so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.

should be read as:

so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.

should be read as:

so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.

This person doesn't act, dress or behave like a woman, that's the part that is really mind boggling.

only they dont present as female in the slightest. dont call me closed minded please.

R

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.

should be read as:

so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.

I lawled.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 07:19:23 PM

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.

should be read as:

so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.

This person doesn't act, dress or behave like a woman, that's the part that is really mind boggling.

Candi was making the irony of that statement known, not making an assessment on the person you described.

My honest assessment with the little I know? This person you described is probably either a man trying to infiltrate mtf transsexual groups for his own reasons,

or

this is an mtf transsexual that is so severely closeted in regular day to day life that she needs to keep a veneer of maleness over her to keep up the facade with her regular friends. And only feels safe to reveal her womanhood for you folks.

If the former, then by all means your friends should be suspicious and approach him with caution.

If the latter your friends should be ashamed of themselves for making her courage even more reduced to finally come out.

Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:42:30 PM

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.

should be read as:

so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.

I lawled.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 07:19:23 PM

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 08, 2007, 06:27:45 PM
so this person presents male, yet wants to be in female only spaces? sorry, no can do. thats just wrong.

should be read as:

so this person born as a genetic male, yet wants to act/dress/behave/be treated as a female in society? sorry, no can do. (i'm close minded). that's just wrong.

This person doesn't act, dress or behave like a woman, that's the part that is really mind boggling.

Candi was making the irony of that statement known, not making an assessment on the person you described.

My honest assessment with the little I know? This person you described is probably either a man trying to infiltrate mtf transsexual groups for his own reasons,

or

this is an mtf transsexual that is so severely closeted in regular day to day life that she needs to keep a veneer of maleness over her to keep up the facade with her regular friends. And only feels safe to reveal her womanhood for you folks.

If the former, then by all means your friends should be suspicious and approach him with caution.

If the latter your friends should be ashamed of themselves for making her courage even more reduced to finally come out.

I didn't say anything about mtf transseual groups, interesting that you would make that assumption. For the record, I haven't attended any MtF groups in a couple years. I mentioned women only spaces. I see that you finally have come around to the pretty obvious fact that a person so described would need intervention. I really have no idea where this person is coming from. Every human being desrves compassion and respect, as a completely transition and adapted post-op woman, I will reach out to this person should the opportunity arise.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 11:35:52 PM
I didn't say anything about mtf transseual groups, interesting that you would make that assumption.

I thought you did actually. So more a misunderstanding then an assumption. Nothing interesting about it.

Quote
For the record, I haven't attended any MtF groups in a couple years. I mentioned women only spaces.

Ah, I see. This doesn't dissuade my earlier point though.

Quote
I see that you finally have come around to the pretty obvious fact that a person so described would need intervention.

Odd, I never recalled agreeing with you.

In fact I specifically mentioned two possible causes to this behavior, and neither requires intervention, although one does require wariness.

1: an mtf transsexual that is so severely closeted in regular day to day life that she needs to keep a veneer of maleness over her to keep up the facade with her regular friends, but feels safe with your group.

2: a male trying to infiltrate (whether its mtf groups or just gg groups is irrelevant)

Only option 2 requires the wariness. Option one is really more up to the transsexual herself to figure out. So where am I stating that this person obviously needs intervention?

Quote
I really have no idea where this person is coming from.

You could attempt to find out, as opposed to letting your friends label her or him as creepy or dangerous and labeling her or him as loopy or crazy yourself. I certainly would try to find out just due to simple curiosity.

Quote
Every human being desrves compassion and respect, as a completely transition and adapted post-op woman, I will reach out to this person should the opportunity arise.

I'm glad.

I smell a fairy with a lock (and a key) coming soon to a theater thread near you. 



tink

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 11:39:38 AM
Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.

I am not  judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending. It defies logic.

This has been a very difficult, yet illuminating thread.  It's also very hard to accuse anyone here of being judgmental or bigoted, since those are very loaded terms for a group that is too often the victims of our cultural discrimination and prejudice.

That said, I can see a very plausible argument for people (esp in early or mid transition) where it simply isn't a choice but to maintain a beard (because of family, cultural, or religious reasons), yet desperately wanting to be something different.  So yes, I *can* see the possibility of such a seeming dichotomy. 

Yet, I suspect that isn't the case; it might simply be a gender-bending/in your face statement about our cultural roles/assumptions/etc.  Personally, I can get behind that myself, as I've been a cultural gender-bender for 30+ years.  Either way, the bottom line is simply, that without asking, I don't know why this person has made this choice!

