Quote from: timbuck2 on March 08, 2014, 02:10:55 PM
I've got a harsh reality for you, by societal standards you don't fit the stereotypes of a man. Tons of women can change do all of the things a man can...but they're not expected of them.
People on here want to always be nice to you and understanding but they need to give you the cold hard truth: you're not as manly as you think you are! You're certainly not muscular in a manly way. You have the body of a female--rounded shoulders, breast, a hairless face, small hands. You identify as male, you are transitioning to become the way you feel inside, but right now you aren't a male in society.  Sorry if that hurts some feelings but this kid needs to hear the truth.


Brandon, you weren't raised as a boy to become a man. You can say whatever you want but you've never been treated the exact same way and you will never know what it's like to grow up having the same experiences that a boy does. Again, sorry, but when your parents stamped 'Female' on your birth certificate thats the way they raised you. You've said on here before that your family is unsupportive.

You know what's a sure sign of a man? A sure sign of an adult? Taking responsibilty and owning up to ones own faults.

Actually I'm very hairy and yes I have hair on my face yes I'm very built my chest is not that big nor is my face that damn round, My hands are not small nor are my feet have you met me in person no, And I was never forced to play the female role in my house I have alot more freedom my dad treats me exactly like his son so you sound real dumb and yes I am treated the exact same way you are not with me 24/7 enough to know this.

Sorry guys. This was a good topic, but the bickering has got to stop.

I don't think Brandon was trying to be offensive with his statement about men as the provider. If I went out and broached the subject around my neighborhood, most (male and female) would probably agree and maybe even start ranting on the subject. In fact, a very good friend of mine's wife just took their son and left him. Because he lost his job and has had no luck finding a replacement. She says he's not fulfilling his husbandly duty and she's taking their child overseas. A lot of people do feel this way, right or wrong. A lot of people grew up this way. I don't think it's right, but most people are raised this way.

So rather than jumping on Brandon or anyone who mentions that view, explaining the problems with that view might go a long way. Being trans doesn't mean we automatically shed the gender views and expectations we grew up with. It took me awhile and I'm still working on it.

Okay, I'm unlocking but I expect the conversation to be civil or penalties will be issued. We can have a disagreement without being nasty to each other.

Quote from: Edge on March 07, 2014, 07:58:43 PM
I don't feel anything necessarily positive or negative about it, but it does give me a strong urge to break out into song.

I have a new love for Mulan after coming out.

Quote from: Ryan55 on March 08, 2014, 01:10:06 PM
i don't think a man has to provide...my mom was a single mom and provided...my old man was long gone...far as i'm concerned your a man long as your there for your family, whether your the bread winner or not

Agreed! I was and still am raised by a single mother. My father is alive and well but he lives on the other side of the city and doesn't provide much. It's all been my mother buying me clothes, food and other things throughout my life.

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 01:20:39 PM

No I meant when both of your parents are in the house as a man were suppose to provide for our wives. If your straight

This is an expectation in western societies for sure. But I don't think it's a realistic one anymore. In the US right now it's so hard to have just one provider. I know my husband I couldn't make it on one income even when he had an excellent job at our university. Women haven't been forced into the role of housemaid for years, and I think that is much preferable. We will never get equality if we say that one gender is supposed to do XYZ.

I know a lot of women, regardless of their anatomy who are proud providers. There is nothing wrong with being a stay at home father while the wife works if she has a career she is invested in or loves. There is nothing wrong with both partners working to ensure the success of their family.

In other cultures, the women are the providers. It doesn't make the men any less men.

I'm not trying to argue at all. I'm simply pointing out that there isn't a "right way" to be a man. Just like there isn't a "right way" to be a woman. If there was, about every person I know is "wrong".

Quote from: learningtolive on March 08, 2014, 11:57:15 AM
Sorry to intrude here, but I have a lot of disdain for that phrase.  Growing up as a "boy", that phrase would often get thrown my way, usually by my dad.  It always hurt me and made me feel like a bad person because I couldn't be what others expected me to be, especially family.  Now, it's obvious why this phrase would be hurtful to a transwoman during her upbringing, but I feel like it can equally hurt men.  It's diminishing their masculinity and treating them like they are lesser in some way.  That's not a nice thing to do.  Sure, people can joke around and say it, but it seems like that phrase is often said with disgust and hostility or it's used in the spirit of criticizing/reprimanding.  That's why I don't care for it.

