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Government, what's the point?

Started by LearnedHand, November 11, 2013, 11:16:27 PM

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DriftingCrow

This post is only asking people who believe in "small government".

For people who want small government, what's the point of having a government?

I don't really consider myself a supporter of "big government", but I'd probably be labeled as so by some. I kind of think part of the purpose of having a government is to protect the citizens by outside and internal threats, discrimination, etc. A poster recently said (and I now other people off of Susan's say the same) that anti-discrimination laws are big government and interferes with personal liberties (other poster, sorry if I got what you were saying wrong). I have some friends who work in housing discrimination and the discrimination in housing is a huge problem (they go out and pretend to be interested in an apartment and then report what the landlord said -- it's not uncommon that the non-minorities get better rental rates while the minorities are told the apartment has a higher rent. When discrimination is evident, the landlord is brought to the housing court); it's hard to just shop around when you either don't know you're being discriminated against or there's no where else to go. Freedom of contract is something that I support, but it's hard when there's unequal bargaining power and in my view the government should step in to protect the needy to allow them to bargain equally.

I was also a little surprised by Ron Paul back when he was running in the primary who said that the victims of flooding in Vermont shouldn't be helped by the government. I understand FEMA is expensive, but it seems kind of harsh to just say "those people up on the mountains, it's their own fault for not having flood insurance" (<--obviously, not a direct quote from Paul). I also believe Paul made statements like this concerning other natural disasters.

If we don't help people who get struck by a natural disaster, protect those who are vulnerable, then what does government do? Just. . . upkeep infrastructure?


Well, those are just a few things I am kind of confused on, and I would appreciate it if some of our more conservative members could explain the philosophy to me. No one really explained this political philosophy to me well, and I don't really know much Republicans I could ask (most Republicans I know are mainly Republican over social issues, like being against gay marriage, abortion, and such, rather than the non-social issues).

I'd also appreciate it if more liberal members would respect the opinions of those who answer this thread, I like learning from others and attacking their point of view won't be very helpful to anyone. This is basically just a question for them to answer so I can be better informed, and I do fear this will turn nasty if others don't let them explain their point of view. I already know the liberal philosophy.

ਮਨਿ ਜੀਤੈ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤੁ
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amZo

Without some form of government we'd have anarchy, I certainly believe we should have a reasonable set of laws which enforce the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.  Currently, we simply can't afford the size of government we currently have. I believe in efficient and a non-coercive government. That seems like an obvious desire but it's not apparently.




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Shantel

Not like this one!
This is exactly what I predicted would take place following the collapse of the Soviet Union and the emergence of the US as the world's sole superpower! Invariably it will turn the eyes of it's spy apparatus internally on it's own citizens using every government asset and commence with aggressive acts of citizen oppression. Watch the video, this is just the beginning!

http://thecitizenscolumn.com/the-people-fight-back/2014/2/7/must-watch-this-womans-congressional-testimony-is-going-viral
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Jamie D

"Small government" not only means a limited and unobtrusive Federal government, it means the governance works best when it is closest to the people.

The Framers of the Constitution and the Founders of the country did not want a "national" government.  They provide the Federal ("general") government with limited and enumerated powers.  Never in the the debates of the Philadelphia Convention of 1787, and the debates in the individual States during the ratification process, did the idea of an all-powerful, intrusive, and oppressive government gain traction - it was what they wanted to avoid!

James Madison, I think, stated it best when he wrote:

The interest of the man, must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.  - Federalist #51

Our Federal government is out of control.
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Jamie D

Quote from: LearnedHand on November 11, 2013, 11:16:27 PM

I was also a little surprised by Ron Paul back when he was running in the primary who said that the victims of flooding in Vermont shouldn't be helped by the government. I understand FEMA is expensive, but it seems kind of harsh to just say "those people up on the mountains, it's their own fault for not having flood insurance" (<--obviously, not a direct quote from Paul). I also believe Paul made statements like this concerning other natural disasters.

If we don't help people who get struck by a natural disaster, protect those who are vulnerable, then what does government do? Just. . . upkeep infrastructure?

