Quote from: Nero on August 07, 2007, 08:17:55 PM
What puzzles me is that I've consistently heard how bad 'budding mtfs' have it growing up and that they go through so much more than ftms who have it easy because of the 'tomboy safety net', so I always assumed and expected that mtfs were punished daily by their parents and school officials for gender variance. I imagined  a scenario with a poor sweet mtf girl cowering and weeping in a corner everyday. I imagined all kinds of scenarios that would be pure hell and way worse than my childhood, so I really expected mtfs to have these horror stories of childhood as a budding mtf.

This type of thing was much more prominent for people who have lived longer.  Because I tend to be relatively young, people of my generation tend to be more forgiving about how a person should act.  Also, the type of parents and their outlook on raising children will affect the child's experience.  My dad is actually somewhat feminine in his demeanor, so perhaps this may have affected things.  He wasn't really into enforcing his kids to act "macho".  Had I had one of those dads, then yes, life most likely would have been pure hell. 

As it was, I *did* get punished from time to time (but it wasn't a frequent occurence), but not specifically to "make me into a man", but more because some of my feminine behaviors tended to piss off my dad and viewed from the context of me being a boy, it tended to be more irritating.  Oh and the fact that I cried so easily as a child tended to get to them as well.  They would tell me how my Dad was raised where men are taught not to cry and often he would unintentionally propagate these values down to us because of his own bias.

Well I might not have been in the corner in tears, or even all that sweet, but I had lots of fear. Mostly due to my father, who once told me that he could have me in an orphanage without having to tell mom anything, when I was 6. Real father figure. After being shoved through a wall (literally), and having a a few close calls when he found my clothes, I buried this feeling deep for 10 years. Didn't help that I had a lot of fire in me at the time. Now they both claim they never saw any female traits, no wonder.

But I imagine it can't be all that much better to be FTM growing up even with this 'tom-boy net'. I remember high school vividly, and tom-boys got a lot of grief for being themselves.

Quote from: Melissa on August 07, 2007, 04:45:49 PMOccasionally (and this seems more common for FTMs in my observation) what happens is that the person's behaviors will be far enough over into the gender they identify as that parents will have no choice but to notice the child acts "different". 

There may actually be some truth to that. In general (yeah, I hear the groaning, everybody here hates generalizations), boys are more assertive than girls, so maybe a girl in this situation would just do what's expected of her.

My apologies to all posters in this thread. I didn't mean to make light of anyone's situation. I just had it in my head that there was no way an mtf girl wouldn't be extremely obvious to everyone.

its possible to hide, i built up a male act/persona to hide my true self for fear of punishment... it worked sadly >< but my parents should have bloody known when they bought me 'action man' army dolls that i played weddings with my sisters barbies and them

R

There was a kid my age in the neighborhood when I was like 5 or 6 who dressed up in his mother's clothes, his sister helped dress him up, everybody made fun of him, I remember having mixed emotions wishing I had the nerve to do that but knowing if I did I would get my ass creamed, which I got anyway for other things, until I hit parochial school, I was pretty much myself, a girl, I remember being really content until I went to Catholic school and had to wear shirts and ties while the girls got to wear those cute uniforms and beanies. As soon as I entered school, I began having severe emotional problems, was sent to a shrink, etc but no one ever had a clue as to what my real problem was.

My life was complete hell until I started dating. I was very pretty and gentle so I had lots of girlfriends (finally!) so I lived vicariously through them and later also started dating transwomen and living vicariously through them. (I lived in Baltimore where they were doing SRS at Johns Hopkins) to be continued...

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 08:34:16 PMAs soon as I entered school, I began having severe emotional problems, was sent to a shrink, etc but no one ever had a clue as to what my real problem was.

That sounds more like what I'm driving at. I experienced same. No shrink anywhere could figure out what was wrong with me and some were convinced I had to have endured severe long term physical and sexual abuse. They kept fishing and fishing, thinking I was scared to talk or maybe I had repressed it. I kept telling them they were way off base. And I was pretty pissed and adamant about it, which convinced them all the more I was hiding something.
I'm sorry, but if people keep making horrible insinuations and accusations against your folks, you're going to be insulted and pissed. They were just convinced there had to be something drastic and unspeakable in my past to explain my behaviour. They came up with all these gross, outlandish scenarios that could've resulted in the child seated before them.

That was my point - that even though nobody guessed the child was TS, they knew something was horribly wrong and out of place. I don't want to make light of anyone's situation, but I still can't comprehend how a TS child could possibly be seen as a normal member of their birth sex. Especially those who (unlike Rachael and others) were not repressed and stifled by force and/or deliberacy on the part of the parents.

I have no idea what the school therapists are like now, but I know when I was young and in school they were pretty bad.

Sarah L.

I actually had some great shrinks at Johns Hopkins of all places! But this was in the late 50s early 60s, perhaps had I been there in the 70s they would have figured it out!

(Note, Johns Hopkins is the first ---I believe--- mainstream hospital to perform SRS on a significant basis, at least in the US)

Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 01:47:03 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 08:34:16 PMAs soon as I entered school, I began having severe emotional problems, was sent to a shrink, etc but no one ever had a clue as to what my real problem was.

