds for a lawsuit.

I myself am pretty sure, that despite the city I work in having trans discrimination laws, and my workplace itself having a transgender discrimination policy, that if I came out at my current job my workplace would become very hostile. I want to leave before going full time for that reason alone, but, there's the nagging voice in the back of my mind that says "no, just hang out for a while, let 'em treat you like crap. Then you can use the money from the resulting lawsuit to fully fund your transition."

Short answer: Find another job.

Long answer: Contact the HR Dept and get the specific company policy regarding gender identity you mentioned in your post above in writing. If they do not have a written policy regarding gender identity or gender expression (few companies do), it really is open to the employers interpretation. IE you have to play by what they say. Also  find out if you are living in a "at will nature of employment" state. What this means is basically if you live in such a state, an employer can terminate you with or without cause for any reason they deem fit, and you have little recourse. If you want to pursue legal recourse, see these sites:
http://www.lambdalegal.org/
http://www.eeoc.gov/
http://www.hrc.org/

PS: What your dad said is completely wrong. Many employers are much more accommodating and understanding with regards to trans-employees. IE they will let you use whichever restroom you prefer, and will call you by your preferred name, regardless if your BC has been changed or not.

Again... look for another job... and consider a legal name change. It will make things much easier later down the road.

I can't really comment on the name situation but as for the bathroom situation, there is a justification that I very rarely see used in this situation but I have used to great effect in being able to use the proper restroom.

Men's and women's restrooms are separated to keep women safe from predatory men. If you look like a woman (please pardon the phrasing, I'm not trying to imply you aren't a woman but trying to phrase it in a way a clueless cisgendered person may understand) and were forced to use the mens restroom, what is to keep you safe from predatory men who couldn't tell you from our cisgendered counterparts? Perhaps if he saw that there was a good chance that there would be an incident of violence, rape or murder and that the blood would be on the company's hands, he would be persuaded to let you use the correct restroom.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-beyer/burying-the-lede-federal-transgender-employment-protections_b_3937357.html

My old boss at my job tried the same name stuff with me. I pointed out that we had three employees on staff other then myself that were using nicknames or middle names and by not honoring my choice in name, he was guilty of discrimination.

As for bathroom, same thing. Until my HR rep met with me and agreed I would be in far more danger using the men's room.

Quote from: Oriah on January 28, 2014, 11:09:37 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-beyer/burying-the-lede-federal-transgender-employment-protections_b_3937357.html

Ok, I want to make sure I'm understanding what this blog is saying. It's saying, regardless of whether the discrimination policy has gender identity or not, so long as it has sex in the policy then they can't discriminate against trans people or they could get in trouble with the law. Did I get that right?

Quote from: missadventure on January 28, 2014, 09:54:06 PM

Also, if you have a copy of your employee handbook, pour through that for their specific section on discrimination. Read through that for anything applicable for you before talking to HR. But, I would talk to HR before going through a third party because a lot of business will become threatened by you bringing in an outside party right off the bat, and if you don't live in a "right to work" state, they could, and probably will based upon what you've said so far has happened to you, consider you a liability and find some reason to terminate you.

Also, although I'm pretty sure California is the only state in the US that has it codified in their labor laws, I would personally, if I were in your shoes, feel like I was being set up for a "constructive discharge"... That's only illegal in california though, and it's hard to prove.

Sadly, I honestly get the feeling they're planning on doing that without a 2nd thought simply based on what my boss said to me which was "If this becomes a distraction or gets in the way of your work then I'll have to send you home" I don't remember if he said anything in regards to people coming to him about me being who I am (Such as customers) but based on past talks, and this one, I honestly think he'd fire me should this be a problem for other people and he gets too many complaints. I say this knowing that my boss is a good person (Albeit with his faults on this matter) and knowing that I really like working at this place and it's one of the "better" places out there to work at.

Actually, I DO feel like that already. It's sad I or anyone should be discriminated like this but it's even sadder that only 1 state has a law in regards to constructive discharge.