I don't actually think that as trans guys we were socialized with this issue. OTOH, it is in the culture, so to speak. And I see people told this on this forum--i.e. scared of injecting just "man up".

Obviously being told to "be a man" when you are a transwoman would be hurtful (but also to gay guys and guys who are, for lack of a better word, effeminate).

There is not a corresponding word for being socialized as girls. The term "be a lady" is a kind of superficial thing that a lot of us were stuck with. But usually has to do with appearance and manners and not with your essence as a person.

I feel the term "man up" or "be a man' is usually kind of violent-- "don't feel your feelings", "don't pay attention to what's in your head", "don't be sensitive", etc. I think it leads to violence against women and children and sometimes to self. It's generally a negative thing, and I  really am against using it, applying it to myself, or my brothers (I mean by that other trans guys).

I don't see any useful thing to it at all.


--Jay

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 12:57:08 PM

In some cases there is, For an ex: men are suppose to be the providers not women trans or not.

Okay....so what if there is only a single mother in the picture? Is she supposed to just "screw it" and not provide for her child?

Think about it, dude.

Quote from: aleon515 on March 08, 2014, 06:14:02 PM

There is not a corresponding word for being socialized as girls. The term "be a lady" is a kind of superficial thing that a lot of us were stuck with. But usually has to do with appearance and manners and not with your essence as a person.
--Jay

Thats interesting, Jay. If you don't mind my asking, where are from? I ask because "be a lady" was used a lot like "man up" in my house. I was told that for about everything. But, my family has southern belles, so it may be a regional thing. When I moved to Alaska it was a huge relief. Man or woman, we all wore bunny boots, carharts and looked like lumberjacks. There wasn't a real separation in how people dressed or acted, some just had smaller feet and bigger hips.

Quote from: Brandon on March 08, 2014, 12:57:08 PM

In some cases there is, For an ex: men are suppose to be the providers not women trans or not.

Actually, this has been a social model since pre-history.

When you consider that in Brandon's African-American community, over 70% of all births are out of wedlock, and fewer that 25% of households have an adult male in it, taking individual responsibility is something that should be encouraged.

Now, this is not to say women should not also be providers.  For a while, when the kids were young, I was the sole provider in the family.  It was a role for which I was socialized not that long ago.  It is still one that is pervasive within our society.  My wife and I worked, scrimped, saved, clothed, fed, and kept a roof over our family.  It is about accepting responsibility.

Is the male-provider model now dated?  I would say it is, but perhaps more out of necessity.  Not because it is sexist or misogynistic.

Edit:  Interesting article.  Check it out.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/06/20/the-5-switches-of-manliness-provide/

Quote from: Ayden on March 08, 2014, 08:45:29 PM
Thats interesting, Jay. If you don't mind my asking, where are from? I ask because "be a lady" was used a lot like "man up" in my house. I was told that for about everything. But, my family has southern belles, so it may be a regional thing. When I moved to Alaska it was a huge relief. Man or woman, we all wore bunny boots, carharts and looked like lumberjacks. There wasn't a real separation in how people dressed or acted, some just had smaller feet and bigger hips.

That's probably true. My mom was from the south, but I think she might have been upset a lot by the "be a lady" thing from her own childhood (I think she was abused, by our standards). I lived in the midwest. I was told that I wasn't sufficiently feminine, but it was not used in quite the same way that "man up" or "be a man" were.

@Jamie- I think the male provider model is probably way out of date, given both men and women provide for families where more often women "provide" at a higher rate than they used to. I put that in quotes, given that just because work might not be paid, doesn't mean it is worthless. Taking care of very young children, I don't need to remind people, is a taxing job.


--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on March 08, 2014, 09:42:20 PM
That's probably true. My mom was from the south, but I think she might have been upset a lot by the "be a lady" thing from her own childhood (I think she was abused, by our standards). I lived in the midwest. I was told that I wasn't sufficiently feminine, but it was not used in quite the same way that "man up" or "be a man" were.

@Jamie- I think the male provider model is probably way out of date, given both men and women provide for families where more often women "provide" at a higher rate than they used to. I put that in quotes, given that just because work might not be paid, doesn't mean it is worthless. Taking care of very young children, I don't need to remind people, is a taxing job.