Let me ask you this ... What made flooding in Vermont a federal issue?  Why is it not a state issue, or an issue for those counties that were flooded?
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michelle

#5
My feeling has always been that the right wing conservatives during the time when communism was a viable governmental philosophy were afraid that the working classes and poor classes in the United States would turn to socialism or to the Communist version of socialism.   The ones that gave support to Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security,  workman's compensation, unemployment insurance, welfare,  food stamps, and other social programs were their way of buying off the working poor in our country.   When the Iron Curtin came down, the Soviet Union  fell apart,   the Chinese communists integrated a form of capitalism and free market into their communist system,  the right wing no longer felt that it was time to dismantle all of the social programs and other protections for the working class because the working class could not longer turn to the Communists.   

This is not to say that the communist system was any bargain.   The same greedy individuals under the Communist system who ran the government owned the industries that employed the workers.   This created entire nations that were in fact "company towns" where every means of getting your basic life's needs including your political rights and freedoms were under control of one all powerful entity.    The same gigantic bureaucracy ran the schools and told  you what and how to think, built your homes, supplied your food and drink.   The reason the right wing hated the Communists was that the means of gaining wealth and owning property were taken away from individuals and now owned by the government.    Individuals could no longer corner most of their communities wealth under communism,  individuals to gain wealth would have to become members of the communist party which was kind of an atheistic religion, then work their way up through the power system of the party to a point where the group they belonged to could siphon of a good portion of the nations wealth under the guise of their living a life of luxury allowed them to be better leaders and make the best decisions for the country. 

Basically19th century capitalism and 19th century communism were both oppressive systems that economically enslaved the majority of the individuals in their countries under sweat shop conditions.   The right wing conservatives today want to return to the conditions of 19th century capitalism where governments protected the wealthy few industrialists and workers had few if any economic rights and labor was paid pennies a day,  just like in many third world nations today which are just beginning to industrialize.  This is kinda the ideal industrial factories in China so beloved by a past Republican Presidential candidate,  who lost the 2012 Presidential election.

In the United States we have a government of, by, and for the people the purpose of which is to protect the life, liberty, and happiness of every individual without any exceptions living in the United States and its commonwealths, and territories.   This means that the government exists for the 100% and not just for the 1%. 

The United States is the Rainbow Coalition in the totality of everything that is us.
Be true to yourself.  The future will reveal itself in its own due time.    Find the calm at the heart of the storm.    I own my womanhood.

I am a 69-year-old transsexual school teacher grandma & lady.   Ethnically I am half Irish  and half Scandinavian.   I can be a real bitch or quite loving and caring.  I have never taken any hormones or had surgery, I am out 24/7/365.
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michelle

I don't believe that our government is out of control.   The Articles of the Confederation did not work.  The whole argument of which activities could be accomplished by the Federal Government, which by the State governments, and which by individuals themselves has been debated from the very moment that George Washington became President.  When the Federal Government built its first national highway which was called the Cumberland Highway, it was hotly debated whether the Federal Government had the right to build this highway or not.   If the Supreme Court would have declared that building this highway was unconstitutional we would not have the Interstate Highway system in our country today.   There would be no Federal Highway system.   

Without FEMA only the very rich states would be able to rebuild themselves after a massive natural disaster.    Without our Federal Government certain states could have cornered all of the wealth in the nation, and we would have a few pockets extreme wealth in our country surrounded by large areas of extreme poverty like we find existing in many third world countries today.   Yes, there are many extreme areas of poverty in the United States today which will be found on isolated corners of Native American Reservations, run down areas of our cities, in the Ozarks, the Appalachian Mountains,  areas of our commonwealths, and some of our island territories.   Their are also many large pockets of wealth scattered throughout the United States.   

Ron Paul is extremely mistaken in his attitudes and political views.  He favors the right of the rich white males to control the economic and social institutions within our country and for them to set the standards by which the rest of us will live.   He is against laws like ENDA because it would provide legal authority protecting the civil rights of  the GLBTQ community which as citizens of the United States we already have.   The problem is that when GLBTQ rights are infringed upon by bigoted individuals in our communities members of the GLBTQ community have no legal power  to protect our rights.   The Courts say that they do not have the legal authority to protect our rights.   Their hands are tied.   

