Yeah. I think maybe what ends up being the problem with the phrase "man up" (aside from the obvious problem of no one ever says "woman up") is that different people use it in different ways and many people have history with it being used in a hurtful way.

Quote from: Brandon on March 07, 2014, 03:54:36 PM
Wheather you like it or not if your a man you have to handle your buisness like one.

But women aren't expected to handle their business? This is part of the problem with why women aren't respected. There isn't the same expectation on them to handle THEIR business just as any other adult, man or woman. Men are supposed to "handle business" for everyone. I think we're all supposed to step up once we're adults. Maybe the expression "grow up" is better because it isn't gendered.

Quote from: Edge on March 08, 2014, 07:48:25 AM
In a similar vein, can we never say "A real man is ___" or anything like that?

You saw my diagram in the OP, right?

Quote from: dalebert on March 08, 2014, 10:41:34 AM
Maybe the expression "grow up" is better because it isn't gendered.

The problem with "grow up" is it is still demeaning. Then again, if you're saying that to someone, the point usually is to be demeaning.

Quote from: dalebert on March 08, 2014, 10:41:34 AMYou saw my diagram in the OP, right?

Oh right. I like that diagram.

Quote from: dalebert on March 08, 2014, 10:41:34 AM
But women aren't expected to handle their business? This is part of the problem with why women aren't respected. There isn't the same expectation on them to handle THEIR business just as any other adult, man or woman. Men are supposed to "handle business" for everyone. I think we're all supposed to step up once we're adults. Maybe the expression "grow up" is better because it isn't gendered.

You saw my diagram in the OP, right?

Thats why I said if your a man handle your buisness like one otherwise I would of said handle your buisness like a woman if your a woman.

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 11:30:18 AM

Thats why I said if your a man handle your buisness like one otherwise I would of said handle your buisness like a woman if your a woman.

And what I was saying is that by saying that, you are implying that there is a gendered way to handle business.  There's isn't.  Yes, society seems to favor the idea that there is, and that's the issue at hand here.

Sorry to intrude here, but I have a lot of disdain for that phrase.  Growing up as a "boy", that phrase would often get thrown my way, usually by my dad.  It always hurt me and made me feel like a bad person because I couldn't be what others expected me to be, especially family.  Now, it's obvious why this phrase would be hurtful to a transwoman during her upbringing, but I feel like it can equally hurt men.  It's diminishing their masculinity and treating them like they are lesser in some way.  That's not a nice thing to do.  Sure, people can joke around and say it, but it seems like that phrase is often said with disgust and hostility or it's used in the spirit of criticizing/reprimanding.  That's why I don't care for it.

How are you intruding?  You are a Susan's member, right?  Which means you're not intruding when you make a post somewhere.  I don't understand this mentality that men wouldn't want a woman's opinion or vice versa

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 08:37:26 AM

Yes because I've pretty much learned all that from my father, Yes I know how to change a tire, Yes I'm good with my hands, Yes I know how to use a grill,  Yes I can hold up a Job may not be that tall but I am muscular, And I can't even cry or else ill get called th B word or P word that's why I hold stuff in because men arent taught to cry and yes to the last part.

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 09:17:37 AM
And I am a guy so why wouldn't I know the expectations of being a man thats stupid I'm treated the exact same way.

I know men who don't act in the way that you seem to think that a man should act.  These are cis men.  Does that mean that they're actually just closeted trans women?  No, it just means that they know that they don't have to be able to change tires and be constantly macho to be men.  Is a man with muscular atrophy not a man because they're not muscular?  Is a male artist not a man because they'd prefer to practice their painting than build motorbikes?  Is a man with poor hand-eye co-ordination not a man because they're not good with their hands?

You don't have to act a certain way to be a man.  The requirement of being a man is to have an innate sense that you're a man.

I live and work in a very male dominated, macho environment, railway engineering.  Even here I see a whole variety of different men, but not one that isn't a man because of their skills, body or hobbies.

Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 08, 2014, 11:43:50 AM
And what I was saying is that by saying that, you are implying that there is a gendered way to handle business.  There's isn't.  Yes, society seems to favor the idea that there is, and that's the issue at hand here.

In some cases there is, For an ex: men are suppose to be the providers not women trans or not.

Quote from: lxndr on March 08, 2014, 12:52:31 PM
I know men who don't act in the way that you seem to think that a man should act.  These are cis men.  Does that mean that they're actually just closeted trans women?  No, it just means that they know that they don't have to be able to change tires and be constantly macho to be men.  Is a man with muscular atrophy not a man because they're not muscular?  Is a male artist not a man because they'd prefer to practice their painting than build motorbikes?  Is a man with poor hand-eye co-ordination not a man because they're not good with their hands?

You don't have to act a certain way to be a man.  The requirement of being a man is to have an innate sense that you're a man.

I live and work in a very male dominated, macho environment, railway engineering.  Even here I see a whole variety of different men, but not one that isn't a man because of their skills, body or hobbies.

Well I'm sorry but I do believe there is a certain way a man is suppose to act but I am ok with the fact that not everyone fits that role as I am not a judgemental person.

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 12:57:08 PM

In some cases there is, For an ex: men are suppose to be the providers not women trans or not.

False

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 12:59:33 PM

Well I'm sorry but I do believe there is a certain way a man is suppose to act but I am ok with the fact that not everyone fits that role as I am not a judgemental person.

