I was going to post this in "What made you happy today?" but then it started getting too long and philosophical...

This afternoon I did something I don't think I've ever done so spontaneously before. A young woman from my workplace, one who I've admired for well over a year and who I believe I have a good close professional relationship with, was telling me how addled she felt at the end of a long stressy week and said she really "needed a beer". It was the end of the day, I was literally 30 seconds from leaving for home so I asked if she did in fact want to get a beer because if she did we should go and get it. She paused momentarily while she considered... I said "offer going, going..." and she said yes before I got to "gone".   

She's in a relationship and is some 17 years younger than me, even though I find her very attractive I certainly don't imagine for a micro second there's the remotest opportunity of anything "romantic" between us... it was just that I didn't feel like going straight home and I always enjoy chatting with her in the office and here she was saying she needed a beer, sooooo...

We had our drink at a local watering hole, and had a great chat for an hour or so and then wished each other a good weekend and went our separate ways. I had a wonderful time. 

In the past I've never felt I could ask any of the women at work to a drink without making sure I invited a few other people along for a group thing - that way (or so I reasoned) it wouldn't look like I had "ulterior motives". I really enjoy the company of women and have had many platonic relationships - well more like "85% platonic" because no matter how much I was happy for any friendship to be platonic there was always a nagging and ever-present part of me wondering about the possibility of sex... and I hated that. To me that non-platonic 15% has always felt like some dark and nasty "ulterior agenda" which I gave much more weight and significance to at various stages throughout my life. Of course it is perfectly natural to feel sexual interest and desire, but unfortunately I've always felt like the testosterone in my system had warped that natural drive into something dark and twisted that I couldn't trust about myself. It's like I've been the one who has suspected myself of having ulterior and manipulative motives... but now, without the T, I finally feel 100% relaxed around women... it's as if I've arrived in my natural comfort zone. And it's great!

How do others feel that losing T and gaining E has altered their relationship and comfort with women?

Hi Grace,
Nothing unusual about having those one on one moments with another woman. It's part and parcel, sort of "Right of Passage" thingy.

The feelings and concerns you've harboured about "alternative agendas" in nothing more than the deep and sensual discussions, communication, feeling that can exist between women. Us women are very sensual and sexual beings, more so than men will ever be. You just need to be very mindful the line between sensuality and sexuality is an extremely fine one. Tread cautiously whenever that opportunity arises. It's a mine field for the unwary.

Glad you had a great afternoon.

Huggs
Catherine

Yeah totally...

I mean with T first of all I myself would feel so much different from other girls and that alone would make me sad,,,
I think the most important thing is the libido though ,,,with T I couldnt really help it but have eeer sexual thoughts while being around girls,,,and yet again that made me sad...now I can have friendly chats as normal girls would... .

I hope in the future things will get even more casual...I guess...I dunno...

Yes. Young ladies tend to treat me like their compatriot, but my sexual orientation is loving women. They are not on their guard against me, and I tend to a little bit dismayed. Once my female friend came to my hotel room to sleep together, and we just literally slept together. Also, I sometimes chat with a female friend in women's rest room.

barbie~~

I feel a whole lot better around other woman without T.

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on January 31, 2014, 07:40:32 AM
You just need to be very mindful the line between sensuality and sexuality is an extremely fine one. Tread cautiously whenever that opportunity arises. It's a mine field for the unwary.

That's a great point. It's something that I've been aware off but almost subconsciously, as an excluded observer. I've noticed that women are more likely to compliment and touch each other, often in a way that were it between a man and a woman would be interpreted very differently indeed! I had a small taste of this at the staff Xmas lunch, I mentioned it in another post but essentially one of the ladies noticed my freshly waxed legs and asked to feel them - I loved that because it felt so right, didn't read anything more into it. But you're right, it is a very fine line indeed!

Quote from: FalsePrincess on January 31, 2014, 07:41:10 AM
I think the most important thing is the libido though ,,,with T I couldnt really help it but have eeer sexual thoughts while being around girls,,,and yet again that made me sad...now I can have friendly chats as normal girls would... .

Yes, that's exactly how I feel too. That stupid libido!! There was once a woman I had decided to remain platonic only with. We were very good friends, shared many common interests and often we would gabble and gossip together like a pair of old hens. I kept her at sexual arms length because I could see that she was particularly needy when it came to intimate relationships, she had many unrealistic expectations of the guy and also expected him to not only be a "mind reader" but to bend to what she wanted. I wanted no part of that brand of kooky! In her general relationships she was a very generous person on one hand and yet, if she felt slighted, extremely vindictive on the other. I always figured we'd have a bust up over something immature and insignificant and I was right! I did miss our time together but I wasn't heart broken about it. The thing is, I found her easy to keep as a platonic friend because I didn't find her particularly attractive, she wasn't ugly, just not my type I guess. Even so, there was a point in the friendship where I started thinking of her as my "girlfriend without benefits" (as, of course, opposed to a "friend with benefits"!)...and I did wonder if I shouldn't be trying harder to feel something sexually for her, she wanted sex and I wanted sex...maybe it was just a case of framing her in a different light. Never worked though. Fortunately my ability to avoid complications overrode my libido! Not the cas for cis gender hetro guys! Mind you, all our mutual friends knew how much time the two of us spent together and were going crazy wondering why we weren't doing it. I think this woman friend did have designs on me initially, I deliberately decided to tell her about my trans* history and that, as expected, fixed that...she treated me more as a friend and less as a potential sexual partner afterwards.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on January 31, 2014, 08:47:49 AM
I just them into eyes all the time while we are chatting and my eyes do not wander downwards to check some parts out discretly. It is very much constant face-to-face communication and it feels great.

