Hello everyone,
Rape. Hideous word isn't it? And often highly contested as to how we as a community should/can respond. concerns ranging from protecting the victim, allowing the healing to begin, what to say, when to say something and the social delicacy and hand wringing that takes place when the topic arises.

Let me briefly explain why I bring the subject up. In another forum I participate in we were approached by an individual that learned of his friends recent rape. he explained how as a good friend he felt helpless to tell her anything other than "That is horrid, I'm so sorry you went through this. I don't know what to say, but if you need any thing I'm fully supportive." he went on to give a few generic particularities and background and explained his friend wouldn't/didn't report the rape. Lot's of talk ensued. Many (myself included) voiced our opinion that the Victims silence perpetuates the rape culture that the rapist relies on to escape the consequences. There was another opinion voiced and that was; just by telling a victim what to do concerning the rape (ie. report it) constitutes as victim shaming; "if you don't report it it just enables the rapist..."

what I'm hoping for is to hear the opinions and perhaps experiences concerning discussion of this topic from the point of view of transgender women. The reason I wish to tap my own support network (you lovely ladies) is because I believe the topic deals with topics we deal with, Support groups, recovering a sense of self, victim hood, empowerment, internet trolling, victim blaming and many others. I believe we have a unique view into the topic that is often silenced and marginalized. I'd like to hear our thoughts and experiences.

I have a few disclaimers and guidelines I would like to see us follow as we do so, in addition to Susan's Place TOS (terms of service)
Remember divulging doesn't give one privilege, what happened to you doesn't make your opinion more weighty that some one with no Rape experience.
Let's not make this a political processes, meaning; there is no black and white here, just view points.
be mindful that this topic might be painful or hard for others or even yourself. 
be kind to each other. These are your sisters, some of you are role models be mindful of the women that look up to you.

Out of curiosity, why do you only want the point of view of transwomen? Just wondering as a trans man who was raped.

Wow. Great question.

My thoughts:

* Rape is notoriously hard to prove and open to accusations of victimization of the rapist. "She's getting back at him because he..." This is compounded by the fact that rape so frequently occurs between acquaintances so implications of consent sound credible. Therefore reporting/pursuing a rapist becomes a lower probability proposition than other crimes.

* Because rape occurs intimately between the rapist and victim with no other witnesses, rape charges nearly always involve an accusation by the victim. This is not true about other crimes. Get jumped in an alley? Have your car stolen? Pickpocketed? If the criminal is caught, chances are it's by the cops, and the accusation comes from them. Get raped? You're doing the accusing.

* Whenever you're accusing someone, you're vulnerable. False accusation is a crime in and of itself, so by reporting a rape you risk being accused of a crime yourself.

* In an extraordinarily large portion of rapes, the victim did something that made it easier for the rapist to get away with it. Intoxication, allowing herself to be among strangers or alone with the victim, or showing sexual interest in the rapist before knowing he is dangerous, are examples. This opens up the victim to all sorts of guilt and self-blame. No matter how well they know that rape is a decision of the rapist, a lot of victims feel partially responsible. My first girlfriend was raped at age 14. She'd used the elevator in her building despite being warned against it by her mother. She got in with a well dressed man who forced her into her own apartment, tied her up and raped her. This man was pure evil, and she was 14, but my girlfriend still blamed herself because she shouldn't have gotten into the elevator.

* Given that, rape victims need extraordinary courage to go through with a prosecution. Many do have that courage. I'd like to think I would (though truth in advertising, I'm still a few months away from acquiring the orifice that puts me in most danger), but I'm a confident person, with a lot of personal supports. I would NEVER judge someone who did feel they had it in them to go through with it, though I would consider them a hero (heroine?) if they did.

* Rape tends to be a gendered crime, given that most perpetrators are male and  most victims are female. That has caused rape discussions to develop all sorts of political overtones. It becomes a so-called "feminist" issue. That makes it hard to talk about without accusations of sexism and insensitivity.

* The term "rape culture" has come to be applied a lot lately, out of frustration with the difficulty of enforcing rape laws. I don't buy that we are a rape culture. On the contrary, a brief reading of history and cultural anthropology reveals modern western culture to be one of the most accommodating in history and in the world to rape victims. Given how rarely rapists are held accountable, it shows just how abysmal life was for women in other eras and still is in some places. There are countries where women are routinely punished for BEING raped, as appalling as it sounds. I agree that there is a lot of room for improvement, but I think that's a result of how complicated the problem is, rather than a shortcoming of our culture.

