Quote from: calico on February 21, 2014, 04:08:13 PM

Yeah me too,  but I am sure I will be too old by the time I can afford it!

Woah.......   Not to be going off topic to much but...  I am totally interested in knowing more about this.

Quote from: anjaq on February 09, 2014, 06:05:01 PM
What progestin did you take (progestins are progesterone derivates and there are dozens of them!)

Norgestimate

Quote from: calico on February 21, 2014, 04:08:13 PM

Woah.......   Not to be going off topic to much but...  I am totally interested in knowing more about this.

In addition there were great talks on very large cohorts of MtF and FtM on various hormone mixes, the dangers, success and outcomes, some fascinating work on transgender brain structure, surgical techniques, delivery of health care in various countries and models of treating gender incongruent children. I'll start another thread as this one has a separate agenda.

I find it sad that endocrinologists still confuse progestins and progesterone and that they still think that it only plays a role on the uterus if there are sooo many studies showing other effects. Of course many of them are not directly (!) feminizing so if that is the sole focus then all that is left is some effect on the breast development, which some question but which seems to be quite real. But beyond that - reducing water retention, for example in the face makes the fce less "puffy" - which gives a more natural look, thats what I noticed in me. It has effect on the bones and on the brain , mood and all. It boosted my confidence - I mean thats typical for (probably to a large part male?) specialist doctirs - they focus only on pne thing - physical body changes in terms of specific transsexual needs - e.g. change of secondary sex characteristics. Some endocrinologist still thing that no hormones will be able to create a female breast in an XY body - or that hormones cannot really change your face. So I tend to really question their experitise. And to say progesterone is not doing anything when prescribing androcur to all the patients, thats typical. Androcur has some slight progesterone-like effects on breast groth (but not on all the other aspects as it cannot be matabolized) plus it acts possibly as a progesterone inhibitor, locking the receptors and thus decreasing the effect of progesterone if it is added on top of androcur.
With sterilization, Transsexuals loose part of their natural progesterone production, which probably in the case of MtF was not even enough to balance the increased Estradiol (E2) which is added. To claim that there is not a big reduction in Progesterone with removal of the testes and thus we should be fine implies again that old notion that we are "biolgically male" and thus should receive a treatment that fits a "male physiology" which means progesterone can be low (as it would be in "other males") etc. I am sick of that idea that to "make a man look like a woman" (which still seems to be how THEY think of us) one has to kill the "male hormone" (Testo) and add the "female hormone" (Estrogens of any kind). what a sterotypical and archetypical idea. It is so far more complex than that an dI do not understand how endocrinologists do not see that, given that they should be well aware of the complexity of the endocrine systems. Like that Progesterone is linked to all kinds of pathways.
But again - the main fauxpas for them is ther thinking of us as "males who want to look female". That is the whole dilemma. They treat us that way - not realizing that adding estradiol to the body will cause many issues that in all women are balanced by progesterone - in the brain in the bones, in the tissues... and not realizing that there is beginning to be evidece coming up that Transsexuals are having a hypothalamus that is more similar to their "brain sex" than their gonads. Which is possibly why so many transpeople already have hormonal issues beforehand.
This silly notion that basically one just has to add Estradiol and then boobs will grow and fat will redistribute nad the face may feminize a bit due to fat changes - thats just scratiching the surface IMO - the goal should not be as it seems for many to just add a bit of femininity to a male body - but to actually change that body as much as possible, including endocrine systems (sex hormones, steroids, stress hormones,... all of it). This is essential to increase self confidence, fight depression, promote overall body health (bones, digestive systems, skin,...), increase the "radiation of female energy" (sorry, dont know a good english word that sounds less esoteric)...

