Quote from: mandonlym on March 07, 2014, 04:50:40 PM
This is simply and factually inaccurate. I work with indigenous groups in Southeast Asia and there's a crapload of evidence that women did not cover up in these and many other areas (Latin America, Africa, etc.) prior to colonial contact. If you're going to make that kind of unequivocal statement at least do some basic research.

Okay, I'm back in. Please cite. A crapload of evidence isn't exactly scientific. But, I'll start: here's just a basic Google search that proves the bra is at least 600 years old. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/18/ancient-bra-middle-ages-austria_n_1683029.html

I realize different cultures have different norms but isolated small groups of humans don't prove anything. But why can't I just have an opinion without having to prove things. But, that's the last ill say. I believe 600 years of the bra, proves my statement that it is more than a couple centuries of patriarchy. And I'm def not getting into the colonial argument. I have very serious first world problems. I 'm on foodstamps, have an obamaphone, can't even afford laser, I',m intersex (which guess what isn't as fun as it sounds when I was three I wasn't allowed to move or my hips would break, literally). So I simply don't care.

But I have no need to be in this argument so I would appreicate it if I am just left out and you forget anything I have said. I simply think you shouldn't walk around naked...unless men can too. I wanna see some penises lol

I realize I'm being a bitch but I just lost the love of my life and am isolated in a tiny little room and never talk to anyone. Okay, I did hang out with him for the days this week but its left me even more torn up inside. So maybe a little compassion could go a long way and just let me make inaccurate statements. Who cares? I've been pretty open about this but if you didn't know I apologize but please take that into consideration. I won't delete my posts cause that messes up the thread but...that's it. Thanks.

Hi Joanna,

Sorry about your love loss. Been there.

Hugs,
Kim

Really sorry to hear about your love troubles. I somehow missed the fact that you're having a hard time right now. Big hugs from here.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 03:24:49 PM
Well breasts are a secondary sexual charcteristic. I don't see this is as a male privilege issue at all. men can walk around topless because their chests are not a secondary sexual characteristic

beards are a secondary sex characteristic.  Are you suggesting that men should wear veils?

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 05:42:40 PM
Okay, I'm back in. Please cite. A crapload of evidence isn't exactly scientific. But, I'll start: here's just a basic Google search that proves the bra is at least 600 years old. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/18/ancient-bra-middle-ages-austria_n_1683029.html

I realize different cultures have different norms but isolated small groups of humans don't prove anything. But why can't I just have an opinion without having to prove things. But, that's the last ill say. I believe 600 years of the bra, proves my statement that it is more than a couple centuries of patriarchy.

Recognizable humans have been around for 2.2 million years. Modern homo sapiens has been around for about 250,000 years. Compared to this, 600 years is nothing.

DELETED. But thanks mandolym and Kim.

I will be gone from this site for awhile, maybe forever, but to the people that were really nice, I love you. Even though I may have never met you, I love you and I hope you can understand that love know no bounds through cyberspace or even death. To the bullies on this site, congratulations, I am gone. You win. I'm a sensitive person and I don't need this macho argumentative bullying. If I wanted that I'd go back to HS. That's about as mean as I get. I loved this site but I don't need this. I may be broken hearted but I'll find another BF and I will still be me. the bullies here will always be that: mean spirited, hateful corrosive bullies. I won't delete my account cause maybe i'll change my mind. But really, who needs this crap? Almost every long-term MTF who had something to offer was run off in the last couple months. So congrats, some of you ruined what was a beautiful thing. How sad?

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 11:10:59 PM
Thanks Kim and mandolym. But, to Oriah and ath, what part of please leave me alone I'm broken hearted and BREAKING DOWN was hard to understand. yes, your allowed to say whatever. But last time I checked this was a support site and I politely asked to just forget what i said. I DONT CARE. The outright bullying on this site is unbelievable. No wonder all the good posters are being run off. Well, I've been on HRT for awhile and have a lot to offer, but maybe I'll just leave. I could say more, but i'm not a bully and get no joy in hurting the knocked down and broken people. BYE

Whoa calm down, it's my fault for not reading your entire post. I saw the first bit with the link and just responded to that.

