A bite-sized compilation - in bullet-form - of some of the intriguing, bizarre, unexpected and perplexing things I'm noticing about my identity in relation to clothing:

1. I don't mind wearing men's clothes again!*.... (*sort-of)
I have gone back to not minding wearing men's clothes....but only if I somehow still look seem to look feminine &/or female whilst wearing them. Whereas I hate wearing overtly male clothes if I actually do look male in them as well. I still like certain aspects of male fashion, such as men's suits, but I shudder if I have to wear one because I look male in the suit. Because my facial and hair presentation is increasingly androgynous (as that's the best I can do pre-HRT), I feel there's less pressure on my clothing choices to make this statement. Ultimately, if I ever happened to look passably female - I'd probably rekindle my love for smart male suits, but only because I'd feel female whilst wearing them.

This is very interesting....as it tells me two things: One, I don't hate male clothes as much as I thought I did - the clothes themselves don't seem to be the issue, its more my form that is the actual issue. Two, it seems that I'm more concerned with looking and feeling feminine than wearing clothes that are female.  Finding and wearing female clothes used to be the thing that was the most important, and therefore I've worried that this was mostly fetish-based and not gender-related. But now it feels like I've recognised that the clothes were a actually a dependency to alleviate the real issue which was (and still is to a fair degree) because I can't attain a feminine figure without them.

I've always hated male clothes as they don't taper in at the waist as much as female clothes can do. I have always felt a natural inclination to wear clothes that are waisted and feminine-figured, as an hourglass shape seems to make me feel comfortable about myself. I feel fat and self-conscious if I feel boxey and am masculine shaped. I had always attributed this to simply hating the look of male clothes from a purely aesthetic point of view. But now I feel that I wouldn't care wearing a boxey-shaped men's jacket as long as my own body had the female shape underneath.

(Its a very similar feeling to my realising that I wouldn't mind getting my hair cut-short IF if it were seen as a girl's short haircut. So, its not the prospect of my having short hair that I don't like, its actually more about the fact that short hair makes me look like a man. Hence, I grow my hair long to compensate for the masculinity. But if I was a girl, I would have it long and short without issue.
I have only just realised the actual triggers for these thought-processes, though, and that's been because of experimentation).

2. This really makes me feel, and reinforces the notion that I am actually quite a "butch" tomboy, as opposed to be the man I thought I was (and sometimes still think I am, lots of internal hang-ups I'm wrestling with).

It feels as if I'm beginning to implode. My identity is now too "defined" for my current form and there's more of a push to break-out of it now. I feel like I'm a chick breaking out of its egg.... well my imagination tells me its similar anyway!

For what it's worth, I'm in the exact same boat. I've always been jealous of androgynous females who can have short hair and wear male clothing and nobody seems to care. They end up looking cute, rather than masculine. 

Quote from: Alexa on February 04, 2014, 11:34:40 AM
For what it's worth, I'm in the exact same boat. I've always been jealous of androgynous females who can have short hair and wear male clothing and nobody seems to care. They end up looking cute, rather than masculine.

Aww, thanks! I'm glad to hear my style get some appreciation.

For reals though. Why be jealous? Make it happen. You both have strongly androgynous bases to work with. HRT works some magic and presto! You are the cute andro chick. Okay, I'm exaggerating a little maybe, but it's not so hard as all that.

I wanted to be the andro female with the edge-y asymmetrical short hair and the stylish Calvin Klein button-up and the sexy jacket and the tongue piercing and the wicked smile. So... now I am. My end goal was crazy different from the norm for trans women, but so what? Different is awesome!

So, ya, just thought I'd try to inject a little optimism. I'm all post-transition and whatnot, so if you got any questions feel free to give me a shout!

I could understand where you are coming from. Your more self conscience of how how you are perceived in the clothes than based on the label of the clothes or style you buy. Do I love boxey clothes? no. Even if their are male, and they have feminine attributes I am find with them. As for wearing mens suits, I hate them with a passion. There isnt nothing wrong with being a butch tom boy either. I kind of think its a challenge to look feminine in mens style clothes.

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 04, 2014, 02:01:27 PM
Aww, thanks! I'm glad to hear my style get some appreciation.

For reals though. Why be jealous? Make it happen. You both have strongly androgynous bases to work with. HRT works some magic and presto! You are the cute andro chick. Okay, I'm exaggerating a little maybe, but it's not so hard as all that.