What I dont know yet is how to really find the best ratio of P to E which seems to be essential, if it is better to take P orally or via the skin or vaginal/sublingual and also if a cycle would make sense or not. For E2 it seems that application via the skin is a lot better as this decreases formation of estrone in the liver. For P4 - KayXo - you said that actually there is something happening in the liver that is actually positive about the Progesterone? I thought of the 5 alpha reductase only as a bad player in the skin and prostate and such which converts Testosterone into DHT and thus causing so much issues. It also seems to do the same to Androstendione which is then also going to DHT via a backdoor. Progesterone also seems to act as a 5 alpha reducatse inhibitor though. I am like some others applying progesterone gel on the skin at the forehead where there was hair loss and seriously - it seems to recover - the fine hair goes longer and thicker again (like before it was blonde and 2mm and now it is like a cm long and dark blonde - after 3 months). It seems to have effects similar to finasteride and a study on skin cells says it is even more effective than progestins in blocking DHT. I did not yet read anything on Progesterone being converted to some anxiolytic hormones though, I need to read that up

KayXo, I would really like to hear more of the literature you found on this and maybe if my access at the uni does not give me that it would be possible to share some documents for legal research purposes

Just to show at a glance some of the main things happening with progesterone in terms of metabolism which is not happening with progestins of course and which has nothing to do with the uterus alone and which makes "you do not need progesteron" quite a crazy statement:

It is all a bit sad to be honest. I only have just under 40 years of clinical research, 80 peer reviewed papers. 5 book chapters, run a diagnostic imaging facility and a proteomic facility. Trained 13 PhD students and more Hons students than I can recall.

I in fact know how ignorant I am; that is part of my job, without knowing my ignorance I can never move forward.

Oh I'm also transgender and I want the best and safest outcomes for myself and my brothers and sisters. As far as P was concerned I mentioned a report on breast development.

Published here:
Katrien Wierckx, Louis Gooren, Guy T'Sjoen. Review: Effect of cross-sex
hormone treatment on breast growth in male-to-female transsexual persons;
no proven benefits of progestins to breast size. (Accepted for
publication in J Sex Medicine)

I do encourage discussion, it is healthy and worthwhile, but please do not dismiss my contributions and those of others because you feel they may not understand you or fit your ideas.

That is hurtful because I and they do care.

Peace

Cindy

Quote from: KayXo on February 21, 2014, 03:49:53 PM
It's crazy how much you talk like me (or I talk like you, lol!), it's like I'm reading myself! Anyways, our brains work the same, you and me. 

LOL =)

Quote from: Cindy on February 20, 2014, 10:12:49 AM
His opinion was that once uterine transplantation was mainstream in young transgender women (which is happening) then it would be essential for those who wished to carry a fetus as the biological role of progesterone is in the reproductive systems of females but essentially biologically useless for women not in a reproductive phase of life.

Not to deviate the topic, but are you referring to a permanent or temporary uterus transplant ?
Is it happening, really ??
PLEASE, I hope I can see a similar thread open soon !!!

Quote from: Oriah on February 21, 2014, 07:47:06 PM
Norgestimate

This is a progestin with ANDROGENIC effects. I don't know if you are still taking it but I'd strongly advise you switch to another progestogen with NO androgenic effects.

Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2014, 05:22:07 AMProgesterone also seems to act as a 5 alpha reducatse inhibitor though. I am like some others applying progesterone gel on the skin at the forehead where there was hair loss and seriously - it seems to recover - the fine hair goes longer and thicker again (like before it was blonde and 2mm and now it is like a cm long and dark blonde - after 3 months). It seems to have effects similar to finasteride and a study on skin cells says it is even more effective than progestins in blocking DHT.

From http://view.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1828548

Cassidenti, D. L., Paulson, R. J., Serafini, P., Stanczyk, F. Z. & Lobo, R. A.
Effects of sex steroids on skin 5 alpha-reductase activity in vitro. Obstetrics and gynecology 78, 103-107 (1991).