Quote from: Sybil on January 28, 2014, 10:07:16 PM
Unfortunately, discrimination against genetics does not include transgendered people at this time. To stop trans discrimination, the policy you're reading should say "gender identity," or much less commonly, "gender expression."

In my personal opinion, I think you may want to consider looking for new work. The description you've given of your boss' approach sounds very mixed. It's as though he wants to be tolerant, but is making up his own safe little rules for it. The part that absolutely confuses me the most is being okay with using female pronouns on you, but forcing you to use your legal name. That smacks pretty heavily of discrimination or at the very least profound, dismissive ignorance, and even if you manage to get intervention from HR and force people to address you in your chosen name, there may still be a lot of underlying tension and subtle disrespect for who and what you are.

It is of course possible that it could all take a turn for the better and people would be supportive about it eventually, but waiting around for people to be respectful towards you -- especially when they're told to be -- is not something I generally find to be worth the time and effort. I don't mean to be dark, but the idea is all very sad and awful and I'd hate to see you have to pour far too much pain into it.

Okabe sends his regards Makise Kurisu. Anyway, yeah, I was looking for that the moment I got my hands on the book, but, it only has such and such and sex and genetics. Nothing on gender identity which sucks. lol But, from what I read in that blog I quoted the link to above, sounds like it shouldn't matter. It was an interesting read but, I'm not convinced what it's saying will hold up in court let alone at work and such.

Already wanting to find new work, just didn't want it to be this soon nor because of this. Yup, I can tell he's being tolerable but I can also tell this bothers him and thus is one of the reasons why when he went to HIS BOSS who doesn't work in the building (My boss is the boss of the store, the GM) from what he told me, all that they're doing is based on what I said which came from that person. It should be noted I was supposed to meet with him recently on this matter but never did due to no show which I can't help but suspect that my boss hasn't even gone to him. Oh, also, no he told me they are not doing female pronouns at all but instead using my name to refer to me in place of said titles. -_- I HATE they're using it as a shield or rather as a fall back which doesn't work here. But yeah, the thing that they ARE doing to me is saying I can wear the female uniform and make up yet I still have to use the single stall bathroom for the men's. -_- 

Nope. You aren't being dark at all here and I can't agree with you more on that. If they were family and friends then it'd be more worth poring my time, energy and LIFE into it and putting up with the pain and such but they aren't, most are good people from my time around them before they knew the truth (Albeit I'm certain my boss didn't tell them everything based on all that's being done/been said) but that's not good enough for me to go through this. (Besides, went through enough with my Dad and step mom as it is on who and what I am recently)

Quote from: JennX on January 28, 2014, 10:28:20 PM
PS: What your dad said is completely wrong. Many employers are much more accommodating and understanding with regards to trans-employees. IE they will let you use whichever restroom you prefer, and will call you by your preferred name, regardless if your BC has been changed or not.

Again... look for another job... and consider a legal name change. It will make things much easier later down the road.

Thank you. I already knew he was wrong from my time on here and reading some of the member's posts here on how their coming out at work went, but to hear this from someone else has really made me believe this without a doubt. Thank you. Also it's good to hear some will do that, regardless of ID/BC and such.

The legal name change I wouldn't mind if, I knew for certainty I wouldn't get bored of the name and not come to feel as though it's not my real name. Unfortunately that is hard to know when atm, NO ONE calls me by said name.

Quote from: MissC on January 28, 2014, 10:35:32 PM
I can't really comment on the name situation but as for the bathroom situation, there is a justification that I very rarely see used in this situation but I have used to great effect in being able to use the proper restroom.

Men's and women's restrooms are separated to keep women safe from predatory men. If you look like a woman (please pardon the phrasing, I'm not trying to imply you aren't a woman but trying to phrase it in a way a clueless cisgendered person may understand) and were forced to use the mens restroom, what is to keep you safe from predatory men who couldn't tell you from our cisgendered counterparts? Perhaps if he saw that there was a good chance that there would be an incident of violence, rape or murder and that the blood would be on the company's hands, he would be persuaded to let you use the correct restroom.

