I just got this off the web. In Virginia their debating the proposal that it's ok  for mtf or ftm teenagers play there chosen sports as their new gender only if they've had the surgery so it will be fair for the other athletes. I don't know seems a little extreme

Requiring surgery is unnecessary. Although I can see an argument that they should be on HRT for at least 6 months or longer. 'T' plays a big part in endurance and muscle growth.

One of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.  Having a penis doesn't make you better at a sport in any way.

I don't see how that would make much difference that HRT wouldn't. I'm divided on this issue. Even without T, the average trans girl still probably has physical benefits over the cis girls. It's not just T that makes an XY body more powerful. Greater height, different pelvic structure (which aids running), larger lungs and other organs, facial structure (better able to take hits), etc. There's a reason most sports are segregated by sex.

Of course this is just high school, but I definitely see the controversy over trans women in women's sports. But no, I don't think surgery should be required for them to play. HRT probably should though. But I still have doubts about it being a level playing field. I know that's not a popular opinion and all. I don't think it would necessarily be fair to make a trans girl on HRT play with the guys either. And I know there are tall, strong cis girls and weak, small trans girls, etc. Still, the average XY body has a lot of performance advantages over the XX body, not all of which are T dependent. I appreciate that these girls just want to play with other girls, and it would be awful to be forced to play with the guys. I don't know what the solution is. But sex segregation in sports isn't a thing because of identity but physical difference.

I agree I can see requiring HRT in your present gender, but surgery is entirely too much.  For FTM what surgery(s) would be required, possibly top surgery is the only one that is even imaginable. When you are in high school you are under 18 and most surgeons will not even consider surgery until you are 18.

My view, NO! That is ridiculous! Having a P or V doesn't net you greater or less abilities than the other sex does. Plus, the below quote made a very good point which I'll add something too. As for E & T and the like, I don't believe anyone should be forced to take/do something they either don't or can't do. What this is, is pig headedness to even THINK such a thought about having someone go through a surgery and NEWS FLASH to the people considering this foolish decision! Not EVERY trans person wishs to have a sex change.

Quote from: mm on February 27, 2014, 01:51:04 PM
I agree I can see requiring HRT in your present gender, but surgery is entirely too much.  For FTM what surgery(s) would be required, possibly top surgery is the only one that is even imaginable. When you are in high school you are under 18 and most surgeons will not even consider surgery until you are 18.

I cannot see HRT simply because of what FA said. It basically makes it a mute point and besides, any physical changes would take months to take effect, sometimes a year or more. But, this does raise one very good point. "IF" they do this (Which they shouldn't) then it might mean 3 things here.
1. Surgeons "might" be allowed to do SRS for minors under at least this and possible other circumstances.
2. Getting hormones and or SRS might be made easier and this also might mean it'd be easier for some of us to get them/it done if we wish (Not a "being forced" here part)
3. more public awareness will increase

That said, "toying with/messing with" people's lives like this is wrong! It's bad enough we already have so hard a time as it is and being forced to do stuff we don't wish to do but to add this would be insult to injury in some cases. The REAL solution for this topic of sports is, let them play WITHOUT forcing them to take any hormones/surgery being done (but let them have it if it's what they want) and the proof for why I say this? Read FA's post and you'll see the proof because it's true.

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 01:47:37 PM
Even without T, the average trans girl still probably has physical benefits over the cis girls. It's not just T that makes an XY body more powerful. Greater height, different pelvic structure (which aids running), larger lungs and other organs, facial structure (better able to take hits), etc. There's a reason most sports are segregated by sex.

Uhmmmm. No. So, if we're talking about teenagers, it's actually likely that a trans chick will have more *dis*advantages than advantages. Example: me. I play roller derby. I started transitioning at 29 and started playing at about 30 or so. HRT had already done its thing and my muscle mass was way lower *buuuuut* the bone density was all still there. Fun thing about this is that, because the bones are so much heavier, it's like you're playing with a 20lb weight strapped to you. Movements are slower and less agile. Also: a masculinized pelvis has a different pivot point for the hips. Some things are easier (running straight), some things are harder (getting low in your stance for stability). The size issue is a possibility but an athletic woman can knock me on my tail, no two ways about it.

Take all this and put it into the context of a MtF 16 year-old and you're going to have a slightly heavier skeleton without the increased lung capacity. The rib cage doesn't masculinize until later anyway. At younger ages, with proper HRT in place at the right times and the only 'advantage' a MtF girl will have is somewhat larger hands.