* I also think there seems to be a puzzling tendency lately to paint rape as a mistake and rapists and simply imperceptive. The consent movement is an example. There is a push to classify anyone who doesn't actively say yes as not having given consent, as if rapes would be prevented merely if rapists understood that their victim did not want him forced upon her. I find this incomprehensible.

Wow. I hadn't planned to go on this long. Well, I hope this is the sort of thing you were looking for.

Quote from: Edge on February 13, 2014, 05:39:56 PM
Out of curiosity, why do you only want the point of view of transwomen? Just wondering as a trans man who was raped.

While I do understand rape is perpetrated on trans men as well, the reason I posed the question to Trans women is primarily because of the fact that Rape tends to be a gendered crime. And the very nature of transwomen's experience as being genetically assigned male at birth, having lived part of our lives lumped in with "the guys" the issues of overcoming expected male behavior including being negatively stereotyped is  considerably different than the Transman's experience.
{ Note to mods } I didn't realize I had placed this in the General Transgender Topic area, please move to the Transwomen discussion area. TY.

I'll move the topic, but just bear in mind that anyone, including cis people and trans folks other than women, can weigh in with thoughts and experiences.

there is definite a lot to be said, but I think all I want to say is do unto others as you would have them do unto you. and also you need to put the guilty party in prison.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 13, 2014, 05:52:12 PM
Wow. Great question.

...

* The term "rape culture" has come to be applied a lot lately, out of frustration with the difficulty of enforcing rape laws. I don't buy that we are a rape culture. On the contrary, a brief reading of history and cultural anthropology reveals modern western culture to be one of the most accommodating in history and in the world to rape victims. Given how rarely rapists are held accountable, it shows just how abysmal life was for women in other eras and still is in some places. There are countries where women are routinely punished for BEING raped, as appalling as it sounds. I agree that there is a lot of room for improvement, but I think that's a result of how complicated the problem is, rather than a shortcoming of our culture.

Wow. I hadn't planned to go on this long. Well, I hope this is the sort of thing you were looking for.

Wow indeed Suzi! lots of stuff.

I see the Term "Rape culture" to be "the culture of rape" as opposed to our culture that has rape in it.. the rapist is of course in both cultures but in the culture of rape (Generally He) is the principle concern.
to explain my point of view better I would define culture as; a mode and system of the transfer of values and philosophies through time. So addressing how the mentality of a rapist exist generation to generation might help undermine it's existence. I have often seen others draw a parallel between the transmission of Patiachisim cultural norms and Rape Culture. And often when Patriarchal values gets drawn into the debate a feminist counter stance is often drawn.

Understanding male Privilege is something I believe we as Transwomen see alot of, We realize it as we give it up, we realize it for the oppressive cultural phenomenon that it is. sometimes I even draw on it, "oh this is really heavy, would you help me?" [bats eyes at nearest Manlyman.]

do you think the Rape problem is in it's root a Patriarchal problem?
do statistics show Matriarchal leaning Society's have a lower rape statistic?  <--beginning an internet search.
Sociology was never my interest in school studies so by back ground in these fields is admittedly shallow.

and yes Stephaniec, I also agree that People convicted of Rape need to be Locked up, but for what propose? will it deter rape? will it reform the Rapist? I often read in the news that Rapist are often repeat offenders. so is prison really reforming them? will tougher penalties help?

personally I believe it's a very serious infringement on the rights of an individual and needs to be dealt with severely and maybe the three times good bye law with no possibility of release. Sorry your choice stop or just be permanently locked up.

Unless a rape victim can positively identify their attacker, they should get to an ER and have a rape kit exam done.

With modern DNA technology and databases the attacker will probably be identified at some point.

Rape is not a sexual crime, it is a crime of violence.  A significant number of men are raped, and the perpetrator is not necessarily male.  I personally know of a transman who was raped by a group of lesbians, so any combination is possible.

Randi

Quote from: Randi on February 15, 2014, 05:16:28 PM
Rape is not a sexual crime, it is a crime of violence. 

I hear this statement all the time and have problems with it because at what point do we label an act as, I don't know, a misunderstanding or a miscommunication or wires getting crossed, and not as an actual rape? I know that the barometer is supposed to be that when one partner says "no" or "stop," the other person has to stop. But that guideline has problems.

For example, people say those words during sex all the time. I also tend to think that a guy (or person) with half of his (or her) brain's blood volume redirected to a penis (and the penis in full use) is not going to be operating mentally at peak efficiency and might not easily differentiate between one unclear message that means "keep going" and another that means "stop this instant."