As far as the problem of having an all intrusive federal government that can snoop on us and threaten our freedoms well at least we can elect them and they can only hold office until the next election.    Does not Google or AT&T or the Credit bureau system also have the power to snoop on our lives.   When we need a loan or apply for a job, are not private company employers able to look us up on Facebook,  contact the credit bureaus, run a criminal background check upon us, and use this information to either hire us or give us a loan, or not hire us or deny us a loan.    We have no power over the decisions of these private companies except the protection we are given by our local, state, and federal governments' laws and regulations.   

Look at West Virginia where they had a chemical spill into one of their rivers that supplied the water for many of the communities on its banks in more than one state.   The storage of these chemicals was not regulated sufficiently by any local, state, or federal agency.   None of these agencies has any idea of how harmful these chemicals even are because they were not covered as harmful chemicals by any governmental agency.   These agencies can not even say that you should or shouldn't drink, cook with, or bath in the contaminated water.   Drink at your own risk.  The water may or may not safe for use by pregnant women,  but using it is probably not a good idea.

Yes the company that stored this chemical had its rights, even the right to go bankrupt, and escape all financial liability.   The individual or individuals that owned this company could form a new company and acquire this company for pennies on the dollar out of the bankruptcy courts and not be responsible for the spill.  This owners of this company also owned coal mines run by a separate company so they could say that this disaster was not caused by coal mining, even though these chemicals were used in mining and processing the coal.

This is what happens when we don't have an intrusive federal government regulations.   The poor people up and down this river and all of the other rivers that this river flows into including one near the Speaker of the House's community have to just suck it up,  because the Speaker of the House believes it is not his business to pass new laws which protect our health and rights, its his job to see that all these regulations and laws are to be rescinded.

Point being is that we at least have some say in how our federal government is run,  we have no say in how powerful economic institutions are run unless we are wealthy and own a good portion of the controlling stock in that company.

When these powerful wealthy people buy votes of our politicians we have no voice at all.    Ron Paul with his Ayn Rand philosophy does not speak for any person but himself, because after all that is her philosophy, the all powerful, 'I.'      When the "I" which is singular has control of all of the economic and political wealth of our country,  there is nothing left for the rest of us.   Thank God that the "Power of I" is splintered up among all of the governmental bodies from the water boards, school boards and the like, to the lowly townships, to the counties, to the three layers of governmental authority in the state and federal government and to all of the governmental agencies which all have a teeny, tiny bit of the authority to regulate the economic interests and "Powerful I"s in our country.
Be true to yourself.  The future will reveal itself in its own due time.    Find the calm at the heart of the storm.    I own my womanhood.

I am a 69-year-old transsexual school teacher grandma & lady.   Ethnically I am half Irish  and half Scandinavian.   I can be a real bitch or quite loving and caring.  I have never taken any hormones or had surgery, I am out 24/7/365.
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Jamie D

Quote from: michelle on February 08, 2014, 08:57:57 PM
SNIP

Basically19th century capitalism and 19th century communism were both oppressive systems that economically enslaved the majority of the individuals in their countries under sweat shop conditions.   The right wing conservatives today want to return to the conditions of 19th century capitalism where governments protected the wealthy few industrialists and workers had few if any economic rights and labor was paid pennies a day,  just like in many third world nations today which are just beginning to industrialize.  This is kinda the ideal industrial factories in China so beloved by a past Republican Presidential candidate,  who lost the 2012 Presidential election.

In the United States we have a government of, by, and for the people the purpose of which is to protect the life, liberty, and happiness of every individual without any exceptions living in the United States and its commonwealths, and territories.   This means that the government exists for the 100% and not just for the 1%. 

The United States is the Rainbow Coalition in the totality of everything that is us.

Michelle, that's known as a "straw man."  It is a fallacious type of argument based on distortion.
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amZo

QuoteThe reason the right wing hated the Communists was that the means of gaining wealth and owning property were taken away from individuals and now owned by the government.    Individuals could no longer corner most of their communities wealth under communism,  individuals to gain wealth would have to become members of the communist party which was kind of an atheistic religion, then work their way up through the power system of the party to a point where the group they belonged to could siphon of a good portion of the nations wealth under the guise of their living a life of luxury allowed them to be better leaders and make the best decisions for the country. 