I'm not completely okay with non HRT TG/TS peeps playing sports with their identified gender though. That's a straight up male/female body playing in the sport with opposite bodies and then, yes, all the reasons that sports are sex-segregated come into play.

GRS as a requirement is stupid though. HRT does pretty much everything. GRS just makes you not uncomfortable all the time and gives you the ability to have sexual relations with the opposite sex.

Related news post here:  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,159897.0.html

I don't think the debate here has been properly framed, as it is as much an FtM issue as a MtF issue as an intersex issue.

I agree with most of you. GRS should not be required to participate, as along as the athlete's hormone levels are within the normal range of their chosen gender. As for the "innate" differences that affect sports performance between genetic males and females I'm not too concerned. There are differences between males and females, i.e. the pelvis, but as for tendon insertions, stature, etc. there are just as many differences between individuals males and individuals females. Most of the time these differences affect injury susceptibility, not overall sports performance. Don't forget about technique, there is a lot more to sports than just strength.

No, they should not be required. HRT I think is fair enough.

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 01:47:37 PM
I don't see how that would make much difference that HRT wouldn't. I'm divided on this issue. Even without T, the average trans girl still probably has physical benefits over the cis girls. It's not just T that makes an XY body more powerful. Greater height, different pelvic structure (which aids running), larger lungs and other organs, facial structure (better able to take hits), etc. There's a reason most sports are segregated by sex.

Of course this is just high school, but I definitely see the controversy over trans women in women's sports. But no, I don't think surgery should be required for them to play. HRT probably should though. But I still have doubts about it being a level playing field. I know that's not a popular opinion and all. I don't think it would necessarily be fair to make a trans girl on HRT play with the guys either. And I know there are tall, strong cis girls and weak, small trans girls, etc. Still, the average XY body has a lot of performance advantages over the XX body, not all of which are T dependent. I appreciate that these girls just want to play with other girls, and it would be awful to be forced to play with the guys. I don't know what the solution is. But sex segregation in sports isn't a thing because of identity but physical difference.

Sex segregated sports are discriminatory to women. I understand your point in the strength sense, however (i.e. your not going to have a heavyweight man fight a woman in a boxing ring) however there is definitely a place for all in sport (We have seen even in professional hockey women making appearances in Finland and Florida; two Canadian women actually). Also, with the next generation of trans affected youth having access to medical transition sooner than later, do any of these children have an inherit advantage at any sport? If all trans girls were given appropriate hormonal treatments right at the onset or just before puberty could you really say that in any way that Y chromosome has given them an advantage? I really don't think so. As a matter a fact, scientists working for the NCAA and IOC have concluded that trans people are not at a measureable advantage over their Cis peers after a certain critereon has been met (can't remember it off the top of my head, something like 2 years HRT and may or may not have included surgery). I don't mean this last sentence with any insult nor to sound condescending; I trust the opinion of these scientists over that of yours.

Quote from: stephaniec on February 27, 2014, 01:25:26 PMfevt
I just got this off the web. In Virginia their debating the proposal that it's ok  for mtf or ftm teenagers play there chosen sports as their new gender only if they've had the surgery so it will be fair for the other athletes. I don't know seems a little extreme

Actually, they are not debating this policy anymore.  It has been adopted.  "The surgery" that the policy requires is SRS.  Unfortunately, SRS is generally not available to minors.  Since virtually all high school athletes (excepting a few seniors who will have turned 18 before graduating) will be minors, this has been criticized as a policy that effectively bans trans* participation in sports without actually saying so.  I tend to agree with that criticism.

Quote from: missy1992 on February 27, 2014, 03:31:09 PM

Sex segregated sports are discriminatory to women.

In what way?

Quote from: missy1992 on February 27, 2014, 03:31:09 PM
Also, with the next generation of trans affected youth having access to medical transition sooner than later, do any of these children have an inherit advantage at any sport? If all trans girls were given appropriate hormonal treatments right at the onset or just before puberty could you really say that in any way that Y chromosome has given them an advantage? I really don't think so. As a matter a fact, scientists working for the NCAA and IOC have concluded that trans people are not at a measureable advantage over their Cis peers after a certain critereon has been met (can't remember it off the top of my head, something like 2 years HRT and may or may not have included surgery). I don't mean this last sentence with any insult nor to sound condescending; I trust the opinion of these scientists over that of yours.