Sorry to break in, but nobody has ever been able to fully set my mind at rest on some of these issues. And my own post-T sexual experiences have persuaded me that my concerns might be valid.

Quote from: Mercédes on February 15, 2014, 04:31:09 PM

do you think the Rape problem is in it's root a Patriarchal problem?
do statistics show Matriarchal leaning Society's have a lower rape statistic?  <--beginning an internet search.
Sociology was never my interest in school studies so by back ground in these fields is admittedly shallow.

Firstly please excuse my ->-bleeped-<-ty sentence structure... I am watching kids, cooking lunch and 3000 other things whilst I do this

So in response I can safely say that as part of my degree we spoke about this topic and the conclusion was neither a male driven or female driven society will reduce rape. Because both sexes are capable of it and regardless it is more often than not situational and unplanned. Indeed rape comes in several forms from penetration to forced contact etc and is both violence driven and sexually driven. In fact is psychological about power.

Another topic we worked on as part of my first degree was in regards to rape figures in Australia. This was impossible to answer as statistics are never accurate enough to give a concise answer. In fact taking into account the extraneous variables that will always arise it is not an easy task. Nevertheless, we know more women will report it. Where as more men will not report. Yet, the number of males coming forward has increase expediently compared to reports by women in Australia, this fact is indisputable because the numbers have increased in the last few years. However, that statement does not mean "more males" are being raped. Instead I believe this is because more men are now encouraged to report it, much like the recent shift in Australia for men to report DV the normalising of men reporting rape has become acceptable in the medical field. In many ways our cultural mores are changing to match this shift. Indeed, in my third year I did research for the South Australian government regarding homelessness, mental wellbeing and as such rape/neglect/abuse became part of it one way or another. To gauge it better I did both qualitative and quantitative research on the topic towards the end of my placement (well I did the basic ground work for the next researcher to follow-up on).

The results were disturbing with regards to the two "typically " gender type responses, but were also very much generational too.

This is from the qualitative section of my draft report notes:

>Of the males the largest volume that suggested rape was the survivors fault was older males in their 50+ range.
>Of the older females (50+) it was  suggested that rape of any gender type was unacceptable.
>Conversely,  both female/male officers (20-45 age) were less likely to pursue charges of rape when a male reported it. But more likely to purse it if the survivor was under 17 years of age and male (as they had no choice with regards to underage rape).   
> Both female/male officers (20-45 age) were more likely to pursue charges of rape when a female reporting it. But under the impression that whilst males could be rape by other men, it was still harder to prove a female raped a male.

One older male Officer indicated that, "in his training he was told that women can not rape a man, so he normally did not follow it up. Instead if charges were put in place the prosecution more often than not will do their best to stop it before it reaches trial. As it is almost impossible to prove."

Another younger male officer suggested that, "if those " certain guys" did not have long hair, then men would not try to instigate sexual contact with them. Plus honestly most men get drunk get busted by their wife and just throw out the accusation of "I was raped" to keep the marriage intact."

A female officered reported, "in most cases we do not have the resources to work with males that give misleading information or in rare cases where apparent accusations of rape do occur we are not trained in how to respond."

While these "facts" ( I use the word facts loosely) are mostly here say they make you wonder about the societal notion of what is rape. Yet, I know as a survivor of rape, I can tell you it is the worst feeling to be so disempowered. Indeed , being left a hollow shell is unfathomable. 

In terms of the answers I got, I would say that it leans towards an old school patriarchal notion of things in the police force, but one that has began to be questioned by newer officers.

nice report

Two words: mandatory penectomy

You abuse it, you lose it.  Rapists are the scum of the earth.

Quote from: Jill F on February 15, 2014, 08:40:51 PM
Two words: mandatory penectomy

What if the rapist has no penis?

Quote from: stephaniec on February 15, 2014, 04:39:36 PM
personally I believe it's a very serious infringement on the rights of an individual and needs to be dealt with severely and maybe the three times good bye law with no possibility of release. Sorry your choice stop or just be permanently locked up.

Quote from: Jill F on February 15, 2014, 08:40:51 PM
Two words: mandatory penectomy

You abuse it, you lose it.  Rapists are the scum of the earth.

I spent a bit of time digging around about Rape Statistics and was Surprised by a few numbers I found out there.
Rapists are more likely to be a serial criminal than a serial rapist.[1]

46% of rapists who were released from prison were re-arrested within 3 years of their release for another crime.4

<2% for sexually related crimes
18.6% for a violent offense.
14.8% for a property offense.
11.2% for a drug offense.
20.5% for a public-order offense.

these types of statistics lead me to believe that of the Rapist caught few are repeat sex ofenders. but many are repeat criminals. Would tougher punishment improve these numbers? not likely. in fact one theory is a three strike type law might actually escalate the murder/rape occurrences biased on the fact that a convicted rapist might not wish to leave a living witness when life imprisonment is on the line.