This is so, so, so true! I always made a point of maintaining eye contact...but before I killed off my testosterone it was a struggle sometimes, especially where the dress was cut to expose cleavage. Women really hate having their bust checked out (discretely or indiscreetly) by every guy they talk to. When women talk to each other they are much more likely to maintain eye contact. Other things include not cutting each other off and not trying to find solutions for problems, they want empathy/sympathy not solutions dammit!! 

Quote from: barbie on January 31, 2014, 09:03:25 AM
Once my female friend came to my hotel room to sleep together, and we just literally slept together.

Another case where something would rarely, if ever, happen between a hetro man and woman who are not intimately involved, not without it being really awkward that is. I once had to share a hotel room with that platonic friend I mentioned above, but I made sure we had two separate beds. Most probably if I'd been living as female at that stage I wouldn't have bothered!

This has been a great thread to follow... Thank you for starting and sharing Grace.

I think it's true, that cis guys wouldn't keep the same girls at a sexual arms length the way we have, even with a libido screaming out for whoohoo. I know I've done this because I valued the friendships more than anything else that could be. And I'm so thankful for doing this, as those turned out to be the strongest friendships I have. From their point of view, I guess it really shows a character that few men have. I don't know.

While I've only been full time for a short time, everything so far has felt so comfortable and has come completely naturally. It's been such a relief as this is just one area that doesn't need any effort on my part. I spent my whole life trying to mask and hide behavior, mannerisms etc. Now it fits perfectly into my new life. And perhaps the most surprising aspect is that nothing from my old life stuck. It all fell away the moment I stopped pretending.

Still, I've yet to get back to work to see how I fare in the social side of the office. Likely it will not be the greatest gauge of comfort with other women, as word of my history spreads. I expect to be kept at arms length by most of the other employees. But that's OK... that job isn't forever . But who knows, perhaps some people will be more accepting and friendly than I expect.

I smile a lot at work but not all the time. I was told by two different girl coworker friends today to smile during conversations . I would never say that to anyone. I feel that when I talk with my work female friends we really connect but as friends.

I am attracted to females at work but never sexually. I deal with groups of guys three times a day (long days) and as work dictates. I am friendly and we connect very well and I have guys e-mail and stop to see me to talk which is fun and I am attracted to them sexually ( a little heated just thinking of them now).

hhhhm I ve been also thinking ,,,what about when we speak with guys too?

I always used to act macho and all cool when Id play the male role around my male friends...
now I dont really mind acting more soft and cute If I could put it that way...

its another liberating thing I guess...
hrt changes the way we socialize a lot I think...

Quote from: FalsePrincess on January 31, 2014, 07:08:45 PM
hhhhm I ve been also thinking ,,,what about when we speak with guys too?

I always used to act macho and all cool when Id play the male role around my male friends...
now I dont really mind acting more soft and cute If I could put it that way...

its another liberating thing I guess...
hrt changes the way we socialize a lot I think...

That's a good point FP.

I've always been like Grace in my interactions with women although I suffered the similar background hum of testosterone too. Since the injections have been driving that down my communication with all people has changed. I listen much better for a start. Also, even though it was never that strong anyway,  I feel less need to compete for talking time or to maintain control of the conversation's direction.

Overall the world just seems like a quieter and more relaxed place

I am taking this thread as a very promising sign of the potential in my future.  The eyes thing is interesting as it seems I have been doing it more and more but not really thinking about why.

I am seeing the beginnings of being more relaxed and enjoying listening more.  I also tend to feed off what they are saying rather than pushing my view in.  I have one team member (female) and the wider team is also all female (actually all of us....if only they knew it!!).  Over the past 3 months,the dynamic has changed mainly because I smile and laugh more even though I am working through the most difficult work period of my working life.  My GM commented that since October, as things have got tougher, I have smiled more! 

That all said, while I am not out at work, I am very careful.  That does not prevent me working my female social personality out.  I have never been a super macho guy, just an ordinary one I guess so I haven't got a lot of macho history to counter.  Also, Melbourne is such a rabid Aussie rules footy town, if you are not into it (there is no middle ground here), then you aren't in the guy world at all.  God its sooo boring!  So pretty much from now until September, guy talk at work is footy!  Guess I will have to talk to the girls!