I wanted to be the andro female with the edge-y asymmetrical short hair and the stylish Calvin Klein button-up and the sexy jacket and the tongue piercing and the wicked smile. So... now I am. My end goal was crazy different from the norm for trans women, but so what? Different is awesome!

So, ya, just thought I'd try to inject a little optimism. I'm all post-transition and whatnot, so if you got any questions feel free to give me a shout!

Haha, I fully intend to. Just gotta deal with the pesky issues of therapy, coming out, etc.
I'm super anxious to get moving with it, as I apparently look way younger than I am. I was getting a haircut the other day, and the person cutting my hair asked how old I was. She was shocked when I said 24, she was going to guess 18. I have this (perhaps irrational) fear that I will suddenly have a "man growth spurt" and loose my youthful androgynous body if I don't get things started soon.

Anyway, yes, androgyny is awesome

Yep,man-growth spurts are very real. And its only when you can observe them when they happen years after puberty that you can appreciate just how much damage it seems to cause. It amazes me that mother nature still feels the need to turn men into these craggy creatures. I'm being turned into a craggy creature, and for no reason at all.

Alexa - yes! I'd love to be able to wear a suit without suddenly looking like a 40 year-old man. There's more flexibility with the female form.

Sarah7 - thank you for the compliment. I'll just have to see what Gatekeeper Command says, and hope that they don't decide to make me wait until I've lost all my hair and I have the requisite male pot-belly before doing anything for me.

Quote from: Alexa on February 04, 2014, 03:11:13 PM
Haha, I fully intend to. Just gotta deal with the pesky issues of therapy, coming out, etc.
I'm super anxious to get moving with it, as I apparently look way younger than I am. I was getting a haircut the other day, and the person cutting my hair asked how old I was. She was shocked when I said 24, she was going to guess 18. I have this (perhaps irrational) fear that I will suddenly have a "man growth spurt" and loose my youthful androgynous body if I don't get things started soon.

Anyway, yes, androgyny is awesome

Fantastic! Glad to hear it.

I found that the actual process, while a bit rough don't get me wrong, is much less painful than the period before you start. Was totally petrified the first time I staggered into a gender therapist's office. Got a lot better quick enough.

Adrogyny is the best. Ever heard of Gwen Haworth?



She did a documentary called "She's a Boy I Knew" about her experience coming out and transitioning as a trans andro lesbian. I met her very early in my transition and it helped a lot with the"oh god I am the only one I must be insane" feels.

Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 04, 2014, 03:54:57 PMI'll just have to see what Gatekeeper Command says, and hope that they don't decide to make me wait until I've lost all my hair and I have the requisite male pot-belly before doing anything for me.

Best of luck!

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 04, 2014, 04:15:34 PM

Adrogyny is the best. Ever heard of Gwen Haworth?

I hadn't, but I'll definitely be checking out the documentary. Thanks!

Thank you for the " best of luck" Alexa! :-)

QuoteShe [Gwen Haworth] did a documentary called "She's a Boy I Knew" about her experience coming out and transitioning as a trans andro lesbian. I met her very early in my transition and it helped a lot with the"oh god I am the only one I must be insane" feels.

Oh my squid! She seems alot like me in many respects! Wear's shirts and ties, makes films :p She seems awesome, going to read about her more.

I was just about to make a post called "Special Snowflakes" about how as adults we're told that we're completely normal and not special in any way. However since exploring my trans* issues, I'm increasingly realising that I don't seem to fully identify with anyone 100%, including nearly every trans* person. Even the therapists think I'm an "unusual case". So it seems I am indeed a very special snowflake afterall, and I expect a good many people are on this site as well, but its hard to know for sure. Anywho, what I'm trying to say is, its refreshing to see an andro and lesbian trans woman. Perhaps, perhaps.... she may be like me. If not, then once again, I'll have to keep searching for someone who's just like me, so I can understand myself.

I love androgyny, too!

BUT its logicically and socially easier and more rewardng to androgynous as a woman, than it is as a man. Therefore in order to fulfil an androgynous identity and feel as comfortable as possible, than initially female is where you need to aim and then be androgynous as that female.