[1]https://www.rainn.org/statistics

I have a family member that was a victim of sexual abuse.  All I can say is that the effects of the crime can live on with the victim for the rest of their life and justice is rarely served. It's terrible and I'd rather leave my personal experience with it at that. 

One thing I did want to point out is that it's "not" the victim's responsibility to prosecute their assaulter.  Sure, she or he may wish to do so and should get all the justice they deserve, but I really don't feel comfortable putting any responsibility or burden on those that were victimized.  Keep in mind we live in a culture that often slut shames women and often treats those who claim that they were assaulted as fabricating their story.  How many times have you heard "oh she wanted it" or "she shouldn't have put herself in that situation" or something along those lines. Sadly, the victim becomes the assaulter and receives the blame. Then you have soft laws that allow many perpetrators to go unscathed when the severity of their crime is much worse than the penalty they receive.  At the end of the day, even those who go forward often don't feel justice was served.  It's sickening and it prevents many women and men from reporting the crime at hand.  To deny rape culture I think is to deny what many victims go through in order to get justice or be treated with respect for being victimized. So while I agree that the rapist deserves to be punished, I don't think we should ever judge the victim for staying silent considering what they are up against.  We aren't in their shoes and it's not right to judge how they handled it.  It places the blame where it shouldn't be and really does reinforce the notion of rape culture in my opinion. That's why we need to start treating rape and sexual assault with more seriousness in the justice system, stop victim bashing or slut shaming, and doing more as a society to prevent it from occurring and getting victims the help they may need. That's just my personal opinion.

Anybody who tries raping me is going to either look down the barrel of a gun and flee, or they will eat a lead salad if they continue to attack (assuming I don't let them get me before I can react). That's if I'm not able to just run away as fast as possible. Even if I don't kill them or deliver a lethal shot, if they are hit they likely to need to see some sort of medical professional soon if they value life and limb, and those medical professionals are bound to report gunshot wounds to the authorities.

My mother was raped many years ago, before my sister and I were born. Of the 4 girlfriends I've had, only my current one has not been raped. Plenty of my female friends and several of my male friends have told me they've been raped or sexually violated in their lives. I live in the rape capitol of the US, with 2.5 times more rape going on compared the national average. (my mother wasn't in this country or even continent when she was, but the rest I know were here)

My family has instilled a love of shooting in me. With the thousands and thousands of rounds of practice I've had just with my XD I could put 3 .45 hollowpoints in someone's eye in a matter of seconds, including unholstering. If HRT weakens my strength enough to widen my 3 shot groups, or the time it takes to make them (I practice by drawing and trying to land 3 shots in the same spot as quickly as I can, then reholstering, retrying), I have even more practice on my 9mm and .22 pistols, and they are easier to shoot (plus they hold more bullets). Furthermore it's very much legal to carry a gun and defend yourself with it where I live - and I carry every day.

I've had to draw down on people on a few -really scary- occasions - I have pretty bad luck with people I think. Lots of dealing with homeless and drunks. Now I try to avoid them at all costs. 4 lumps of still-painful scar tissue from being kidney-punched with brass knuckles are a pretty good reminder of that fact. If he had decided to punch me in the head/throat instead, or if I let him keep punching, I might not be alive right now. Same deal if he had a knife or some other deadly weapon. However I've never had to shoot anyone, the gun is a pretty good deterrent to physical violence and every time they have just ran away (and I ran away too, as soon as I could). I hope I never have to again - it's been over a year since the last occasion.

I've had plenty of friends taken advantage of by scumbags, almost always with weapons. The times I've had to pull a gun on people, there was always a weapon but (luckily) never a firearm involved (other than mine). Once it was 4 guys, one of whom had a baseball bat - and all of them bolted away when my gun came out. Who knows what other weapons or intentions they had - it's pretty easy to hide some pretty deadly stuff. If they all had really gone for me, I may not have been able to shoot them all before they could stop me, but none of them wanted to risk being shot despite their numerical advantage, so they bolted. Nobody wants to get shot. Every time I've had to draw, I've called the cops as soon as I was able to, and gone through the whole process to try to get them caught (which has been rather fruitless so far). I won't let myself be one of those taken advantage of.