"Progesterone, levonorgestrel, and norethindrone demonstrated 97 +/- 5.3%, 47.9 +/- 6.3%, and 59 +/- 4.6% inhibition, respectively, of genital skin 5 alpha-reductase activity at 10(-4) mol/L"

The progesterone level in that study was 10(-4) mol/l = 10(-4)*1000000 mcmol/l = 100 mcmol/l = 31450 ng/ml. Usually, in doses prescribed to us, we usually end up with progesterone levels around 10-30 ng/ml, at most 50-60 ng/ml in the blood. Compare that to the levels needed in that study to inhibit 5-alpha reductase, the difference is about 520 times higher! So, we cannot base ourselves on such a study where levels are beyond imaginable. Not valid.
 

http://www.kegg.jp/kegg-bin/highlight_pathway?scale=1.0&map=map00140
Interesting to see - indeed 5 a reductase is working on progesterone as well as on another product of it, deoxycorticosterone, which then is in fact producing anti anxiety hormones. So it really seems like blocking 5 a reductase is not the best idea of it all.

Cindy - thats interesting that you did research on this topic. Was your research on steroids or also in other parts of endocrinology? I am just doing biochemistry as part of my scientific work, so I can understand a lot but not really have a broad knowledge on this, but to me it seems clear that a lot of stuff is going on with progesterone besides breast development... whats your opinion on progestins like androcur or medroxyprogesterone - sometimes they are used to supress testosterone - many people I know of think they are harmful and would prefer bioidentical progesterone to be used for this purpose as it is less having side effects. Do you also think that a progestin can actually act antiestrogenous - meaning too much CPA could actually diminish the effect of estradiol?

Quote from: Cindy on February 22, 2014, 06:30:15 AM
Published here:
Katrien Wierckx, Louis Gooren, Guy T'Sjoen. Review: Effect of cross-sex
hormone treatment on breast growth in male-to-female transsexual persons;
no proven benefits of progestins to breast size. (Accepted for
publication in J Sex Medicine)

Is this publication accessible at the moment or not? Because I searched for it and did not find it. In any case, it seems clear to me, based on my own experience at the moment and previously, based on feedback from other transwomen and several studies, that progesterone AFFECTS breasts and has the potential to increase breast growth. In just three days, my breasts are already protruding more, areolas are puffier, larger so there is clearly an effect. I will gladly read any research that says otherwise but honestly, how can I agree when my own experience contradicts it? Perhaps, the anxiolytic effects produced by progesterone's metabolite, allopregnanolone are allowing the E to be more effective but whatever the case may be, the addition of progesterone is having an effect on my breasts and thousands of transsexual (and cis, most probably) women would also attest to this. How can one also account for the repeated findings that breast growth is more during the luteal phase, when both P and E are higher vs the follicular phase when only E is present? Research has no room for feelings, only for facts and this should be our goal. We need to put aside our egos, our pride, our feelings and search for facts that we can all agree on.  

Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2014, 07:53:57 AM
Do you also think that a progestin can actually act antiestrogenous - meaning too much CPA could actually diminish the effect of estradiol?

All progestogens are anti-estrogenic but the effect varies from one tissue to another.

CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63
Pharmacology of estrogens and progestogens: influence of different routes of administration

"In the breast of primates, progestogens may reduce the expression of the ERa and PR, but the estrogen-induced proliferation of the mammary epithelium is not inhibited, but enhanced by progestogens203."

"In contrast to the endometrium, progesterone and most synthetic progestins enhance the proliferative
effect of estrogens on breast epithelium."

Quote from: KayXo on February 22, 2014, 07:48:57 AM
"Progesterone, levonorgestrel, and norethindrone demonstrated 97 +/- 5.3%, 47.9 +/- 6.3%, and 59 +/- 4.6% inhibition, respectively, of genital skin 5 alpha-reductase activity at 10(-4) mol/L"

The progesterone level in that study was 10(-4) mol/l = 10(-4)*1000000 mcmol/l = 100 mcmol/l = 31450 ng/ml. Usually, in doses prescribed to us, we usually end up with progesterone levels around 10-30 ng/ml, at most 50-60 ng/ml in the blood. Compare that to the levels needed in that study to inhibit 5-alpha reductase, the difference is about 520 times higher! So, we cannot base ourselves on such a study where levels are beyond imaginable. Not valid.