I "tired" to stress that to my boss (Not on the rape but hey, murder/life in danger/bullying WAS mentioned) and you can already see where that got me at this place. lol I can try once more though and this time mentioning rape but for now, I don't know what my next move will be. Oh and no worries on the if I look like a woman, I know what you meant. But even then, all my boss sees is a man. Ugh. -_- I say that even though I DO look like a woman and do pass in public but you know people who know your "body's" gender. lol Hem, guess I should also stress how if that was to happen to me it'd be not only on his hands but on the company's hands too. Thanks.

Quote from: VikkiM on January 29, 2014, 12:05:27 AM
My old boss at my job tried the same name stuff with me. I pointed out that we had three employees on staff other then myself that were using nicknames or middle names and by not honoring my choice in name, he was guilty of discrimination.

As for bathroom, same thing. Until my HR rep met with me and agreed I would be in far more danger using the men's room.

And, did he honor your choice of name? For me, I pointed what you said out to him and when he mentioned it to his boss, well obviously the reason why they aren't doing it is because it isn't my legal name nor is it any form of my legal names whether shortened or lengthened.

*Needs to meet with a HR rep herself here* I hope HR and stuff like this doesn't cost money? :/

Since I do represent trans* people in discrimination cases, let me see if I can put on my lawyer hat and provide some helpful information.  Unlike many of the questions we grapple with on this website, legal questions often do have right and wrong answers.  So I have to acknowledge that there is quite a bit of bad information in this thread. 

The big question is:  where are you?  U.S. laws vary from state to state and even from town to town.  And U.S. law on discrimination against transgender people is particularly variable.  If you want legal help, then that question also affects who I can help you find because you need someone licensed in your jurisdiction.

Lambda Legal and the Transgender Law Center also have the ability to offer referrals.  You can find their contact information on their websites.  Contact them and they can offer further help. 

Your post is a bit hard to read, but let me see if I can offer some helpful info on some of the specifics. 

Quote from: Shana-chan on January 28, 2014, 09:27:23 PM
So, a while back I came out to my boss that I'm MtF, it went well but, has had its ups and downs, well, I found out that my boss said I must use the men's restroom even if I wear make up and when I said to him, don't you think it'd look weird/be a problem with the customers if I was wearing make up and they saw me coming out of the restroom he said no, not really.

The EEOC currently takes the position that discrimination against transgender people because of being transgender is a form of sex discrimination.  Courts outrank the EEOC, and not all courts agree.  But at an absolute minimum, this means that the EEOC is a big gorilla that most employers won't want to fight with, and it's willing to take trans* discrimination seriously.  And the EEOC has been holding unwillingness to allow access to identity-appropriate restrooms to be a form of discrimination.  I have a copy of an EEOC determination on that and I'd love to attach it to this post, but alas the "attachments and other options" do not appear to include attachments.

Quote from: Shana-chan on January 28, 2014, 09:27:23 PM
Anyway He said I can wear my female uniform, make up and they won't call me male titles such as he, sir etc. but they will call me by my name, they won't call me by the name which I wish to be called and why is all this happening to me even though they have a policy stating they don't discriminate again genetics?

Discrimination based on genetic status is most likely irrelevant.  The magic words you want are "gender identity." 

There is EEOC activity around whether employers must use an employee's preferred name, and finding that failure to do so is also prohibited discrimination.  But I do not remember off the top of my head whether it was required that the employee change names first.