That sounds more like what I'm driving at. I experienced same. No shrink anywhere could figure out what was wrong with me and some were convinced I had to have endured severe long term physical and sexual abuse. They kept fishing and fishing, thinking I was scared to talk or maybe I had repressed it. I kept telling them they were way off base. And I was pretty pissed and adamant about it, which convinced them all the more I was hiding something.
I'm sorry, but if people keep making horrible insinuations and accusations against your folks, you're going to be insulted and pissed. They were just convinced there had to be something drastic and unspeakable in my past to explain my behaviour. They came up with all these gross, outlandish scenarios that could've resulted in the child seated before them.

That was my point - that even though nobody guessed the child was TS, they knew something was horribly wrong and out of place. I don't want to make light of anyone's situation, but I still can't comprehend how a TS child could possibly be seen as a normal member of their birth sex. Especially those who (unlike Rachael and others) were not repressed and stifled by force and/or deliberacy on the part of the parents.

Ah, ok.  I too saw so many shrinks when I was young due to having problems.  I could never do well in school or socially for that matter.  Eventually they came up with ADD for the diagnosis (which I did and still have), but I think they kind of stopped searching for answers at that point.  Meds kind of helped, but never totally.  I was probably about 11-12 when I knew for certain I was mentally a girl.  I still have one of the psychologist reports from when I was 9 which described many of the feminine traits I exhibited.  If I read it from general context, it doesn't exactly scream "girl", yet it doesn't totally fit with ADD either. However, when I read it in the context of knowing what exactly who I am, everything makes perfect sense on there.  In fact, I gave a copy of the report to my doctor recently because it certainly helps solidify the evidence that the GID has been lifelong.

Also, I had to have a lot of orthodontic work done because my new teeth took up more room than my head was able to accommodate.  As a side note, I remember when I would go to the orthodontist, I would often have to wait outside the office in the morning because I got there early and I would look at the signs of the other medical professionals in the same plaza.  One that really stood out to me was somebody who did electrolysis.  I didn't know what it was at the time, but that just sounded very painful and was scary to me.  Little did I know how painful it actually IS and that I would be having some done when I got older.   I've had all sorts of stuff done growing up and was constantly seeing doctors/shrinks/whatever--certainly more than any of my other siblings. Maybe they really do care more about me than I give them credit for.

Quote from: Melissa on August 09, 2007, 03:30:13 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 01:47:03 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 08:34:16 PMAs soon as I entered school, I began having severe emotional problems, was sent to a shrink, etc but no one ever had a clue as to what my real problem was.

That sounds more like what I'm driving at. I experienced same. No shrink anywhere could figure out what was wrong with me and some were convinced I had to have endured severe long term physical and sexual abuse. They kept fishing and fishing, thinking I was scared to talk or maybe I had repressed it. I kept telling them they were way off base. And I was pretty pissed and adamant about it, which convinced them all the more I was hiding something.
I'm sorry, but if people keep making horrible insinuations and accusations against your folks, you're going to be insulted and pissed. They were just convinced there had to be something drastic and unspeakable in my past to explain my behaviour. They came up with all these gross, outlandish scenarios that could've resulted in the child seated before them.

That was my point - that even though nobody guessed the child was TS, they knew something was horribly wrong and out of place. I don't want to make light of anyone's situation, but I still can't comprehend how a TS child could possibly be seen as a normal member of their birth sex. Especially those who (unlike Rachael and others) were not repressed and stifled by force and/or deliberacy on the part of the parents.

Ah, ok.  I too saw so many shrinks when I was young due to having problems.  I could never do well in school or socially for that matter.  Eventually they came up with ADD for the diagnosis (which I did and still have), but I think they kind of stopped searching for answers at that point.  Meds kind of helped, but never totally.  I was probably about 11-12 when I knew for certain I was mentally a girl.  I still have one of the psychologist reports from when I was 9 which described many of the feminine traits I exhibited.  If I read it from general context, it doesn't exactly scream "girl", yet it doesn't totally fit with ADD either. However, when I read it in the context of knowing what exactly who I am, everything makes perfect sense on there.  In fact, I gave a copy of the report to my doctor recently because it certainly helps solidify the evidence that the GID has been lifelong.

Also, I had to have a lot of orthodontic work done because my new teeth took up more room than my head was able to accommodate.  As a side note, I remember when I would go to the orthodontist, I would often have to wait outside the office in the morning because I got there early and I would look at the signs of the other medical professionals in the same plaza.  One that really stood out to me was somebody who did electrolysis.  I didn't know what it was at the time, but that just sounded very painful and was scary to me.  Little did I know how painful it actually IS and that I would be having some done when I got older.   I've had all sorts of stuff done growing up and was constantly seeing doctors/shrinks/whatever--certainly more than any of my other siblings. Maybe they really do care more about me than I give them credit for.

Yeah, they probably do. Sounds as if they were trying to find out what was wrong. If they hadn't cared, they wouldn't have even noticed everything wasn't hunky dory with you. They probably still care, maybe it's their religion and how they interpret it and what they've been told that's causing them to reject you. Also sounds like they don't understand the condition, if they think you chose this.

Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 04:47:29 PM
They probably still care, maybe it's their religion and how they interpret it and what they've been told that's causing them to reject you. Also sounds like they don't understand the condition, if they think you chose this.

Bingo!  The man is very sharp.

I learned pretty early on that my behavior had to be masculine or else.  I have clear memories of when I was 4 or 5, being yelled at by my mom for the way I would sit, she would tell me that I wasn't a girl, so I shouldn't sit like one.  She doesn't remember this actually happening though, weirdly.  There's a lot about my childhood that I found traumatic, that my mom just can't place happening, or so she says.  But I remember every time where I did something that was stepping outside the lines of where I was supposed to be with regards to Gender, and getting told I wasn't a girl.  Eventually my mom came to accept that I crossdressed at home, which was fine with her so long as I wasn't a girl.  And that lasted from about 4th grade to 7th grade, when I asked her if she would buy me my own clothes, and she informed me that I wasn't a girl, so she shouldn't be wasting money on clothes for me that were for girls.  And that shut me up through a lot of high school, though it was something I was always thinking about.  Then eventually in college, I finally started getting the courage to live my life how I knew I wanted to live, and started to assert that I was female. 

Of course I got the whole "but you never acted female growing up" schtick too.  But I knew it was a lie.  And I knew how much of my habits were born out of repression, rather than expression.  So what if I played the part well, y'know?  I was still acting.

There's so much to sift through when you transition about what is you, and what is society's pressure on you it can be really confusing at times, and I haven't found parents to be the most objective or useful sources for that debate.

I'm still trying to articulate what female means to me.  I don't think it's as easy as the things you do, or how you look.  It's something deeper than that, that does feel inate.  But I don't really know how to explain it's differences to maleness without going to surface things.  I think most GGs would have the same problem though, if you asked them to define femaleness, at least if they were really thinking about it.

ugh, i remember that....

'DONT CROSS YOUR LEGS, YOUR NOT A WOMAN! ONLY WOMEN CAN!'
and the HUGE row when i had my ears pierced: 'only girls can have piercings, you look gay'

R

Quote from: Tak on August 08, 2007, 09:15:54 AM
Eh.

Growing up is going to be a different experience for everybody. My sister has been saying for years that I'm different, but my parents never picked up on it. She said, after I got older, that she figured it must've been because my mother babied me. She didn't, my sister just saw what she wanted to. After I came out to her, she said it all suddenly made sense -- and doesn't doubt in the slightest, unlike my parents who are... just seeing what they want to. My frugality (fix-it myself attitude) they consider a masculine trait. I practice programming in my spare time. I love to drive my car just for the sake of driving it, and I like small, sporty vehicles. I read a lot. I love horror movies. My parents consider all of these masculine things, but it's only because they're looking for them to be masculine. My sister does most of the same things and it's fine, normal girl behavior. When I write poetry, they think I'm trying to be girly -- but I consider it a normal, androgynous thing. I hate sports too, but somehow that's normal boy behavior as well.

People will see what they want to see. They (for the most part) ignore or disregard facts to support their own "truth" to make them sleep better at night... or whatever. That's why congress sucks, but I don't want to talk politics. I hate politics.

I wish I had a sister. My brother is smart, but he's the type who instead of thinking of whats wrong or messed up in the whole view of the world (like I do ALOT), he chooses to go the, "Who cares? Lets jump in the forerunner and hit on girls nonstop like they're shuffled cards with the other boys" thing. I'm like, one of his best friends, but deep connection doesn't seem possible with him to that extent. If I had a sister, especially an older one, I'd have someone to talk with in person.
As for the ENTIRE structure of our government. I'd enjoy seeing it burn and fall. Just for kicks, actually. I'm more scared at what our entire race has problems with. Dumb humans....

As for gender norms. I grew up pretty genderless. I'm competitive, so I'd catch up with the others and try to impress, but other than that, I loved cartoons and LEGO. I ran around naked all the time, and wreaked havoc. I was found in my neighbors house one hiding in their shower. I think I'm like, amazing at sneaking around. But yeah. Hyperactive, obsessed cartoon/nintendo fanthing who was on Ritalin once for it, but that only made me a skinny mofro. The only thing I can imagine being extremely feminine is listening on my moms conversations with random people, and joining in to throw my 2 cents in. They would kind of just ignore me and continue like I didn't join the "adult time."

Both my sisters are more butch than I am (not that I am butch, mind you) One of my sisters, for instance, has only had one manicure in her  entire life, the day she was married.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 13, 2007, 11:16:34 AM
Both my sisters are more butch than I am (not that I am butch, mind you) One of my sisters, for instance, has only had one manicure in her  entire life, the day she was married.

I have yet to ever get a manicure or pedicure done and my nails are rarely painted.  However, I don't consider myself "butch" at all (although I do work on my car from time to time), but I act feminine (because that's just what my personality is) and I love dressing in feminine clothes and wearing makeup and doing my hair (ok, I don't love *doing* it, but I love how it looks ).

I like painting my nails but other than that I wouldn't pay for any 'cures.