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Stunted growth after switching Anti-Androgen?

Started by teeg, February 02, 2014, 12:26:13 PM

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930310

HRT on and off since January 20, 2014
Diagnosed with GD: March 2018

https://www.youtube.com/user/930310
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Jennygirl

Quote from: 930310 on February 06, 2014, 12:17:24 PM
Any studies/evidence?

There is some discussion about a study done in the UK here:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=154404.0

The study mostly just points out that women who do not take spiro are less likely to have breast augmentation.
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KayXo

#22
I read the full study which I have access to and the problem with it is that spironolactone doses are not mentioned. Say was used...well, obviously, results weren't good! What if doses of  had been used? Spiro is a weaker anti-androgen and perhaps higher doses are as effective as say,  Androcur or analogues.

I will reread, do more research re: this study because some of the statements intrigue me...namely, this one...

"This is consistent with studies on puberty induction in natal girls in whom rapid estrogen exposure was found to lead to premature breast bud fusion and poor breast development (8). Those transwomen who self-medicate with estrogen may be taking too large a dose at initiation to promote appropriate subsequent breast growth, resulting in a poorer final breast outcome."

And

"The use of spironolactone as an antiandrogen seemed also to be associated with an increased incidence of breast augmentation in transwomen. The other, more specific antiandrogens and GnRH analogs were not. Spironolactone is a mineralocorticoid receptor antagonist that acts as an androgen receptor partial antagonist as well as an estrogen receptor agonist. As such, in addition to blocking the androgen receptor (which is its primary purpose in this situation), it also has a significant estrogenic action at the
doses used in transwomen. One can postulate that this could lead to an excessive estrogenic action and consequent poorer breast outcome by the same mechanism as that seen when patients self-medicate with estrogens."

First I hear of premature fusion due to high dose of estrogen at the onset and of Spiro being estrogenic and exerting estrogenic action at the estrogen receptor. I do know however that Spiro increases conversion of androgen to estrogen.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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KayXo

Regarding Spironolactone having estrogenic activity, this is what another study states, contrary to the above study

CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63

Pharmacology of estrogens and progestogens: influence of different routes of administration
H. Kuhl
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, J. W. Goethe University of Frankfurt, Germany


"The chemical structure of drospirenone, which is a derivative of 17a-spirolactone, is similar to that of the aldosterone antagonist spironolactone"

"The antiandrogenic activity of drospirenone is about 30% of that of CPA. It has no estrogenic and no appreciable glucocorticoid activity"

"Besides the natural progesterone, four types of orally active, synthetic progestins are available: the progesterone derivatives, 19-norprogesterone derivatives (Figure 9), 19-nortestosterone derivatives and the spirolactone derivative drospirenone (Figure 10). They all exert progestogenic and – in some tissues - antiestrogenic activities, but differ largely in their hormonal pattern."

Experimental and Clinical Psychopharmacology Copyright 2007 by the American Psychological Association
2007, Vol. 15, No. 5, 427–444

Progesterone: Review of Safety for Clinical Studies


"Others that are derived from progesterone (17 hydroxyprogesterone derivatives), hydroxyprogesterone (19 norprogesterone derivatives), or spironolactone (drospirenone) have been found to exert estrogenic, glucocorticoid, and mineralocorticoid actions (Pluchino et al., 2006)."

This study, on the other hand agrees with the study from the UK.

I need to read some more...


I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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teeg

Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on February 06, 2014, 11:59:31 AM
spiro can cause breast bud fusing and limit breast growth too.
Quote from: Jennygirl on February 06, 2014, 04:01:32 PM
There is some discussion about a study done in the UK here:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=154404.0

The study mostly just points out that women who do not take spiro are less likely to have breast augmentation.
Are these symptoms reversible? I took Spironolactone for a few months. This may be something related to why I seem to have experienced stunted progress.

Also, might Cyproterone have similar effects to the studies above?
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KayXo

According to the study, there weren't more people in the cyproterone acetate group having BA vs not having it. I personally don't like cyproterone acetate because it has many undesirable side-effects and it also increases cardiovascular risk (thrombosis, see Diane-35).