Quote from: Shana-chan on January 28, 2014, 09:27:23 PM
Well, discrimination is why. My boss said they're worried about what the customers will think seeing a male come out of the woman's restroom DESPITE the fact that A) I can pass as a woman and B) Him admitting to me he's used the woman's restroom before when the other was occupied. Oh and did I mention we're talking about SINGLE STALL restrooms here? YEAH!  He also said the reason why they won't call me by the name I came up with, female titles and won't let me use the woman's restroom etc. is because of what my ID and my BIRTH CERTIFICATE says for my name/gender!! I mean, they can enforce the name if I get it legally changed but how am I supposed to know if I want to pay to have this name if NO ONE is calling me by it!? >_< (Don't know if I'll stink with it or not)

Usually trans* people experiment with names before going full time.  Not as a legal matter, but as a practical matter, it is not very realistic to expect the workplace to update all their records every few months and expect coworkers to change names every few months as a trans* person experiments with different names. 

Quote from: Shana-chan on January 28, 2014, 09:27:23 PM
But the female titles and bathroom wouldn't change even if I handed them a document from a therapist who even specializes in gender therapy stating that I'm a MtF and from what I understand, the only way to get the gender changed on those is to have SRS which I don't know I I want to do or not and this isn't fair to me on so many lvs. This is WRONG! I'm being discriminated against here and they have a freaking policy on this to boot and really, I need to find another job ASAP! One that won't do this crap to me and continually put my life in danger since yes, I'm female fully out in public save for the darn work! >_<

I would describe the "carry letter"  or other letter from a therapist as being basically irrelevant.  It might help defuse situations if someone finds it persuasive, but from a legal standpoint, I don't think it matters.  But the good news is, you don't need a "carry letter" to be treated fairly.

Quote from: Shana-chan on January 28, 2014, 09:27:23 PM
Can anyone help me here? Is there anything I can do? I told my Dad all this and he said it's not discrimination...that's despite him saying earlier if I was to go get that document from the therapist then I might have a leg to stand on legal wise...  In short I DOUBT he's going to help me get legal justice here...so if I can get it via phone then who do I call? I wonder, is there anyone I can call in regards to this? I mean LGBT or HR maybe? Anyone got their number'(s) for the US? Really, would be nice to have someone to talk to on this whole mess who knows what I'm going through and or has knowledge in this area, especially legal wise. Oh, did I mention my Dad said even if I got another job, it'd be the same everywhere else for the bathroom and stuff as at the place I'm at now...please, tell me the truth, is what he said true or not?...

Well, it definitely sounds like discrimination.  I suggested some places for qualified legal help above.  If I knew where you were, I might also be able to help find a referral to competent counsel. 

Of course as always when discussing legal stuff, the usual disclaimer applies:  I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer.  The above is only general information based on information I know off the top of my head, not based on exhaustive legal research.  You should consult competent counsel located in your jurisdiction to give advice on your specific situation.  I am assuming no duties to act as counsel and no attorney-client relationship exists.

Quote from: Oriah on January 28, 2014, 11:09:37 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-beyer/burying-the-lede-federal-transgender-employment-protections_b_3937357.html

With all due respect to Dana Beyer, whom I know well, she does not understand law and her advice should be taken with a ginormous grain of salt. 

Yes, Macy v. Holder is a big deal.  It means trans* people have a big ally.  But outside the federal government, it is binding on no one.  Court rulings are binding.  And in some parts of the country, court rulings say that trans* people are not protected.  The message Dana likes to put out that trans* people are protected in all 50 states is misleading at best, and even the EEOC has disavowed that position in presentations I have attended.  The reason for the LGBT community being silent about trans* people being protected in all 50 states is simple:  most people understand that they aren't.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 29, 2014, 09:38:10 AM
With all due respect to Dana Beyer, whom I know well, she does not understand law and her advice should be taken with a ginormous grain of salt. 

Yes, Macy v. Holder is a big deal.  It means trans* people have a big ally.  But outside the federal government, it is binding on no one.  Court rulings are binding.  And in some parts of the country, court rulings say that trans* people are not protected.  The message Dana likes to put out that trans* people are protected in all 50 states is misleading at best, and even the EEOC has disavowed that position in presentations I have attended.  The reason for the LGBT community being silent about trans* people being protected in all 50 states is simple:  most people understand that they aren't.