I am simply aghast. Better 'leaders'? Best decisions?  :o

BTW, capitalism isn't about greed or making tons of money. It's about being free. The worst off under capitalism is still better off than the best off under communism. And your relatives aren't sent off to torture camps if you decide to flee... BONUS!

I thought I had no words, but I guess that's about it.

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Androgynous_Machine

Quote from: LearnedHand on November 11, 2013, 11:16:27 PM
This post is only asking people who believe in "small government".

For people who want small government, what's the point of having a government?

I'm a libertarian (which I think all minorities should be) and let me say this.  Limited government =/= no government.

Federal power has legitimate and illegitimate uses.

Quote from: LearnedHand on November 11, 2013, 11:16:27 PM
I don't really consider myself a supporter of "big government", but I'd probably be labeled as so by some. I kind of think part of the purpose of having a government is to protect the citizens by outside and internal threats, discrimination, etc. A poster recently said (and I now other people off of Susan's say the same) that anti-discrimination laws are big government and interferes with personal liberties (other poster, sorry if I got what you were saying wrong).

Let me point out the clear fact that Government has been, far and away, the largest discriminator in American history and usually is the last to the party when it comes to being non-discriminate.

Anti-gay laws, Anti-trans laws, Jim Crowe Laws, etc are all examples of big government and a huge black mark in government's history of being the engine of discrimination.  A limited government who respects individual rights, supports maximum liberty, and one that would understand it's proper role in society wouldn't have the ability to enact any of these laws.

DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act) signed into law by President Clinton, had bi-partisan support in Congress, barred gays from openly serving in the military among a great many other things.  This also hurt trans men and women in a number of ways.  But that largely doesn't matter in context to the discussion at hand, what does matter is government power was used illegitimately to discriminate against a specific group of people.  This would not have been possible in a limited-government scenario.

Quote from: LearnedHand on November 11, 2013, 11:16:27 PM
I have some friends who work in housing discrimination and the discrimination in housing is a huge problem (they go out and pretend to be interested in an apartment and then report what the landlord said -- it's not uncommon that the non-minorities get better rental rates while the minorities are told the apartment has a higher rent. When discrimination is evident, the landlord is brought to the housing court); it's hard to just shop around when you either don't know you're being discriminated against or there's no where else to go. Freedom of contract is something that I support, but it's hard when there's unequal bargaining power and in my view the government should step in to protect the needy to allow them to bargain equally.

Yes, but these situations are correctable within the State.  States are fully capable, and usually more effective, at properly handling these situations.  The federal government is a blind, dumb, strong, and encumbering beast who usually ends up doing more harm than good.

Quote from: LearnedHand on November 11, 2013, 11:16:27 PM
I was also a little surprised by Ron Paul back when he was running in the primary who said that the victims of flooding in Vermont shouldn't be helped by the government. I understand FEMA is expensive, but it seems kind of harsh to just say "those people up on the mountains, it's their own fault for not having flood insurance" (<--obviously, not a direct quote from Paul). I also believe Paul made statements like this concerning other natural disasters.

It isn't just that FEMA is expensive, it's incredibly wasteful, loaded with bureaucracy, and hey, makes some astoundingly bad decisions.  A far better way to spend those resources would be to have the Federal Government give the funding directly to the State and NOT another alphabetical soup agency.

Quote from: LearnedHand on November 11, 2013, 11:16:27 PM
If we don't help people who get struck by a natural disaster, protect those who are vulnerable, then what does government do? Just. . . upkeep infrastructure?

All kinds of things.  Foreign trade, defense, international relationships, regulate interstate commerce, money regulatory policies, making sure the states abide by the Constitution, courts, etc.

There's tons our government can do within the constructs of limited government.