That's fine. I haven't seen the study in question. However, there are other physical differences beyond HRT. For example, do you think a 6 ft, broad shouldered trans woman on HRT doesn't still have a physical advantage over most cis women? The differences between XY and XX bodies aren't all hormone related. And true, this might be different once most trans girls are transitioning before puberty. But most 15 year old boys already tower over and outplay their female counterparts. HRT may go a long way towards passing for a teen, but it doesn't render an XY body the same as an XX one. There's still going to be a height, build, and organ difference in most cases. Males have larger hearts and lungs and breathe more often. This isn't hormone dependent. Female bodies have much smaller lung capacity for one. Men do run faster.

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 03:57:40 PM
That's fine. I haven't seen the study in question. However, there are other physical differences beyond HRT. For example, do you think a 6 ft, broad shouldered trans woman on HRT doesn't still have a physical advantage over most cis women? The differences between XY and XX bodies aren't all hormone related. And true, this might be different once most trans girls are transitioning before puberty. But most 15 year old boys already tower over and outplay their female counterparts. HRT may go a long way towards passing for a teen, but it doesn't render an XY body the same as an XX one. There's still going to be a height, build, and organ difference in most cases. Males have larger hearts and lungs and breathe more often. This isn't hormone dependent. Female bodies have much smaller lung capacity for one. Men do run faster.

But aren't many of those differences themselves the result of hormonal differences that come up during puberty?  So if a very young transitioner starts HRT, they would not have those advantages?  Or a person who is hormonally deficient might not develop them in the first place?  What of the disadvantage created by actually having LESS testosterone in a trans* woman's system than in a ciswoman's system.  Might that not cancel out any advantage?  Does HRT change any of those advantages (I.e., reducing lung volume or heart capacity, for example?).  What about trans* men who want to play sports?  Should they be required to play in women's teams even though their systems are full of T?

I really don't know what the right outcome here is.  I'm just trying to point out that this is complicated!

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 03:57:40 PM
In what way?

In implying that women are incapable of doing certain things. Sports were gender segregated initially to empower women. Although I do not think that any sane human being can come out and say that women and men should play, for example, full contact sports in every situation, exceptions should be made. For example, a woman tried out as a field goal kicker for an NFL football team last season. Do you not think a woman is capable of playing goalkeeper for a hockey team? Should boys not be allowed to participate in synchronized swimming? Like gender segregated washrooms gender segregation in sports is well meaning though ultimately fails at protecting all participants. It is my sincerest belief that we will one day pass this.

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 03:57:40 PM
That's fine. I haven't seen the study in question. However, there are other physical differences beyond HRT. For example, do you think a 6 ft, broad shouldered trans woman on HRT doesn't still have a physical advantage over most cis women? The differences between XY and XX bodies aren't all hormone related. And true, this might be different once most trans girls are transitioning before puberty. But most 15 year old boys already tower over and outplay their female counterparts. HRT may go a long way towards passing for a teen, but it doesn't render an XY body the same as an XX one. There's still going to be a height, build, and organ difference in most cases. Males have larger hearts and lungs and breathe more often. This isn't hormone dependent. Female bodies have much smaller lung capacity for one. Men do run faster.

Literally everything you mentioned has something to do with hormones that we are exposed to. The XX and XY is relevant because based on these genetics our bodies produce different levels of hormones. Humans are lucky that sexual dimorphism isn't as obvious as other animals. Larger rib cage, heart, muscles (that allow you to run fast), etc. are all caused by testosterone. If I was given HRT at a young age do you really think I would look anything like it is I do today? (Not that you know what I look like of course). Shoulders (the whole skeletal system), our organs and even our minds are affected by hormones. Proper intervention will change the characteristics of everything you mentioned.

As far as transitioning later in life (post puberty) no there is still not an advantage for either trans men or women. As another poster noted, if the trans woman has a larger "frame" as some (though certainly not all) do they are actually at a disadvantage relative to other athletes. They no longer have the muscles to support their frame. The studies done by the international olympic committee and the NCAA explicitly take this into account (I believe they even mention the myth of advantage of transwoman in women sport) in their findings. The decisions these policy makers have to take must be based on irrefutable, peer reviewed scientific literature otherwise they absolutely cannot come to any sound or logical conclusion that won't get torn apart by the world of academia. They found absolutely NO advantage attributable to trans people in sport.

Now, if you believe that a non hrt trans woman has an advantage in sport I will agree with you. Or if she has only been on HRT for a limited amount of time. 