Well - I guess
a) one has to compare it to the usually prescribed dosages of the other inhibitors to get a picture if it still can be effective, even if it is not that highly concentrated
b) a topical application directly to the skin may possibly increase the effect here before it goes to the serum?
c) could it be that as you described earlier, the orally taken P4 goes to the liver, a lot of it is reduced there with the 5-a-reductase as you described before and the body actually downregulates the activity of 5-a-reductase as there is so much progesterone transformed by it that it has to be regulated? Could this then also downregulate the 5a reducatse elsewhere???

QuoteEffect of cross-sex
hormone treatment on breast growth in male-to-female transsexual persons;
no proven benefits of progestins to breast size

Could not find it either. I see one thing though - it says PROGESTINS.... not progesterone.

Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2014, 08:09:47 AM
Well - I guess
a) one has to compare it to the usually prescribed dosages of the other inhibitors to get a picture if it still can be effective, even if it is not that highly concentrated
b) a topical application directly to the skin may possibly increase the effect here before it goes to the serum?
c) could it be that as you described earlier, the orally taken P4 goes to the liver, a lot of it is reduced there with the 5-a-reductase as you described before and the body actually downregulates the activity of 5-a-reductase as there is so much progesterone transformed by it that it has to be regulated? Could this then also downregulate the 5a reducatse elsewhere???

All very good questions and suggestions. I don't know! Further research would be needed. But your own experience seems to suggest that topical application of P is effective for scalp hair regrowth unless this was caused by something else going on in your body.

Quote from: anjaq on February 22, 2014, 08:11:51 AM
Could not find it either. I see one thing though - it says PROGESTINS.... not progesterone.

Right but usually both have an effect on breast tissue although some progestins are mildly androgenic (in breast tissue as well?) and if that is the case, then this would be detrimental to breast growth. Some androgenic progestins even appear to have estrogenic effects like norethisterone, or even dienogest. So many factors to consider!

My wife gave me her Balance Progesterone and Estrogen topical crème.  It works great.  I get the mood swings when I'm not taking it.  It also gives me a boost.
The spirolactone given to me(along with some other meds) to keep me alive in my fight with Hep C and cirhossis has pretty much shut down my testosterone production.  In 3 months I started growing breasts, and was fatigued and nauseated all day long.  There are only 3 places where Estrogen, Testosterone and Progesterone are produced.  With 1 shut down, the full weight was put on my adrenal glands.  So, with the Progesterone/Estrogen topical (natural stuff) my body is becoming what it always wanted to be.
Here's the gotcha:  We are all different, and what works for one person fails in another.

Quote from: KayXo on February 22, 2014, 07:16:32 AM
This is a progestin with ANDROGENIC effects. I don't know if you are still taking it but I'd strongly advise you switch to another progestogen with NO androgenic effects.

Actually, it's antiandrogenic....sorry to burst your bubble.  Do your research before you spout misinformation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17505938

Hi Oriah,

I don't mind that you "burst" my bubble. What matters to me is facts. When I provided this information, I only relied on two reports which indicated that norgestimate was androgenic (and not anti-androgenic), these two reports being

1) Maturitas 46S1 (2003) S7–S16
Classification and pharmacology of progestins

2) CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63
Pharmacology of estrogens and progestogens: influence of different routes of administration

Also, it was noted in them that norgestimate was derived from levonorgestrel, which is androgenic. BUT, I should have investigated further. I'm sorry for having provided only partial information and I'm grateful to you for having provided the above information. Upon further research, here is what I found...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15625768

"The progestins norgestimate and norelgestromin exerted a very low androgenic activity. Our data suggest that norgestimate and its metabolite norelgestromin possess weak androgen-like properties. The use of these compounds for clinical application may be of great advantage in the treatment of breast cancer as well as hyperandrogenism in women."