--Jay

Jay: thanks for sharing. I spent very little time in the Midwest but I get the impression that its more relaxed as far as gender norms than the south. My mother was the same in that she didnt like the phrase "be a lady". I was raised partly by my grandparents when I was really young and I know that it was an abusive comment to a lot of young girls.

Jamie: I think you make an interesting point, but I also agree with Jay here.

For me I think the world has moved past the hunter/gather, mans world mindset. Women have always had work but now it is becoming more common that they work outside the home as well as receive payment for the work they do. It is becoming necessary for both parents to work.  It's nice when one parent can be home with young kids, but it isn't always realistic nowadays.

Economically it is hard for families and for countries, frankly. Here in Japan 60% of women, 40% of whom have college education, are housewives. It's one of the things that has put Japan in tough economic times. I'm not saying that it's their fault, but the idea of man being the provider has damaged a lot of families here. I have students who don't even know their fathers because they work 14 hour days. Different groups of people have different challenges of course, but how does it help any family anywhere to put all the pressure on one person because they are a man?

Outside of economics, a lot of women I know want the freedom of being the provider. For years, man being the provider was used to keep women in "their place". I was told to marry a man and let him support me, like a lot of girls my age. It always seemed backwards to me. A lot of my female friends older and younger hated the idea of being provided for when they were perfectly able to do the same for themselves and their families.

I'm not attacking, please don't misunderstand. This is an issue with a lot of gray and no black and white. It's more an exercise in thinking for me. I don't get to dissect these ideas outside of Susan's or with my husband.

Speaking of men and women's roles, someone once told me that raising kids required more emotion and not much logic and physical strength. Hopefully, why such a statement is ludicrous is obvious.

Quote from: learningtolive on March 08, 2014, 01:35:31 PM
To all the guys here that haven't been told this or have no issue with it, consider there is a man that identifies as such, but is constantly bullied because he is freer with himself. Maybe he is gay or a little feminine or something. In any case, he is a man and proud of it. Imagine he gets bullied all the time for not being the ideal male and told he needs to man up. How does that make you feel?  Wouldn't you feel bad for him? Isn't that wrong for someone to belittle his gender identity just because he doesn't fit the standard? I think everyone of us should appreciate the diversity of gender expression given our own situations. Everyone should be free to be themselves without judgement or hate as long as they don't harm another person. Just my take.

I can only speak for myself. I have no issue with "be a man" because I have trouble taking it seriously.
However, phrases like "man up" and "grow up" bother me because they suggest that the person is deficient in some way. "Be a man" tells a guy to be what he already is. "Man up" and "grow up" tells a person that they aren't already.
Ironically, I usually hear about how "real men" aren't like me from people who say it's ok to be effeminate and who expect me to be pleased when they tell me "real men" don't have some of the stereotypically masculine traits I have.

I don't disagree with either you or Jay.  Times are changing.

I just felt the Brandon's post needed the proper context.  The smites were excessive, IMHO.  Brandon, coming from a single parent household, is well aware that women are providers in every sense of the word.

The idea that men in his community need to step up to the plate is topical and important.  Take a listen sometime to what Bill Cosby has to say on the point.

Quote from: Jamie D on March 08, 2014, 11:45:03 PM
I don't disagree with either you or Jay.  Times are changing.

I just felt the Brandon's post needed the proper context.  The smites were excessive, IMHO.  Brandon, coming from a single parent household, is well aware that women are providers in every sense of the word.

The idea that men in his community need to step up to the plate is topical and important.  Take a listen sometime to what Bill Cosby has to say on the point.

Thanks for clarifying. I think I misunderstood because I hadn't read all of Brandon's posts. As a history guy I should know better than to research before I comment!


Bill Cosby is a very good role model I think. I am a fan and I think he has a lot to contribute. The black community has a lot of difficulty that I can only imagine.

Personally, I am going to use the phrase "man up" and other related phrases in my life and I don't mind if those phrases are used on me because I find them motivating.  If I tell someone that and they get offended then I won't say that to them again out of respect.  In my opinion, I think it comes down to just gauging the situation and the people involved.