And sadly, that very idea blows people's minds. As even those that transition, just like cis-people, think that there is one specific gender to for everyone - an A to be B journey. Whether you are born with gender and sex aligned and are already at B or whether you have to achieve it medically in order to go from A to B. It seems very difficult to say to people that you need and feel the need to go from A to B in order to arrive at C...

Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 05, 2014, 05:27:20 PM


BUT its logicically and socially easier and more rewardng to androgynous as a woman, than it is as a man. Therefore in order to fulfil an androgynous identity and feel as comfortable as possible, than initially female is where you need to aim and then be androgynous as that female.

And sadly, that very idea blows people's minds. As even those that transition, just like cis-people, think that there is one specific gender to for everyone - an A to be B journey. Whether you are born with gender and sex aligned and are already at B or whether you have to achieve it medically in order to go from A to B. It seems very difficult to say to people that you need and feel the need to go from A to B in order to arrive at C...

I tend to think of it as going from A (male), past B (andro), to C (female), and then back to B. If you go A to B, I feel many will just consider you an androgynous guy and not "serious". Going all the way to C,and then back to B will, in my (limited) view, help solidify that, while presenting androgynous, you are in fact female. Hopefully that makes as much sense in writing as it did in my head.

I also was a bit of a riddle to a previous therapist who didn't really specialize in gender. This was a few years back when I was just beginning to figure myself out. She asked if I had looked into finding any Trans* groups nearby, and I said I didn't feel that I would have much in common with them, as they mostly have a set end point on a relatively set path. I also confused her even more when I said I seemed to identify more with FTM's than MTF's, which also still confuses me to this day.  Ah well.

QuoteI tend to think of it as going from A (male), past B (andro), to C (female), and then back to B. If you go A to B, I feel many will just consider you an androgynous guy and not "serious". Going all the way to C,and then back to B will, in my (limited) view, help solidify that, while presenting androgynous, you are in fact female. Hopefully that makes as much sense in writing as it did in my head.

I also was a bit of a riddle to a previous therapist who didn't really specialize in gender. This was a few years back when I was just beginning to figure myself out. She asked if I had looked into finding any Trans* groups nearby, and I said I didn't feel that I would have much in common with them, as they mostly have a set end point on a relatively set path. I also confused her even more when I said I seemed to identify more with FTM's than MTF's, which also still confuses me to this day.  Ah well.

Hmmmm.....yes, actually the A to C before reverting to B eventually, does make sense physically, as its necessary for a male to have to do that  in order to get enough momentum to override the abundant masculinity. The B part is something FTM's can potentially live with, as they don't have to turn back the clock as it were. Its a more linear process for FTM, physically at least.

But personally, I'm keen to skip the extreme swerve to the female regarding presentation and social alignment, as I feel it would be hugely detrimental to take-on a female identity socially when I look male. I never intend on going out wearing dresses, skirts, etc whilst presenting as female.Only if I happened to seriously pass would I actually do that.

So physically - yes I'd be going from A straight C, but stop-short of absolute C, because I'm non-binary, and like yourself - I find I have much more in common with FTM identities than the "classic" MTF identity.

But socially - Definitely A - B with lots and lots of C and a bit of A. But not strictly C or A. If I happened to suddenly become more binary female, and passed physically, then I'm sure C would be the final, exclusive, destination.

With regard to MTFs being close to FTMs - the reason why nobody undertsand it, and not even ourselves, is because of the fact that we're all still conditioned to thinking of women as women in the traditional sense. The idea of transitioning to the female form but appearing purposely as andro seems ridiculous as we haven't quite gotten over the age-old idea that a woman is 100% feminine.  Its a simple concept to grasp - cis-women can have an andro identity, and so can a transexual woman. However, the transexual woman has the extra hurdle in that she has to become an actual woman first, before she can express the andro part of that female identity.

Its an extension of the circular railway-line that is the gender spectrum. However this line and its new station "Andro" is so new, that no-one recognises that it can legitimately exist, yet. However, those that do know it exist see its perceived proximity to the masculine male station at the opposite end of the track. So instead of letting you go round the whole track from male to andro-female , they simply push you further back to the masculine station, and say "why bother being female if you aren't going to be like a traditional woman? Why not just stay male?"

Fun fun fun indeed! Personally, I don't think the human race will ever get over these issues. Not whilst there's still natural procreation, straight males and straight females in the world. Gender plasticity just isn't compatible with the human need to baby-make.