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The Transgender Brain - WPATH conference report

Started by Cindy, February 27, 2014, 02:59:58 AM

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Cindy

I'm going to post a series of reports about the recent WPATH conference that I was fortunate to attend. It was in Bangkok Feb 14-18 and had over 600 delegates worldwide.

I'm posting in the transgender open area as I feel the topics are of wide interest.

I'm a little wary as the conference was a place for experts in their fields to present, my caution is that not all people who access boards such as Susan's regard experts as relevant; particularly if the experts opinion differ from their own.

I'm a professional scientist, as are others here, and feel very comfortable in listening to experts and am capable of making informed decision. I do not mean that rudely to anyone.

Several sessions on this. From my particular training the most scientifically interesting.

'Sex Hormones and the Brain'

A tour de force by VU University medical centre in Amsterdam. 

I hate to say this because people never understand it; in any scientific study the most important group are the control groups.

This becomes obvious in anecdotal stories. Yes we all  wish to be validated as 'truly different' I am a trans*gender and this proves it!! Get over it. It isn't science.

This group are good, the next WPATH is hosted by them in 2016.

Their approach is to use MRI brain imaging, they run the only referral center in Holland. That means they have cohorts to look at at.

What was good? They used age and natal gender matched control groups. They looked at pre and post GnRha and post GnRha HRT treated kids. The numbers were small, but my dirty calculations gave them statistical cohorts.

The most fun was the the effect of androstadienone effects. This is a male pheromone secreted in sweat, blood and semen of males. Females or rather people who are attracted to men respond to it. It very simply 'lights up' parts of your brain that are female orientated. Gender does not matter.

They took cohorts of kids who were brave enough to lie in a brain scanning MRI, they had to lay there for an hour! They had three bottles on their chest with a breathing tube to their nose. The experimenter could could choose which vapour was released and the MRI ran.

The results were interesting. natal females and males were clearly different. TG kids were moving towards M if FtM and to F patterns if MtF. PRE-HRT, that is untreated. Once the same kids were on HRT they blended into the preferred group. Obviously there is a control that could not be ethically performed.
For fun at the beginning of the talk, Sarah Burke (the presenter) passed around a bottle of androstadienone for us to sniff. I thought it smelt like male sweat, not unpleasant but interesting, some of my Gay colleagues thought it was a real turn on. I did turn to my straight male colleague and tell him to lay down on the floor and I'd jump his bones. He realised I was joking :laugh: Pity I was getting interested :embarrassed:
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mowdan6

Interesting study.  I have always read about studies on trans brains.  That the hypothalamus shows identity of being male or female regardless of what the body might say.  I see this as another study that shows, we are who we are.  It is not an illness or a mental malfunction. 
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ThePhoenix

Did this study not account for the existence of gay people, both cis- and trans*?  If not, how does that effect the results?
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peky

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 27, 2014, 04:11:27 PM
Did this study not account for the existence of gay people, both cis- and trans*?  If not, how does that effect the results?

The centers for "gender orientation" and those for "sexual orientation" do not overlap they have been mapped to different areas of the brain.
  •  

peky

Quote from: Cindy on February 27, 2014, 02:59:58 AM
I'm going to post a series of reports about the recent WPATH conference that I was fortunate to attend. It was in Bangkok Feb 14-18 and had over 600 delegates worldwide.

I'm posting in the transgender open area as I feel the topics are of wide interest.

I'm a little wary as the conference was a place for experts in their fields to present, my caution is that not all people who access boards such as Susan's regard experts as relevant; particularly if the experts opinion differ from their own.

I'm a professional scientist, as are others here, and feel very comfortable in listening to experts and am capable of making informed decision. I do not mean that rudely to anyone.

Several sessions on this. From my particular training the most scientifically interesting.

'Sex Hormones and the Brain'

A tour de force by VU University medical centre in Amsterdam. 

I hate to say this because people never understand it; in any scientific study the most important group are the control groups.

This becomes obvious in anecdotal stories. Yes we all  wish to be validated as 'truly different' I am a trans*gender and this proves it!! Get over it. It isn't science.

This group are good, the next WPATH is hosted by them in 2016.

Their approach is to use MRI brain imaging, they run the only referral center in Holland. That means they have cohorts to look at at.