-AM
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Tadpole

I like to think that things like excessive surviellance, and censoring, might be less in a smaller government where there would still be a police force if things got really out of hand but the people might be happier in some ways. Problem is food stamps and other government assistance could also be cut drastically and that would put more people out on the street if we could not improve the job situation in this country so that people find it easier to get hired.
:D

The obsolete tadpole.
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michelle

#11
We are a country that is governed by laws.    Throughout our history the laws of the United States have reflected the interests in our country who had the right to vote.    Thus when our country was founded the right to vote was in the hands of men who had money and property.    These most powerful group was white men of property.   There may have been very few instances where a non white male had the right to vote.   Thus the laws in the United States also protect the establish commercial interests within each political district.   The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence were framed in broad terms which implied that  there was,  "Liberty and Justice for all."   But for all practical purposes this was just white adult males of means.   Women, Asians, Africans, Native Americans were all left out of the franchise.    When women married they lost their citizenship, and they became citizens of the country of their husbands.   

However for much of our nations history we had a frontier where the right to vote was granted to a broader population and the commercial interests were different from those of the first thirteen states.   

As women, Asians, Blacks, Africans, Latin Americans gained the right to vote, and they obtained commercial wealth they became more politically powerful and the laws were changed to protect their legal and commercial interests.   This is why the Republicans are trying to limit these groups from voting in many states today.   They are trying to take away these groups political power and their civil and commercial rights in the country today.



This is a never ending struggle.   Thus we need strong federal government to protect the civil, commercial, judicial, and political rights of all of the people in the United States.   Laws need to be passed to instruct the courts that they have the power and legal authority to protect these rights for members of the GLBTQ community.   

The size of the government needs to reflect the rights and maintains the infrastructure for all of the residents of the United States in a global political and economic community.    So what do we mean by "small government?"  And does it really make any sense in  "believing in small government?"   We need the size of government that gets the job of governing done.    Also, when we think of government, governmental power in the United States begins in the water boards, school board, townships, counties, states, the federal government, plus many other smaller elected governmental bodies.   So in order to have "small government"  how many of these governmental bodies are we going to get rid of?

As far as this criticism of my previous posting:

Michelle, that's known as a "straw man."  It is a fallacious type of argument based on distortion.

I may be guilty of over generalizing,  but my argument is based upon a reasonable interpretation of the history of the United States.     I have a bachelor's degree in Social Sciences with many hours in history, plus I have I personal interest in historical reading.   My argument is sound based upon my studying of history.   You may not agree with me, but you should not be so dismissive of my opinion.   

I respect your opinions, and your right to hold them.   But I also have the same rights to mine which do have an academic basis.   I also know there are several differing perspectives that history is based upon.   I favor the progressive interpretation of history.
Be true to yourself.  The future will reveal itself in its own due time.    Find the calm at the heart of the storm.    I own my womanhood.

I am a 69-year-old transsexual school teacher grandma & lady.   Ethnically I am half Irish  and half Scandinavian.   I can be a real bitch or quite loving and caring.  I have never taken any hormones or had surgery, I am out 24/7/365.
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Hikari

Quote from: Nikko on February 09, 2014, 12:08:32 PM
I am simply aghast. Better 'leaders'? Best decisions?  :o

BTW, capitalism isn't about greed or making tons of money. It's about being free. The worst off under capitalism is still better off than the best off under communism. And your relatives aren't sent off to torture camps if you decide to flee... BONUS!

I thought I had no words, but I guess that's about it.

Capitalism is about maximizing profit. It has nothing to do with freedom. Pinochet wasn't selling freedom to the people when he made them disappear. Markets don't protect against despotism. Markets were more or less free by the standard of western democracies in fascist countries as well, yet those countries were not all good places to live like North America or the EU.

It would be wrong to conflate economic systems with political systems. Countries that have been ran by Communist parties have had quite a few economic systems from the worker managed market driven enterprises of Yuogoslavia, to the top down economic planning of the Soviet Union, to the market systems with state intervention of China.

They also had lots of differing political systems. To call them all the same would be like saying the United Kingdom is oppressive to women's rights due to Saudi Arabia having a monarchy.