Here are a few excerpts from the study re:Cypro

"It is interesting that the other antiandrogens, cyproterone acetate and finasteride, do not appear to be used more frequently in those requiring breast augmentation compared with controls"

"Cyproterone acetate use is statistically more likely to cause depression than the other antiandrogen types used in this study. These results are consistent with previous studies using cyproterone acetate to treat hirsutism (11–13). It is, however, the first time this has been reported in transwomen. The incidence of depression was much lower in those using GnRH analogs, which is consistent with the findings of Dittrich et al. in 2005 (14), who found that depression was not a significant problem in transwomen treated with GnRH analogs."

"Because cyproterone acetate was associated with an increased incidence of depression compared with GnRH analogs, it could be argued that GnRH analogs are better for testosterone reduction."

"Of the antiandrogens studied, only cyproterone acetate was significantly associated with depression (8.3%, P  0.05) (see Table 4)."

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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KayXo

#26
More on Spiro, and how it increases estrogen...

From Drug-induced gynecomastia: an evidence-based review
September 2012, Vol. 11, No. 5 , Pages 779-795 (doi:10.1517/14740338.2012.712109)

"Spironolactone acts as an anti-androgen by binding to the androgen receptors; lowers circulating testosterone by increasing its metabolic clearance and preventing a compensatory rise in testicular androgen synthesis; displaces estrogen from sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and increases the peripheral conversion of testosterone to estrogen leading to elevated estradiol [12]. Estradiol levels decrease and testosterone increase significantly 3 – 6 months after stopping spironolactone [12]."

From J Urol (Paris). 1981;87(9):635-8.
[The influence of spironolactone on the concentration of gonadotrophins and gonadal hormones in prostatic hypertrophy (author's transl)].

"The authors examined the influence of spironolactone on the concentration of testosterone, 5 alpha - dihydrotestosterone (DHT), progesterone, oestradiol (E2), LH, and FSH in 47 patients with prostatic hypertrophy, aged from 60 to 80 years. The control group consisted of 58 men of the same age. Spironolactone was prescribed at a dose of per day for three months. There was a considerable fall in the concentration of testosterone and of DHT and, at the same time, an increase in the concentration of progesterone, E2 and LH."





DO NOT POST DOSAGES
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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kira21 ♡♡♡

Quote from: teeg on February 06, 2014, 08:19:31 PM
Are these symptoms reversible? I took Spironolactone for a few months. This may be something related to why I seem to have experienced stunted progress.

Also, might Cyproterone have similar effects to the studies above?

No, the fusing is non-reversible. Depending on the amount of breast tissue that you developed before this would be negligible (which will not be much in a few months but it depends on how much a 'few' is exactly).

teeg

All this talk of breast bud fusion and such has made me a bit nervous of Anti-Androgens...

When I first started HRT I was only on E and Finasteride, no AA, and I seemed to do great on that...

Can E block T by itself somewhat?
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Jennygirl

Quote from: teeg on February 07, 2014, 03:39:21 PM
All this talk of breast bud fusion and such has made me a bit nervous of Anti-Androgens...

When I first started HRT I was only on E and Finasteride, no AA, and I seemed to do great on that...

Can E block T by itself somewhat?

Yes and I volunteer myself as living proof ;)
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Jenna Marie

Yes, E blocks T to some degree (what degree varies by person). In the olden days the standard regimen was in fact estrogen only.

I'm another living proof. :) Never took anything but low dose estrogen, and outgrowing my 42DDD bras at the 4-year mark on HRT.
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teeg

Quote from: Jennygirl on February 08, 2014, 05:15:57 PM
Yes and I volunteer myself as living proof ;)
Thanks for the confirmation :)

I don't think it's allowed to discuss exact doses and rightly so, but could you shed some light on perhaps some details of your HRT regimen like the medications and such if you'd feel comfortable?

I have an appointment coming up in a couple weeks with my Endo and any information could help given I'm in a small town...
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teeg

Quote from: Jenna Marie on February 08, 2014, 08:29:29 PM
Yes, E blocks T to some degree (what degree varies by person). In the olden days the standard regimen was in fact estrogen only.