On another note, I too think that men should be the providers of the home. Go ahead call me sexist and misogynistic.   
However, I do realize that in this economy, having the man being the sole provider would almost be impossible, and then there are single mothers, but in an ideal situation, I believe a woman shouldn't have to work if they don't want to.

I had a fairly gender neutral childhood in a lot of ways esp. for someone raised in the 50s-60s and compared with a lot of my friends and even younger trans guys. For instance, I played with all kinds of toys (blocks, toy cars, dolls, etc. I played with everything) and was not expected to stay clean and so on. However, it doesn't mean I wouldn't have felt what was going on in the culture, so to speak. And yes, Ayden, I think things were more relaxed in the midwest generally.

I feel guys can do whatever they want to do, and in some cases being a stay at home dad (where that makes sense to the family and individual), he should do this and not feel guilty about this. I don't think single income homes are much of a thing in the 21st C, and most families can't really get by on one income.

I don't know how these particular terms are "motivating". Shaming maybe, if you are motivated by that kind of emotion. Do you mean that you would actually do something or change your behavior in some way if those terms were used on you? I am pretty sure they would have a negative impact on me in all possible ways.

Note: I don't feel it is my place to say what I think black people should do as it is out of my experience. I think there are some things Brandon talks about which may be cultural but he is also in a vastly different generation.  Being trans only allows me to relate so far.

--Jay

Quote from: Edge on March 08, 2014, 11:39:55 PM
Speaking of men and women's roles, someone once told me that raising kids required more emotion and not much logic and physical strength. Hopefully, why such a statement is ludicrous is obvious.
I can only speak for myself. I have no issue with "be a man" because I have trouble taking it seriously.
However, phrases like "man up" and "grow up" bother me because they suggest that the person is deficient in some way. "Be a man" tells a guy to be what he already is. "Man up" and "grow up" tells a person that they aren't already.
Ironically, I usually hear about how "real men" aren't like me from people who say it's ok to be effeminate and who expect me to be pleased when they tell me "real men" don't have some of the stereotypically masculine traits I have.

Exactly, the whole phrase is meant to be ridiculing and insulting.  I've never heard man up in a kind way, but I'm sure it can be used somewhat jokingly between friends.  However, usually it's a way to say that you aren't a man or lesser in some way.  A way to show disaproval of one's masculinity or lack thereof.  I don't know. The phrase just brings up bad memories from my past and reminds me what a disappointment I am to some.  Also, I really hate macho attitudes because it reminds me of bullies and how they treat the "weaker" or the guys that differ from their rigid gender norms.   In my eyes, a man should be secure enough in themselves without the need to belittle others.  Not saying being masculine or macho is a bad thing, but when it's used to prove one's worth over another, then it becomes a problem.  Just hope everyone considers this because those phrases have the potential to cause hurt feelings and upset people when used. 

I can understand the motivation thing since I motivate myself a similar way, but when other people do it, it's been to tell me to change something I don't want to. One of my exes used "grow up" to tell me to stop calling my family out on their crap and just accept it. Yeah that was never going to happen.

Quote from: learningtolive on March 09, 2014, 08:26:48 AMAlso, I really hate macho attitudes because it reminds me of bullies and how they treat the "weaker" or the guys that differ from their rigid gender norms.

I have no problem with macho guys, but many of the ones I've met were the kind who claimed to be big shots in a gang, connected to HA, blah blah blah. Needless to say, a lot of them got the crap beat out of them.

Quote from: learningtolive on March 09, 2014, 08:26:48 AM
Exactly, the whole phrase is meant to be ridiculing and insulting.  I've never heard man up in a kind way, but I'm sure it can be used somewhat jokingly between friends.  However, usually it's a way to say that you aren't a man or lesser in some way.  A way to show disaproval of one's masculinity or lack thereof.  I don't know. The phrase just brings up bad memories from my past and reminds me what a disappointment I am to some.  Also, I really hate macho attitudes because it reminds me of bullies and how they treat the "weaker" or the guys that differ from their rigid gender norms.   In my eyes, a man should be secure enough in themselves without the need to belittle others.  Not saying being masculine or macho is a bad thing, but when it's used to prove one's worth over another, then it becomes a problem.  Just hope everyone considers this because those phrases have the potential to cause hurt feelings and upset people when used.

I just happen to disagree its not always meant to be ridiculing or insulting, It depends on the reason it's being said.