From insert of birth contraceptive pill containing norgestimate

"Receptor binding studies, as well as studies in animals and humans, have shown that norgestimate and 17-deacetyl norgestimate, the major serum metabolite, combine high progestational activity with minimal intrinsic androgenicity."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1324552?dopt=Abstract

"The contraceptive progestin norgestimate (NGM) has a high affinity for uterine progestin receptors and a lack of affinity for androgen receptors similar to that of natural progesterone."

"Serum levels of sex hormone binding globulin, an indicator of androgen-estrogen balance, also increased significantly with NGM/EE in accordance with its low androgenic activity."

Contraception. 1998 Sep;58(3 Suppl):23S-27S; quiz 67S.
Uniqueness of oral contraceptive progestins.
Carr BR.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Texas

"classification of oral contraceptives according to their level of androgenicity. Under such a system, norgestimate, desogestrel, and norethindrone would fall into the low category. (...)while norgestrel,  norethindrone acetate, and levonorgestrel would fall into the high androgenicity category."

I removed doses so that if higher doses are used, then androgenicity increases, most probably. Depends how much norgestimate is used.

Hum Reprod Update. 1995 May;1(3):231-63.
Classification and comparison of oral contraceptives containing new generation progestogens. Newton JR.
University of Birmingham, Women's Health Care Trust, Edgbaston, UK.

"Of particular relevance here may be the recent finding that approximately 20% of administered norgestimate is metabolized into levonorgestrel."

Levonorgestrel is androgenic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2189281

"Norgestimate is similar to progesterone in not significantly stimulating ventral prostate growth in immature rats, whereas levonorgestrel, gestodene, and desogestrel are significantly androgenic in this model. Further evidence of norgestimate's minimal androgenicity is its lack of affinity for human sex hormone binding globulin in vitro."

Although, this finding was in rats so there may be variations across species.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15379365

"This double-blind study compared the efficacy and tolerability of a combined oral contraceptive containing ethinyl estradiol and drospirenone with a preparation containing EE and norgestimate in the treatment of acne vulgaris"

"both preparations increased the level of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and decreased the levels of androgens, changes typically associated with acne improvement."

The preparation containing drospirenone proved to be superior on certain counts, either to due its non-androgenic nature whereas norgestimate is weakly androgenic or because drospirenone's anti-androgenic strength is greater. I'm not sure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8808163

"The newer progestogens desogestrel, norgestimate, gestodene, dienogest and nomegestrol share the common property of having weak or no androgenic effects, but there is great variation between agents in their pharmacokinetic properties and hormonal activities"

And there is another link which shows norgestimate to be androgenic at a certain dose but since the dose is mentioned, I cannot provide this link.

Overall, then, based on your study and various findings, it appears norgestimate, on the whole (net effect of anti-androgenic and androgenic effects) exerts minimal/weak androgenic action.

I apologize for not having given a more accurate, global assessment of norgestimate. I should have checked further. Mea culpa.

BUT, how exactly are you getting your norgestimate??? Isn't it usually only in birth control pills which are known to increase clotting risks way more than bio-identical estradiol because they contain the estrogen, ethinyl estradiol? If this is the case, then I question its use because there are much safer alternatives, equally effective for feminization.

So, after a few days on progesterone, I'm starting to feel really good, calm and stable (no stress) and my breasts are definitely more swollen, still sore, areola+nipple forming a mound (already!) on top of breasts, breasts more bouncy and tender, areolas darker and wider, breasts fuller. Libido is sometimes more intense than usual but nothing really out of the ordinary.

What I'm really hating though is the "high" that I get from it, 1-2 hours after taking it. I get really dizzy and I'm totally out of it. I don't feel this, of course, if I go to bed soon after taking it. I take P twice daily due to half-life. Always with food (and grapefruit, although effect is variable and may be only slight) to increase absorption. Food doubles concentration. In any case, the effect only lasts about 30-40 mins now and I'm thinking I will probably get used to it eventually. So, I'm ready to bite the bullet for a little while more.