Sexist and seemingly proud of it but claiming to not be a judgemental person....hmmmm

You can't just say sorry and claim to not be a judgemental person and then say something offensive and judgemental and it's all okay.

i don't think a man has to provide...my mom was a single mom and provided...my old man was long gone...far as i'm concerned your a man long as your there for your family, whether your the bread winner or not

Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 08, 2014, 01:03:21 PM
Sexist and seemingly proud of it but claiming to not be a judgemental person....hmmmm

I am not sexist or judgemental you just get offended by anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Quote from: Ryan55 on March 08, 2014, 01:10:06 PM
i don't think a man has to provide...my mom was a single mom and provided...my old man was long gone...far as i'm concerned your a man long as your there for your family, whether your the bread winner or not

No I meant when both of your parents are in the house as a man were suppose to provide for our wives. If your straight

Woah guys... not everyone has to be a free spirit on conforming or not conforming to societal norms of what is deemed as "acting like a man" or not.  (just so it can be noted I have a preference in non-gender conforming friends and acquaintances.  I do not believe people have to "act like a man" to be a man.  To me its like saying "act your age" I hated that when I was a kid because I was acting my age because I was the age I was when I was acting that way.  If you are a man anything you do is "acting like a man" but thats just my personal beliefs on that matter)

He (Brandon) does not seem to be trying to say that someone who doesn't "act like a man" according to societal norms is not a man.  He is just trying to say that there are certainly parameters of "manliness" that society expects of men.  He is someone who is trying to live up to those traits, and is okay with them being there.  He has clearly said that he is cool with men who do not "act like men" according to these standards.  He may be rigid minded and seemingly a couple decades behind the world when it comes to these societal expectations (which I imagine may loosen with time), but he is not being judgmental by saying how he feels on this issue. 

If he said "if you don't prescribe to the definition of manliness that I hold to be true for myself that you are not deserving of the title of 'man'" then yea.. He'd be a big douche, but that is not what is happening here.  You guys are getting really super offended when he is really not trying to insult you personally at all. 

(though he may need a little help here and there on the subject of diplomatic wording.)

To all the guys here that haven't been told this or have no issue with it, consider there is a man that identifies as such, but is constantly bullied because he is freer with himself.  Maybe he is gay or a little feminine or something.  In any case, he is a man and proud of it.  Imagine he gets bullied all the time for not being the ideal male and told he needs to man up.  How does that make you feel?  Wouldn't you feel bad for him?  Isn't that wrong for someone to belittle his gender identity just because he doesn't fit the standard?  I think everyone of us should appreciate the diversity of gender expression given our own situations.  Everyone should be free to be themselves without judgement or hate as long as they don't harm another person.  Just my take. 

Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 08, 2014, 12:22:47 PM
How are you intruding?  You are a Susan's member, right?  Which means you're not intruding when you make a post somewhere.  I don't understand this mentality that men wouldn't want a woman's opinion or vice versa

Well, I don't have the same experience that men have, so I'm not always really the best person to chime in here.  Sometimes I do because of my upbringing and in the case of being told "man up" that applies. I agree, though, that we should be able to interact with each other as much as possible.   

Quote from: GnomeKid on March 08, 2014, 01:22:51 PM
Woah guys... not everyone has to be a free spirit on conforming or not conforming to societal norms of what is deemed as "acting like a man" or not.  (just so it can be noted I have a preference in non-gender conforming friends and acquaintances.  I do not believe people have to "act like a man" to be a man.  To me its like saying "act your age" I hated that when I was a kid because I was acting my age because I was the age I was when I was acting that way.  If you are a man anything you do is "acting like a man" but thats just my personal beliefs on that matter)

He (Brandon) does not seem to be trying to say that someone who doesn't "act like a man" according to societal norms is not a man.  He is just trying to say that there are certainly parameters of "manliness" that society expects of men.  He is someone who is trying to live up to those traits, and is okay with them being there.  He has clearly said that he is cool with men who do not "act like men" according to these standards.  He may be rigid minded and seemingly a couple decades behind the world when it comes to these societal expectations (which I imagine may loosen with time), but he is not being judgmental by saying how he feels on this issue. 

If he said "if you don't prescribe to the definition of manliness that I hold to be true for myself that you are not deserving of the title of 'man'" then yea.. He'd be a big douche, but that is not what is happening here.  You guys are getting really super offended when he is really not trying to insult you personally at all. 

(though he may need a little help here and there on the subject of diplomatic wording.)

Exactly I wasn't trying to be insulting at all.

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 08:37:26 AM

Yes because I've pretty much learned all that from my father, Yes I know how to change a tire, Yes I'm good with my hands, Yes I know how to use a grill,  Yes I can hold up a Job may not be that tall but I am muscular, And I can't even cry or else ill get called th B word or P word that's why I hold stuff in because men arent taught to cry and yes to the last part.

I've got a harsh reality for you, by societal standards you don't fit the stereotypes of a man. Tons of women can change do all of the things a man can...but they're not expected of them.
People on here want to always be nice to you and understanding but they need to give you the cold hard truth: you're not as manly as you think you are! You're certainly not muscular in a manly way. You have the body of a female--rounded shoulders, breast, a hairless face, small hands. You identify as male, you are transitioning to become the way you feel inside, but right now you aren't a male in society.  Sorry if that hurts some feelings but this kid needs to hear the truth.

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 09:17:37 AM

And I am a guy so why wouldn't I know the expectations of being a man thats stupid I'm treated the exact same way.

Brandon, you weren't raised as a boy to become a man. You can say whatever you want but you've never been treated the exact same way and you will never know what it's like to grow up having the same experiences that a boy does. Again, sorry, but when your parents stamped 'Female' on your birth certificate thats the way they raised you. You've said on here before that your family is unsupportive.

You know what's a sure sign of a man? A sure sign of an adult? Taking responsibilty and owning up to ones own faults.