And this is why we need ENDA.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 29, 2014, 09:38:10 AM
Yes, Macy v. Holder is a big deal.  It means trans* people have a big ally.  But outside the federal government, it is binding on no one. 

How does the Cori McCreary case fit into that? She wasn't a government employee or contractor, yet didn't the EEOC penalize the employer?

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 30, 2014, 07:56:32 AM
How does the Cori McCreary case fit into that? She wasn't a government employee or contractor, yet didn't the EEOC penalize the employer?

No. 

Many (probably most) employers will reach a settlement agreement rather than fight against the EEOC.  Not many employers will be inclined to risk the bad publicity, the expensive legal fees, and the risk of losing that come with defending a discriminatory process.  That's why Macy v. Holder is a big deal.  Once the EEOC tells an employer that it thinks the employer has discriminated against someone, most employers will fold and reach a settlement agreement.  That is what happened in the Cori McCreery case and the Lambda Legal release about the case is very explicit about it.  See this link:

http://www.lambdalegal.org/blog/victory-lambda-legal-helps-south-dakota-transgender-employee-win-landmark-settlement-after-wrongful-termination

The very first sentence is:  "Today Lambda Legal announced a landmark settlement for Cori McCreery, a transgender woman in South Dakota who was terminated from her job after she informed her employer that she would be taking steps to transition from male to female at work." (Bold added by me).

So relatively few employers will be likely to litigate the issue and see how courts would rule on it.  But that does not mean that the settled law is on the trans* persons side.  In fact, in much of the country, an employer willing to risk the bad publicity and to incur the legal expenses would, barring a change in law, probably win because the appellate courts covering the area have said trans* people are not protected by Title VII.  And of course the EEOC could change its mind in the future. 

This gets into complicated legal stuff, and it's more complicated than I've described here.  But the bottom line is that, as someone else said, this is why we need ENDA. 

AGAIN, EEOC APPLIES TO ANY EMPLOYER WITH 15, OR MORE EMPLOYEES. ANY, LOCAL, STATE, FEDERAL, OR PRIVATE EMPLOYER IN THE UNITED STATES. EVEN ALABAMA.

MACY V HOLDER is indeed a big win. It means that ANY employer in the U.S. can be adjudicated in violation of Federal employment discrimination law. It's based on the Civil Rights Amendment of 1964. Sex Discrimination. There are also 7 Supreme Court decisions on Sex Discrimination. They are worth reading, including, my favorite, Price Waterhouse v Hooper. In this case a woman was denied promotion because her superiors though she wasn't acting in the stereotypical way in which a woman "should" act. She won. Whether you are a trans man, woman, or whatever, you cannot be forced to conform the gender stereotypes.

Forced Gender roles are illegal--Across the board. Employment, health, insurance, etc.

Anyway, hope this helps. Stay informed. Knowledge is power.

Update!

I haven't said anything further because I've been waiting to hear the "final" decision at the place I work after I got in contact with the HR department. This decision comes from the direct of the HR department who even contacted their legal department on the matter. What I was told, was, very... encouraging and made me so happy! In short, I CAN use the women's restroom, be called female pronouns and by the name I wish to be called and they will enforce it! Plus the managers are supposed to inform the employees at least once on all of this and anything else that should be the case! I am soo happy but more so when I first heard it and a few mins afterward when I was by myself I got even happier! I look forward to finally going to work and being treated the way I wish/should be treated. I'll let you all know how it goes though maybe not in this thread. Also, I must say, this is also good for the company because, I was ready to file a complaint with the EEOC on the matter had they of continued to discriminate against me like that. (I still have the papers and will keep them for the future should I need them) Glad I don't have to file a complaint and hope I never do but also glad I don't have to continue using the men's restroom and having to go through all the crap that was going on. Here's looking to better days I believe.

Thank you everyone for all your help and advice on this whole matter. As for me and this job, I plan on staying there for a good while longer as long as they do what they said they'll do. It's a good job and I'm happy doing it. But I would like to do another job at some point in the future too.