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 27, 2014, 04:08:28 PM

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 03:57:40 PM
That's fine. I haven't seen the study in question. However, there are other physical differences beyond HRT. For example, do you think a 6 ft, broad shouldered trans woman on HRT doesn't still have a physical advantage over most cis women? The differences between XY and XX bodies aren't all hormone related. And true, this might be different once most trans girls are transitioning before puberty. But most 15 year old boys already tower over and outplay their female counterparts. HRT may go a long way towards passing for a teen, but it doesn't render an XY body the same as an XX one. There's still going to be a height, build, and organ difference in most cases. Males have larger hearts and lungs and breathe more often. This isn't hormone dependent. Female bodies have much smaller lung capacity for one. Men do run faster.

But aren't many of those differences themselves the result of hormonal differences that come up during puberty?  So if a very young transitioner starts HRT, they would not have those advantages?  Or a person who is hormonally deficient might not develop them in the first place?  What of the disadvantage created by actually having LESS testosterone in a trans* woman's system than in a ciswoman's system.  Might that not cancel out any advantage?  Does HRT change any of those advantages (I.e., reducing lung volume or heart capacity, for example?).  What about trans* men who want to play sports?  Should they be required to play in women's teams even though their systems are full of T?

I really don't know what the right outcome here is.  I'm just trying to point out that this is complicated!

It is complicated! And I'm not claiming to know the answers. I do think most trans men would be at a disadvantage in men's sports. I think the lack of outcry there compared to trans women on girls' team speaks volumes. Trans men are more likely to be disadvantaged against other men. As a rule, anyway. I know the focus here is on high school kids - but when I was in high school, most boys already towered over and outplayed girls. And most girls are done with the bulk of growth heightwise at around 13 or so. At 15 (which is either first or second year of high school in the US depending), most guys were well into puberty at my school and towering over girls. So, we're really talking very young kids that early intervention would change things. I doubt I would have gotten much taller had I had T at 15.
I know there are anomalies. I was stronger than most girls in my teens due partly to bone structure.

This is a bit off topic, but there have been a few 'is it okay for me to hit a woman now' queries on here over the years. And I guess the idea was that since a trans woman is a woman and on HRT, she is the same physically as cis women. Taking estrogen doesn't make someone physically the same as a cis woman. Chivalry isn't the only reason it's taboo for men to hit women. Not only are women smaller on average, they also bruise easier, and they lack the facial structure men have, particularly around the eyes. I worked with a woman who had her eye taken out with one punch by her boyfriend. Removal of T may diminish strength, but it doesn't make one smaller and reduce bone structure. And the jury's out on how much it changes the skin.

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 04:43:18 PM
It is complicated! And I'm not claiming to know the answers. I do think most trans men would be at a disadvantage in men's sports. I think the lack of outcry there compared to trans women on girls' team speaks volumes. Trans men are more likely to be disadvantaged against other men. As a rule, anyway. I know the focus here is on high school kids - but when I was in high school, most boys already towered over and outplayed girls. And most girls are done with the bulk of growth heightwise at around 13 or so. At 15 (which is either first or second year of high school in the US depending), most guys were well into puberty at my school and towering over girls. So, we're really talking very young kids that early intervention would change things. I doubt I would have gotten much taller had I had T at 15.
I know there are anomalies. I was stronger than most girls in my teens due partly to bone structure.

I think a part of the outcry also has to do with apathy/unawareness of transmen.  We see this all the time.  The general public, and most people who are not at least somewhat knowledgeable about trans* issues, thinks of transgender people as "men who want to be women."  The reverse is never even considered.  So although transmen are out there, and there actually have been issues with transmen as athletes, their issues are really never considered.  But if what you are saying is correct, then wouldn't transmen participating in men's team face serious safety concerns that also need addressing?

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 04:43:18 PM
This is a bit off topic, but there have been a few 'is it okay for me to hit a woman now' queries on here over the years. And I guess the idea was that since a trans woman is a woman and on HRT, she is the same physically as cis women. Taking estrogen doesn't make someone physically the same as a cis woman. Chivalry isn't the only reason it's taboo for men to hit women. Not only are women smaller on average, they also bruise easier, and they lack the facial structure men have, particularly around the eyes. I worked with a woman who had her eye taken out with one punch by her boyfriend. Removal of T may diminish strength, but it doesn't make one smaller and reduce bone structure. And the jury's out on how much it changes the skin.

I would think the answer should be "no."  It's not okay to hit anyone, male, female, or other.  Because it's not nice to hit people! 

But yes I agree that women are basically not as well armored as men on average. 