That aside, all of these specific arguments pale beside the fundamental question of what IS acceptance, and where do we each draw those boundaries?

I see only one consistent aspect of this thread; that being, are we willing to accept a position/action that isn't popular, or even (to many of us, myself included) makes sense? 

We each can only make our own decisions, either privately or publicly, as to just how "open" we are to accepting the decisions of others.  That makes no one either wrong or right, but merely human.

For myself, in order to be true to my own fundamental believes, I have to err on the side of acceptance/questioning... i.e., to accept, (just as I would want others to accept my decisions).  If needed,  I can inquire as to why the person chose an option I don't understand or question.

Meaning no offence to anyone - bearded or not - and accepting of the bearded ones or not. 

Scott

Even in The Netherlands where society is very tolerant, transwomen with beards wouldn't be welcome in women only spaces.

Quote from: Sophia on August 09, 2007, 01:37:58 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 08, 2007, 11:35:52 PM
I didn't say anything about mtf transseual groups, interesting that you would make that assumption.

I thought you did actually. So more a misunderstanding then an assumption. Nothing interesting about it.

Quote
For the record, I haven't attended any MtF groups in a couple years. I mentioned women only spaces.

Ah, I see. This doesn't dissuade my earlier point though.

Quote
I see that you finally have come around to the pretty obvious fact that a person so described would need intervention.

Odd, I never recalled agreeing with you.

In fact I specifically mentioned two possible causes to this behavior, and neither requires intervention, although one does require wariness.

1: an mtf transsexual that is so severely closeted in regular day to day life that she needs to keep a veneer of maleness over her to keep up the facade with her regular friends, but feels safe with your group.

2: a male trying to infiltrate (whether its mtf groups or just gg groups is irrelevant)

Only option 2 requires the wariness. Option one is really more up to the transsexual herself to figure out. So where am I stating that this person obviously needs intervention?

Quote
I really have no idea where this person is coming from.

You could attempt to find out, as opposed to letting your friends label her or him as creepy or dangerous and labeling her or him as loopy or crazy yourself. I certainly would try to find out just due to simple curiosity.

Quote
Every human being desrves compassion and respect, as a completely transition and adapted post-op woman, I will reach out to this person should the opportunity arise.

I'm glad.

That you incorrectly assumed that I was talking about MTF groups says something about your perspective, like it or not. You stated that this person needs help, you said that in the context of thinking that she was attempting to infiltrate MTF groups and that others in the group should help her.

You seem to think that I can control how other people feel about this person. You should learn that that is a foolhardy mission. As far as invading this person's space just to satisfy my own curiosity, as much as I would like to do that, that would be the wrong thing to do, right off the bat. It would be rude.

This may sound elitist but I think there are two completely different perspectives here. One, from someone who is just starting out on the journey and the other, from someone who has completed it.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 09:46:00 AM
That you incorrectly assumed that I was talking about MTF groups says something about your perspective, like it or not.

A blip in my memory says something about my perspective? I'd probably think it would say that I misunderstand people's meaning sometimes. But perhaps you felt the need to assume that I would purposely try to make wild guesses about the situation based on assumptions.

Had I not completely and truly thought you had written that your group was a group of MTF transsexuals I wouldn't of made any such mention. Now that the more silly part of this conversation is past and the mistake corrected, we can move on to the real gist of this discussion.

Quote
You stated that this person needs help, you said that in the context of thinking that she was attempting to infiltrate MTF groups and that others in the group should help her.

If a person is attempting to infiltrate any group, be it MTF, all female, ninjas, Mormons or freemasons then one should use wariness when dealing with them because their motivations may be dangerous or harmful.

Could you please find and reference the post in which I said that they definitely required help or intervention? I gave you two options for what could be happening. One required you to be on guard. The other did not. I gave no other suggestions then that.

Quote
You seem to think that I can control how other people feel about this person. You should learn that that is a foolhardy mission.

You can't obviously. However you can make your opinion known if the group is violating your own personal morals. Its not the easiest path and it does require a certain level of social courage to do. However it is the right path and certainly has aided me in being able be at peace with myself.

Call me foolhardy or idealistic, but I do not bend my morals for anyone. Not even the fear of social anger from a group of friends.

Quote
  As far as invading this person's space just to satisfy my own curiosity, as much as I would like to do that, that would be the wrong thing to do, right off the bat. It would be rude.

Because of course, it isn't rude to talk behind a person's back.

And:

It depends on how you do it actually. Anyone with the slightest amount of social knowledge will be ready to accept the fact that beards on a woman are not readily accepted and there will be resistance and at best curiosity from other people.