Never mind, I'll manage!

I always felt inhibited and on guard when I was around women because I'd want to say something about their nails or hair or shoes and I had to remember that as a guy that would most likely come off as...... creepy, despite my best intentions. And the looking at boobs thing - as a guy I admit to doing that (hey, it was the T!), but from the other side I can see how that is a social faux pas. Heck, some people may be staring at MY boobs now 

I'm really looking forward to coming out and hopefully eventually being more accepted as just one of the girls at the office, and being able to make the comments that I've been holding back without worrying about coming across as creepy.

I feel more relaxed...like the pressure is off to put up a front. I work across from a premier wine and liquor store (a classy place not "Cheap Drinks") and myself and another woman (although I am still in "guy" mode) go over there sometimes together. It's fun to talk and relate without the sexual aspect or trying to be the manly man. I'm just me now.

I've even (carefully) started commenting on outfits and accessories.

Jane

I guess it's the opposite for me because that's all really more a post-transition kind of thing. Before I wasn't really noticing people much. Now I tend to think about making out with everyone I meet that I'm attracted to. Like just in an offhanded kind of way. And I'm pretty bad at the not-checking-people-out thing. But I guess I'm either discreet or charming enough to get away with it 'cause I haven't gotten any dirty looks for my behaviour to date. I wish I lived in a society were we were just less screwed up about that stuff. And I could just be like "wow you are super attractive... and moving on now..." I mean I'm in a totally monogamous relationship with a girl I love to death so it's not like it matters anyway...

Like I've slept in the same bed with girls I'm not having sex with before and stuff without it being an issue. And I'll flirt with most people as long as they are charming, non-threatening, and there are no expectations of anything happening--i.e., not straight dudes, cause whoa do most straight dudes not have a not-serious filter.

So I guess... not me to the "more comfortable with women" question. Or rather only to the extent that I'm more comfortable with everyone now that I'm not pretending to be a dude.

But then maybe all that is partly because I was generally taken as a gay boy pre-transition? So I didn't really have the same "omg sexual tension" dynamic going on with the ladies? Or I'm just weird.

Or... maybe it really is just getting used to being yourself, right? I mean if you are all tense and feel screwed up and playing a role that's all going to influence the way people relate to you. It isn't necessarily the sexual undercurrent. It might just be the diff. between your confidence and comfort now versus how you were before.

Like my alchemy of shy and charming, wicked and sweet... that's me. To be less sexually repressed than I was before is my nature after the frustration and hurt is stripped away. And for you it's to be less sexually obsessed and that's you, and that's where your comfort lies when you aren't trying to be someone you aren't. So... like potentially all the same thing but with different results. Or something.

I can see how one's comfort level could increase around women due to HRT.

I've always been comfortable around women, so I haven't noticed a change in comfort level.

What I have noticed is, I'm critical (internally) of women now. Especially women who are overly fem or try to be too cute. It has an anti-dysphoria affect in me. I would have to say I have less desire to hang around women now.

There is woman that I have worked with for 13 years.  She is younger than I by about 17 years.  She has a husband, two children and has been totally ignored by management.  As her children are the same age as my grandchildren, we actually would compare notes from time to time.  Prior to this change, I always wanted to talk with her just because she is nice, smart and funny but I always ended up wondering into sexual fantasy land. Now, we talk, we share and she is my friend.  I do not wonder into fantasy land.  I have also come to respect her far more as a person and as a professional. She is the first woman I came out too that wasn't related and she has been nothing but supportive.  On the other hand, I have helped her really launch her career. Not because I'm great but because she is great.  I just got people to realize that fact. This has, in a strange way, been the best friendship I have ever had and one that would never have existed if I had not decided to become me.

This transition process has led me to discover so much about women and in so doing, discover so much about myself.  Yea, it can be a painful process but it can also be so wonderful.

Hugs,

Jen

Grace and Jen, I read you both loud and clear. Finally, women are my friends!

I went on a girl date last week!!! We looked at clothes, had soup for lunch, at chocolate... Then we went back to her place and hung out with my friend Greg, her boyfriend. It was so normal it was abnormal.

So far, the women in my life have been the most supportive of my transition and the most helpful. It is like I woke up one day speaking a new language!

Catherine Sarah thinks hormones play a part in this. I would not doubt it. We don't smell like tasty men.

It's funny but I still gawk at women but now I'm looking at their fashion and makeup .

I've always been more comfortable around women than around men. I never could stand the way most men talk especially to other men about women. This goes way back to my early teens. However I will say that now that I'm on hrt I do feel different around women, like I finally belong, so to speak. And if I find a woman attractive I don't have sexual thoughts, nervousness, etc., that I used to have. We can just be friends comfortably. I can only see this part of me improving as I move along with my transition.

I've always have had problems with the way men talk. That's why I don't socialize with men in general or the guys I grew up with. That was one big reason I stopped socializing with the guys I grew up with because I desperately needed to get away. One of the best times in my life is when I had a group of friends that were all female.