Sure, why not? I also believe politicians should be made to have a labotomy before taking up office and anyone involved in the hierarchy of religious organizations be castrated..... 

Why are cis people so eager to slice up our lower regions? We don't go around demanding that they slice up theirs?

Quote from: missy1992 on February 27, 2014, 04:15:27 PM

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 03:57:40 PM
In what way?

In implying that women are incapable of doing certain things. Sports were gender segregated initially to empower women. Although I do not think that any sane human being can come out and say that women and men should play, for example, full contact sports in every situation, exceptions should be made. For example, a woman tried out as a field goal kicker for an NFL football team last season. Do you not think a woman is capable of playing goalkeeper for a hockey team? Should boys not be allowed to participate in synchronized swimming? Like gender segregated washrooms gender segregation in sports is well meaning though ultimately fails at protecting all participants. It is my sincerest belief that we will one day pass this.

Well sports in general have definitely been biased against women. I don't begrudge any woman who is good enough to make a men's team her spot. But the goal kicker you're talking about is an anomaly. On average, men are stronger, run faster, etc, etc, than women. Thus, pitting a women's team against a men's in most sports would be unfair. I mean, if we just dispensed with the segregation, what would happen? My guess is teams with mostly guys would have an unfair advantage. And sooner or later, more guys would be picked than girls anyway. Sure, a few exceptional girls would make it, but an average team with mostly guys would outplay an average team with mostly girls. I mean even if a basketball team has the rare 6ft girl, she's a total anomaly. And the boys' team has a much larger pool of height advantaged players to choose from.

Quote from: FA on February 27, 2014, 03:57:40 PM
That's fine. I haven't seen the study in question. However, there are other physical differences beyond HRT. For example, do you think a 6 ft, broad shouldered trans woman on HRT doesn't still have a physical advantage over most cis women? The differences between XY and XX bodies aren't all hormone related. And true, this might be different once most trans girls are transitioning before puberty. But most 15 year old boys already tower over and outplay their female counterparts. HRT may go a long way towards passing for a teen, but it doesn't render an XY body the same as an XX one. There's still going to be a height, build, and organ difference in most cases. Males have larger hearts and lungs and breathe more often. This isn't hormone dependent. Female bodies have much smaller lung capacity for one. Men do run faster.

Literally everything you mentioned has something to do with hormones that we are exposed to. The XX and XY is relevant because based on these genetics our bodies produce different levels of hormones. Humans are lucky that sexual dimorphism isn't as obvious as other animals. Larger rib cage, heart, muscles (that allow you to run fast), etc. are all caused by testosterone. If I was given HRT at a young age do you really think I would look anything like it is I do today? (Not that you know what I look like of course). Shoulders (the whole skeletal system), our organs and even our minds are affected by hormones. Proper intervention will change the characteristics of everything you mentioned.

As far as transitioning later in life (post puberty) no there is still not an advantage for either trans men or women. As another poster noted, if the trans woman has a larger "frame" as some (though certainly not all) do they are actually at a disadvantage relative to other athletes. They no longer have the muscles to support their frame. The studies done by the international olympic committee and the NCAA explicitly take this into account (I believe they even mention the myth of advantage of transwoman in women sport) in their findings. The decisions these policy makers have to take must be based on irrefutable, peer reviewed scientific literature otherwise they absolutely cannot come to any sound or logical conclusion that won't get torn apart by the world of academia. They found absolutely NO advantage attributable to trans people in sport.

Now, if you believe that a non hrt trans woman has an advantage in sport I will agree with you. Or if she has only been on HRT for a limited amount of time.
[/quote]

Well, like I said, I haven't seen the studies. However, as I'm sure you're aware, studies can be biased. I don't think most of the public would deny that men have a physical advantage over women. Has there been a study of an average XY person being basically rendered as an XX person by HRT? I know everyone is talking about young people, but we are talking high schoolers and I highly doubt your average XY 16 year old would suddenly be rendered the same as his XX girlfriend because he took E. I know it's the fashion to tell young trans women they'll have great results if they're in their teens. However, my 16 year old best male friend was not just going to 'turn into Me' if he took E. A lot of sex differentiation has already taken place by high school.

Mandatory SRS: No.
Some threshold level needed to meet the definition of trans-athlete: Yes.

I will say that even after SRS and over 4 years of HRT and as a former HS/College athlete and current triathlete... I'm still way stronger, faster, and have much longer endurance than any cis-female my age... or even a few years younger. So, it depends on a case to case basis. But IMHE it can be an unfair advantage regardless of SRS, HRT, or not.