What was good? They used age and natal gender matched control groups. They looked at pre and post GnRha and post GnRha HRT treated kids. The numbers were small, but my dirty calculations gave them statistical cohorts.

The most fun was the the effect of androstadienone effects. This is a male pheromone secreted in sweat, blood and semen of males. Females or rather people who are attracted to men respond to it. It very simply 'lights up' parts of your brain that are female orientated. Gender does not matter.

They took cohorts of kids who were brave enough to lie in a brain scanning MRI, they had to lay there for an hour! They had three bottles on their chest with a breathing tube to their nose. The experimenter could could choose which vapour was released and the MRI ran.

The results were interesting. natal females and males were clearly different. TG kids were moving towards M if FtM and to F patterns if MtF. PRE-HRT, that is untreated. Once the same kids were on HRT they blended into the preferred group. Obviously there is a control that could not be ethically performed.
For fun at the beginning of the talk, Sarah Burke (the presenter) passed around a bottle of androstadienone for us to sniff. I thought it smelt like male sweat, not unpleasant but interesting, some of my Gay colleagues thought it was a real turn on. I did turn to my straight male colleague and tell him to lay down on the floor and I'd jump his bones. He realised I was joking :laugh: Pity I was getting interested :embarrassed:

got a link or a reference my brainier college ? Punt intended...LOL

Thanks my Australina friend
  •  

suzifrommd

Quote from: Cindy on February 27, 2014, 02:59:58 AM
Once the same kids were on HRT they blended into the preferred group.

Wonder if that works with adults too. If I stay on HRT long enough, will I develop a totally female brain?

A girl can hope...
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
  •  

peky

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 27, 2014, 05:22:17 PM
Wonder if that works with adults too. If I stay on HRT long enough, will I develop a totally female brain?

A girl can hope...

Some areas of the brain are hard wire, however, others are not, and so susceptible to remodeling.

We know from studying pre-everything MTF, that their brains are already more aligned with the cis females.

The caveats to the neuro studies is two fold, first there is the problem of small number of sample which equals statistically no significant. Second, the MRI resolution is about 1 cubic millimeter, which is too gross for fine mapping. So what that means that in in cubic millimiter there is 1 million neuron which gives you trillion of possible connections, so basically you cannot tell who si talking to who, and what the gender differences are.

No doubt that there are gender difference though

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ThePhoenix

Quote from: peky on February 27, 2014, 05:16:27 PM
The centers for "gender orientation" and those for "sexual orientation" do not overlap they have been mapped to different areas of the brain.

Yes, but this study deals with sexual arousal and purports to say that those exposed to male pheremones reacted in a "female way."  Would that reaction be like a straight female or a lesbian? 
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Cindy

Quote from: peky on February 27, 2014, 05:18:28 PM
got a link or a reference my brainier college ? Punt intended...LOL

Thanks my Australina friend

I'm certainly not brainy!

If you do a pubmed search on Sabine Hannema and/or Baudewijntje P.C. Kreukels you should get to the published studies.

There is also a book by Jaak Panksepp that was recommended to me. When I'm recovered from my present cold/ear ache and shivers I'll look for it.

Just saw another reference by Zubiarre-Elorza et al. These studies were extensively quoted by Antonio Guillamon, who gave a plenary talk on the brain of Transsexual Persons. Unfortunately he had a heavy accent and I could not follow much of his talk
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Cindy

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 27, 2014, 06:21:12 PM
Yes, but this study deals with sexual arousal and purports to say that those exposed to male pheremones reacted in a "female way."  Would that reaction be like a straight female or a lesbian?

Just reading my notes: androstadienone is produced by both male and females but more in males. It is more detectable by females than males and has different activity on females than on males.

In females it increases activity in the sex area of the brain, not gender.

Response summary: lesbian = Het male. Gay = Het Female. MtF = Het female. FtM= Het Male.
It acts via triggering a hypothalamic response. One of my Gay colleagues reported (privately!) a vascular response which was close to TMI >:-)

Sexual orientation was reported by participants verbally prior to testing.
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Taka

that's interesting. i'm glad they are starting to take this stuff seriously.
now to see if they can find something that different genders would react differently to.
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Cindy

Quote from: Taka on February 28, 2014, 04:59:08 AM
that's interesting. i'm glad they are starting to take this stuff seriously.
now to see if they can find something that different genders would react differently to.

?
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