I'm another living proof. :) Never took anything but low dose estrogen, and outgrowing my 42DDD bras at the 4-year mark on HRT.
Wow, grats on the progress!  :D

Might you also be able to give a little information about which type of estrogen? Tablet form, injections, etc.?
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Jenna Marie

Teeg : Patches, and a cis-menopausal-level dose. I'm not sure it'll help you much; even my endocrinologist was startled by the results relative to the dose. (Though she does swear by patches?) I can at least attest that I'm also not the only patient my endo has had who was able to get T levels down to the female range on E only.
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Jennygirl

Quote from: teeg on February 08, 2014, 08:47:01 PM
Thanks for the confirmation :)

I don't think it's allowed to discuss exact doses and rightly so, but could you shed some light on perhaps some details of your HRT regimen like the medications and such if you'd feel comfortable?

I have an appointment coming up in a couple weeks with my Endo and any information could help given I'm in a small town...

I am on kind of a megadose. A dozen E pellets (one would be equal to cis dose) and a single progesterone pellet every 3 months. There are a few other members here who swear by pellets too.

It's an expensive route if you still have the t makers and want to feminize quickly, but after SRS then it's pretty comparable to the other methods because dosage can be reduced so much. After SRS I will probably drop down to two or three E pellets and one P pellet. My wallet is looking forward to that... big time ;)

Pellets are extremely effective for reducing T regardless of the dose, really. The steady release is what makes that possible with such small amounts of the feminizing hormones (especially cross compared with oral). T doesn't stand a chance with pellets.
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Bardoux

Quote from: Jennygirl on February 09, 2014, 05:44:59 AM
I am on kind of a megadose. A dozen E pellets (one would be equal to cis dose) and a single progesterone pellet every 3 months. There are a few other members here who swear by pellets too.

It's an expensive route if you still have the t makers and want to feminize quickly, but after SRS then it's pretty comparable to the other methods because dosage can be reduced so much. After SRS I will probably drop down to two or three E pellets and one P pellet. My wallet is looking forward to that... big time ;)

Pellets are extremely effective for reducing T regardless of the dose, really. The steady release is what makes that possible with such small amounts of the feminizing hormones (especially cross compared with oral). T doesn't stand a chance with pellets.

Yeah i completely agree, switching to pellets from patches was fantastic! I see the same wonderful Endocrinologist as Jenny and highly, highly recommend him, lovely guy and so knowledgeable.

teeg

Quote from: Bardoux on February 09, 2014, 07:13:54 AM
I see the same wonderful Endocrinologist as Jenny and highly, highly recommend him, lovely guy and so knowledgeable.
Thanks for the information from both of you. Who might that be? I could try to coordinate some sort of consultation between him and my Endocrinologist...
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Jennygirl

Dr. John O'Dea, he has offices in northern California and Marina Del Rey. That's a great idea!
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Jamie D

Quote from: teeg on February 04, 2014, 08:15:47 PM
My original Endocrinologist prescribed me Finasteride as a mild anti-androgen to, "clean up what Estrogen didn't block naturally". I may be mistaken, but I remember hearing from somewhere that Finasteride (and Dutasteride) directly blocks DHT, and produces an enzyme that converts T to E, or stops the conversion of E to T? I thought this might mean the body would then have, "its own" estrogen that perhaps it might like better. Unfortunately I never had hormone levels checked during this time, but perhaps when I was only on E and Fin my body was exposed to more of my own E, where on Spiro and Cypro they remove the T that converts to my body's E? Also, when I was on E, Finasteride, and Spiro, my E levels were significantly higher than with the same dose of E and Spiro with no Finasteride. Perhaps this is due to that conversion making more E?

There exists no mechanism to convert E to T in the human body.

T will convert to E through aromatization.  This is the process that produces the fully feminine physique in CAIS women.
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teeg

Quote from: Jennygirl on February 09, 2014, 02:48:26 PM
Dr. John O'Dea, he has offices in northern California and Marina Del Rey. That's a great idea!
Thanks for that! :)

I contacted his office, and although I'm at the opposite end of the country, it seems like we'll be able to set something up. Information on his website really makes sense about HRT.

However, I looked at reviews for his practice online and it seems pretty mixed... mostly either greatly negative or greatly positive... any thoughts?
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