If the woman in question is not ready for friendly inquiries into something of major social impact that they are doing purposefully, then they do need to be committed for endangering their mental state in that way.

And really, you could just be dealing with an iconoclast too. Someone that enjoys violating social norms to see reactions and test social waters. Your inquiry would not be taken as rude by such a person, but likely accepted with gratitude and glee.

Quote
This may sound elitist but I think there are two completely different perspectives here. One, from someone who is just starting out on the journey and the other, from someone who has completed it.

It does sound elitist. Which is probably why I consider it so easy to disregard.

I do not intend to offend you with this but its necessary to be blunt. The claim to authority on social operations as a woman simply because you've been in the running as a woman longer really holds no water with me. Experience is only as good as the lessons learned from it. And unless I feel confident you not only learned the right lessons from your experience but also learned the dynamics behind the things that shaped your experiences I'm unlikely to consider you an authority on anything.

And even further, an authority on a subject is not always right and an inexperienced opinion is not always wrong in comparison. To assume otherwise is the height of folly.

i thought this person was tying to get into womens only spaces, not m2f groups?
being so externally obviously male, they should use presentation apropriate spaces, i mean, even before i went ft, i still used the mens room if i was presenting androgynously, and even then ANDROGYNEOUS, not sporting a santa chin wig...
this person presents male, and wishes to use things like the ladies room, changing room, and thats just not workable as they are  not even trying to present as female, regardless of the beard.

i think thier slightly wobbly in the grey stuff dept...

R

Quote from: Rachael on August 09, 2007, 04:01:54 PM
i thought this person was tying to get into womens only spaces, not m2f groups?

I misread.

Quote
being so externally obviously male, they should use presentation apropriate spaces, i mean, even before i went ft, i still used the mens room if i was presenting androgynously, and even then ANDROGYNEOUS, not sporting a santa chin wig...
this person presents male, and wishes to use things like the ladies room, changing room, and thats just not workable as they are  not even trying to present as female, regardless of the beard.

It certainly would be upsetting to people for them not to. If they're an iconoclast though, then that's exactly why they're doing it.

Quote
i think thier slightly wobbly in the grey stuff dept...

Or have a really awesome (and somewhat odd) sense of humor.

LOL How much lack of wisdom does it take to disregard the views of someone who has achieved all of that which that person hopes to achieve?

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 04:31:51 PM
LOL How much lack of wisdom does it take to disregard the views of someone who has achieved all of that which that person hopes to achieve?

Not as much of a lack of wisdom as it takes to assume that experience makes one the ultimate authority even if one hasn't learned the right things from it.

how do you mean mellissa? do they not listen to you or something?

R

Quote from: Sophia on August 09, 2007, 04:33:29 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 04:31:51 PM
LOL How much lack of wisdom does it take to disregard the views of someone who has achieved all of that which that person hopes to achieve?

Not as much of a lack of wisdom as it takes to assume that experience makes one the ultimate authority...

[/quote]

Again, you are attributing things to me that I never said.

Quoteif one hasn't learned the right things from it.

LOL now who were you saying is claiming to be the ultimate authority?

Last night this person that I know who goes by the name of Susan wants to be considered female and yet this person has scruffy, dirty beard. Also has the longest ear hairs(ewwwwww) I have ever seen. Says that the company will let them dress in a dress and comments on the blue dress that she wants to wear. She was saying this in front of about 10 people, all part of the GLBT. I try not to say anything as this really disgusts me. I feel really bad that I have this prejudice, but I can't help it. This person does not try to make any statement of feminity at all. I understand there are women who do have some facial hair and most try to take care of it. Shaving equipment does not cost that much. She just really grossed me out when talking about this blue dress, I almost went blind in my mind.
I have met some really hard looking trans people and I get along with them just fine. They try to look the gender that they are on the inside.
I just had to vent a little. Sorry for my bigotry here.
Sheila

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 04:39:21 PM
Again, you are attributing things to me that I never said.

Odd, I seem to recall you claiming that your experience made you right after failing to prove yourself right using logic and reasoning. Perhaps I misunderstood you and you weren't claiming that your experience made you correct? If so, why were you so convinced that you were right and I was wrong about the situation and why did you reference your experience?

Clarity is very important when communicating in text.

Quote

Quoteif one hasn't learned the right things from it.

LOL now who were you saying is claiming to be the ultimate authority?

I never said what those were you know. Probably because I'm not an authority on them.



Now who's putting things in who's mouth?

'It's getting hot in here, so take off all your clothes
I am getting so hot, I'm gonna take my clooothes off'

But no really, it is getting heated in here. Thread locked, AC turned up. May be unlocked once it cools down in here.