I know in most places gun control is a little more tight. Furthermore not all people or societies are OK with using such lethal methods of protection. Some places punish you just for fighting back, in an effort to reduce violence and death. To each their own. But where I live it's legally OK, and I am -totally- fine with hurting or even killing someone if they try to violate or kill me and I've ran out of alternatives. It's them or me. If I don't stop them, or make them seriously reconsider ever getting violent with someone again, or get them put in prison, then they might just do it to someone else after they're done with me, and the horrible cycle continues.

I've seen what rape and assault can do to a person - and I do NOT want that happening to myself.

I think it's a good idea to have some form of personal protection - be it taser/stun gun, pepper spray, knives, firearms, martial arts, a simple cell phone, or whatever you are ok with using and is also legal to own and use in your area.

My mom and sister once got a guy with a club to back off just by holding their cell phones up like they were filming him and calling the police. You don't need a gun to fend off an attacker. Turns out he was on parole, and by coming at my mom and sister with a club, he violated it, even though he backed off. Even little things can make a difference, if you're in a sticky situation.

I myself prefer to hedge my bet. I'm allowed to legally carry a concealed gun in most situations - so I do it. But I'd MUCH rather just avoid conflict in the first place.

Quote from: learningtolive on February 15, 2014, 10:43:49 PM
I have a family member that was a victim of sexual abuse.  All I can say is that the effects of the crime can live on with the victim for the rest of their life and justice is rarely served. It's terrible and I'd rather leave my personal experience with it at that. 

One thing I did want to point out is that it's "not" the victim's responsibility to prosecute their assaulter. Sure, she or he may wish to do so and should get all the justice they deserve, but I really don't feel comfortable putting any responsibility or burden on those that were victimized.  Keep in mind we live in a culture that often slut shames women and often treats those who claim that they were assaulted as fabricating their story.  How many times have you heard "oh she wanted it" or "she shouldn't have put herself in that situation" or something along those lines. Sadly, the victim becomes the assaulter and receives the blame. Then you have soft laws that allow many perpetrators to go unscathed when the severity of their crime is much worse than the penalty they receive.  At the end of the day, even those who go forward often don't feel justice was served.  It's sickening and it prevents many women and men from reporting the crime at hand.  To deny rape culture I think is to deny what many victims go through in order to get justice or be treated with respect for being victimized. So while I agree that the rapist deserves to be punished, I don't think we should ever judge the victim for staying silent considering what they are up against.  We aren't in their shoes and it's not right to judge how they handled it.  It places the blame where it shouldn't be and really does reinforce the notion of rape culture in my opinion. That's why we need to start treating rape and sexual assault with more seriousness in the justice system, stop victim bashing or slut shaming, and doing more as a society to prevent it from occurring and getting victims the help they may need. That's just my personal opinion.

Agreed. the burden to report it is unfairly put on someone that may be incapable or unwilling to do that. I also feel that by not attempting to peruse justice others in the community are placed in danger. No one ever talks about what its like to report a sexual assault. Its hard. It is the ONLY crime in the United States where victims have to prove themselves pure enough to be heard and for the system to work for them. Its a long and hard row to hoe that can be more painful than original assault because its in front of an audience and someone is picking everything about you apart. They will pick you apart from the clothes that you wear, to your relationship status/history, your job, they will talk to you family, your coworkers, your friends, your enemies and dig up all of the dirt that they possibly can and use it against you.

Quote from: ath on February 15, 2014, 11:45:36 PM
Anybody who tries raping me is going to either look down the barrel of a gun and flee, or they will eat a lead salad if they continue to attack (assuming I don't let them get me before I can react). That's if I'm not able to just run away as fast as possible. Even if I don't kill them or deliver a lethal shot, if they are hit they likely to need to see some sort of medical professional soon if they value life and limb, and those medical professionals are bound to report gunshot wounds to the authorities.

Same here. I have my 1911 with me at all times plus like you other handguns, rifles and shotguns. I don't intend to be a victim, and I have had to shoot someone once. I plugged his fat arse right in the left butt cheek. There were three of them over 6 ft. armed with knives against lil ole me all of 5-5 and 120 lb's. They wanted my purse as I exited a check cashing place and turned a corner. This happened back in my home state of California years ago in 1994. Police tookmy report, did an investigation and gave me a receipt for my gun which I got back 1 week later. Turns out they were gangbangers and the fat one I shot rolled on his buddies. In the end all 3 went to jail. So there is justice sometimes. Thing is though and the detective told me this, had I not shot the one all of them would have gotten away with it to rob someone else.