As to the OPs question obviously I am sort of unqualified to answer, since I want state directed investment, nationalization of large parts of the economy, a focus on domestic production and utilization rather than global markets, etc. I believe in democracy being better than greed so I guess that makes me a supporter big government.
私は女の子 です!My Blog - Hikari's Transition Log http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,377.0.html
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Jill F

Governments seem to exist first and foremost to keep themselves in power.  Left, right or just plain wrong, this is the one thing all the world's governments have in common.
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michelle

Governments exist to settle disputes within the social community;  build, maintain, and manage the communities's infrastructure, and regulate trade.   One of the histories of governmental development is recorded within the Bible.   The Bible records the development of government and social institutions among the tribes of Israel.   The Bible gives a look into the societal relationships within this tribal society.   It records disputes and feuds among individuals within this tribal society.   The Bible records a basic outline into how the state of Israel and Judah developed over time.   It also gives us the Israelis view of the differing social structures within the differing societies of their neighbors.   Within the Bible we see the development of their laws and how the Ten Commandments and Torah became the laws of their community and foundation for their government.   These laws covered every aspect of Jewish life over the centuries.   

The  many layering governments of the United States are the results of many thousands of years of governance of many differing societies including the Native American governmental structures in the Americas.   We decided that the source of governmental power came from the social contract of all of the residents of the United States and individuals' equal civil rights were the result of every single individuals,  throughout time, being creatures of God.   God can create by natural selection and universal natural laws over the whole billions and billions years of existence of the Universe.    The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution provide a means by which every single individual of every religion, race, ethnic group, creed, sexual orientation,  gender identity, sex, manner of birth, and others may struggle to gain their civil, legal, economic, educational, health, religious, etc rights and freedoms which each individual must exercise in a responsible manner.     Maintaining these rights is a constant struggle because of the constant struggle for political, civil, and economic power within our society and the fact that some groups would deny groups they don't like their rights under the Constitution.   Trans individuals have all of their rights within the United States, but our courts and legal system say that they do not have the legal right to protect these rights from individuals and groups that would deny them to us.    We need laws passed or Supreme Court decisions to direct the courts and legal authorities that it is their responsibility to protect the rights of the GLBTQ individuals under the jurisdiction of the United States government.   When we are discriminated against we can take the matter to court and the court will adjudicate our disputes and penalize     those who discriminate against us. 

We need the size government that can govern;   defend;   create, maintain, regulate, our  infrastructure;   regulate the commerce;  settle the disputes:  educate; and provide for the health and welfare of  the over 300,000,000 people who live in all of the United States, the commonwealths, and territories of the United States.

Size of government is kind of irrelevant.
Be true to yourself.  The future will reveal itself in its own due time.    Find the calm at the heart of the storm.    I own my womanhood.

I am a 69-year-old transsexual school teacher grandma & lady.   Ethnically I am half Irish  and half Scandinavian.   I can be a real bitch or quite loving and caring.  I have never taken any hormones or had surgery, I am out 24/7/365.
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amZo

#15
Quote from: Hikari on February 19, 2014, 08:32:42 PM
Capitalism is about maximizing profit. It has nothing to do with freedom. Pinochet wasn't selling freedom to the people when he made them disappear. Markets don't protect against despotism. Markets were more or less free by the standard of western democracies in fascist countries as well, yet those countries were not all good places to live like North America or the EU.

It would be wrong to conflate economic systems with political systems. Countries that have been ran by Communist parties have had quite a few economic systems from the worker managed market driven enterprises of Yuogoslavia, to the top down economic planning of the Soviet Union, to the market systems with state intervention of China.

They also had lots of differing political systems. To call them all the same would be like saying the United Kingdom is oppressive to women's rights due to Saudi Arabia having a monarchy.


As to the OPs question obviously I am sort of unqualified to answer, since I want state directed investment, nationalization of large parts of the economy, a focus on domestic production and utilization rather than global markets, etc. I believe in democracy being better than greed so I guess that makes me a supporter big government.

Capitalism isn't about maximizing profit, you have no idea what you're talking about. It's about free market driven allocation of capital. It is about freedom or a bottom up approach rather than a tyrannical centrally planned coercive approach. Done.

Milton Freedman was the top economist of our day, probably forever. This is a good video. BTW, Pinochet expelled communism (a despicable evil murderous ideology) from his country with very small casualty numbers, please compare to any and all socialist dictatorships. There is no comparison...



A few more...






And one of my all time 'favorites'...

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