I was stating a fact, not trying to mock or insult you. I'm sorry for getting you upset.

I shall convene the Council of Bullies and discuss discontinuing our evil plot to drive off all of the long term users of the site. (lol)

I've never felt or wanted to walk around with out a shirt on (still looking like a guy here) - I never understand why guys think they should anyway...

Honestly the whole reason we invented clothing was to protect our bodies from the elements ect. That being said I think there are areas were it is fine to be in your birthday suit and there are areas that it shouldn't. I also don't think guys should be topless unless they are at the beach or in private - honestly I can't stand guys who do it even if they are well fit just to show off. 

As for being topless in front of your family - just think of it this way being sympathetic towards there feelings, would you like to see your mom walking around topless or your dad walking around with out pants?

The only thing I can say about mothers breast feeding in public is they gotta do what they gotta do to keep their little one happy and feed - but this doesn't mean the shouldn't try to cover up if they do it in public as I said before to think of others feelings and try not to cause discomfort to others.

Quote from: Aina on March 08, 2014, 12:26:28 AM
The only thing I can say about mothers breast feeding in public is they gotta do what they gotta do to keep their little one happy and feed - but this doesn't mean the shouldn't try to cover up if they do it in public as I said before to think of others feelings and try not to cause discomfort to others.

It's useful to keep in mind that there's also the comfort of the baby, which I believe is a greater priority than the comfort of onlookers.

Quote from: mandonlym on March 08, 2014, 07:55:04 AM
It's useful to keep in mind that there's also the comfort of the baby, which I believe is a greater priority than the comfort of onlookers.

It's unfortunate that we get up in arms over breast feeding yet do nothing about all the lingerie ads in malls. Honestly I think breast feeding is beautiful and I've never had a problem with it at all honestly.

Quote from: Riley Skye on March 08, 2014, 09:13:51 AM
It's unfortunate that we get up in arms over breast feeding yet do nothing about all the lingerie ads in malls. Honestly I think breast feeding is beautiful and I've never had a problem with it at all honestly.

Where do you live Riley? I wanna hang out with you.

According to my profile Long Island NY lol. I've always been a feminist, even before I knew what that and sexism was. I actually always hated Disney Princesses when I was a kid and questioned a lot of gender norms until I began being bullied.

Well if you're up for making it into Manhattan next weekend we can *totally* hang out. Wanna take a trip to Sephora or the Barney's makeup counter? Feminists can wear lip gloss too!

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 11:10:59 PM
DELETED. But thanks mandolym and Kim.

I will be gone from this site for awhile, maybe forever, but to the people that were really nice, I love you. Even though I may have never met you, I love you and I hope you can understand that love know no bounds through cyberspace or even death. To the bullies on this site, congratulations, I am gone. You win. I'm a sensitive person and I don't need this macho argumentative bullying. If I wanted that I'd go back to HS. That's about as mean as I get. I loved this site but I don't need this. I may be broken hearted but I'll find another BF and I will still be me. the bullies here will always be that: mean spirited, hateful corrosive bullies. I won't delete my account cause maybe i'll change my mind. But really, who needs this crap? Almost every long-term MTF who had something to offer was run off in the last couple months. So congrats, some of you ruined what was a beautiful thing. How sad?

well, Joanna I hope you come back. As far as I'm aware everyone has the right to their own opinion unless you live in the society that George Orwell wrote about in 1984. Sorry to see you leave you had a unique  approach to your critique. Hurry back

Quote from: mandonlym on March 08, 2014, 07:55:04 AM
It's useful to keep in mind that there's also the comfort of the baby, which I believe is a greater priority than the comfort of onlookers.

I don't disagree. I am fine with it, but others might not be and well that is life. Honestly "I" would cover up but again I am rather modest about showing off my body so...yeah each to there own.

 As far as I've ever seen woman are pretty careful about not having other people view what their doing. For me though there is a major difference between feed a human child and walking in a public street flaunting the naked surface area of your body. It's true most of human existence has been in the naked form , but sensibilities have changed the past few thousand years. If you want to burn your bras  and take your tops off and walk down the avenue it's your choice . You have the right at least in some countries to vote to change the laws on public decency .

I can see both sides of this. The sexualization of breasts has gotten ridiculous and I think it would calm down if they weren't hidden all the time. But they are different from a male chest.

Quote from: Ms Grace on March 07, 2014, 04:49:39 PM

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 07, 2014, 04:28:39 PM
I just wonder how many want men walking around with their penises swaying about. if women should be allowed topless then it's only fair for me to see some penis.

I always find this statement to be peculiar - penis=genital; breasts aren't genitals.

At first blush, it seems odd, but I kinda see them as analogous. The breasts and the penis both 'stick out' on the body and are a huge focal points. They also both change and grow during puberty which the vagina and male chest don't really do to a noticeable point. A woman's genitals are kinda hidden even if she's standing nude.
And breasts and penises seem analogous from a trans standpoint too. Ftms seem to have the same focus and dysphoria surrounding binding, and top surgery as mtfs do on tucking and SRS. There seem to be more ftms focused on top than bottom surgery (and I don't think bottom surgery results and pricing account for all of it).  I think anything that sticks out that you have to try to hide from view probably causes a different kind of dysphoria. And also that these parts grow a lot during puberty and so much emphasis is placed on them.

Side note: Joanna, I hope you stick around. It's okay to express different opinions, hon. Don't feel bad.

Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 11:32:57 AM
I can see both sides of this. The sexualization of breasts has gotten ridiculous and I think it would calm down if they weren't hidden all the time. But they are different from a male chest.
I always find this statement to be peculiar - penis=genital; breasts aren't genitals.


At first blush, it seems odd, but I kinda see them as analogous. The breasts and the penis both 'stick out' on the body and are a huge focal points. They also both change and grow during puberty which the vagina and male chest don't really do to a noticeable point. A woman's genitals are kinda hidden even if she's standing nude.
And breasts and penises seem analogous from a trans standpoint too. Ftms seem to have the same focus and dysphoria surrounding binding, and top surgery as mtfs do on tucking and SRS. There seem to be more ftms focused on top than bottom surgery (and I don't think bottom surgery results and pricing account for all of it).  I think anything that sticks out that you have to try to hide from view probably causes a different kind of dysphoria. And also that these parts grow a lot during puberty and so much emphasis is placed on them.

Side note: Joanna, I hope you stick around. It's okay to express different opinions, hon. Don't feel bad.

I think your point of view is quite correct

Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 11:32:57 AM
I can see both sides of this. The sexualization of breasts has gotten ridiculous and I think it would calm down if they weren't hidden all the time. But they are different from a male chest.
I always find this statement to be peculiar - penis=genital; breasts aren't genitals.


At first blush, it seems odd, but I kinda see them as analogous. The breasts and the penis both 'stick out' on the body and are a huge focal points. They also both change and grow during puberty which the vagina and male chest don't really do to a noticeable point. A woman's genitals are kinda hidden even if she's standing nude.
And breasts and penises seem analogous from a trans standpoint too. Ftms seem to have the same focus and dysphoria surrounding binding, and top surgery as mtfs do on tucking and SRS. There seem to be more ftms focused on top than bottom surgery (and I don't think bottom surgery results and pricing account for all of it).  I think anything that sticks out that you have to try to hide from view probably causes a different kind of dysphoria. And also that these parts grow a lot during puberty and so much emphasis is placed on them.

Side note: Joanna, I hope you stick around. It's okay to express different opinions, hon. Don't feel bad.

I can definitely see that because they are the biggest hallmarks of physical sex and gender for cis people. I do understand covering up you body but I just never saw the reason why we have such adversity to nudity. I myself am guilty of it because how I've been raised. I wouldn't feel comfortable around naked people and tbh I have no real clue why.

It's upbringing. It's not that I prefer being nude but I have no qualms about being naked anywhere.