I am listening to a transgender podcast, (audio) and the guest is introduced as (not her real name) Linda Jones, the woman strats talking and the voice is unequivocally male, as I listen it is impossible to conjure up anything but the image of a man talking. Although it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I would say I found it unsettling and I had a hard time not judging this woman as to her wisdom of doing a radio interview with a voice that people are going to hear as male.

What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it nout there and see what others think.

In the case of a radio interview, where the voice is very important, I think that she lacked introspection and judgement to go there and I myself would not be too happy about this, because it promotes the man-in-dress view in the public (though it sure helps those that do not correspond to this stereotype remain stealth...). Its not because your a TS, that calling into question any judgement call by them, or questioning their self-awareness, should not be done. Plenty of normal people are idiots and I am not afraid to say so.

Melissa,
 We all have our own type of prejudices and it is all right. In your mind you have this thought of a guy, with I assume a womans name, and you can't just listen to what she has to say without putting a gender to her. There are a lot of GG's out there who have deep voices. You should just listen to what they have to say and don't worry about the gender, does it make a difference? I hope not.
Sheila

Sheila, there is a difference between a deep male voice and deep female voice.
Its quite easy to see the difference, the timbre is quite different (subarmonics of the main pitch).
Some people don't realize how manly their voices are or they don't care.
Well, If they're going into a public space like this, not caring lack self-awareness.

The voice I heard was unequivocally male and, believe me, that is what everyone else heard. There didn't seem to be any effort on her part to sound anything but a man.

My voice isn't perfect but I think it is better than most (when I am "on" anyway) Still, I myself would not do a radio interview at this point.





Posted on: August 14, 2007, 03:10:10 PM

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Quote from: Keira on August 14, 2007, 02:53:57 PM

In the case of a radio interview, where the voice is very important, I think that she lacked introspection and judgement to go there and I myself would not be too happy about this, because it promotes the man-in-dress view in the public (though it sure helps those that do not correspond to this stereotype remain stealth...). Its not because your a TS, that calling into question any judgement call by them, or questioning their self-awareness, should not be done. Plenty of normal people are idiots and I am not afraid to say so.

Whew! Thanks K!

In some ways, I'd rather hear an M2F just speak in her original bass voice than an obviously breathy  fake falsetto expending WAY too much effort to sound stereotypically feminine...

Zythyra

I noticed voice more than most things last May when my husband and I attended an MFT conference attended primarily by crossdressers.  It had been 4 years since we'd been around a group of CDs, and it seemed so strange that many made no effort to modify their speech or behavior. 

Perhaps if one is just visiting the other gender for a few days or hours, one isn't concerned with voice, walk, slouching, toe direction in the ladies room, etc.  That's a shame because the public must see more Cds IRL than TS folks.

I'd be interested to hear what some of our CD members think.

Robyn

Quote from: y2gender on August 15, 2007, 09:50:57 PM
In some ways, I'd rather hear an M2F just speak in her original bass voice than an obviously breathy  fake falsetto expending WAY too much effort to sound stereotypically feminine...

Zythyra

On the radio though, the image I would get is that of a transwoman, not a man. You hear a man's voice and all you see is a man.

QuoteOn the radio though, the image I would get is that of a transwoman, not a man. You hear a man's voice and all you see is a man.

Actually, all I see is the radio  >

Seriously though, yes, voice is an obvious gender marker. Sometimes though, people go overboard trying too hard, and to me that sounds worse than just hearing a booming bass voice...

Zythyra

I believe that it is human nature to carry a prejudice.  I admit that I feel similarly when I see or hear one of these interviews.  But then I think and remember one of my dearest friends in the world.  She has never been able to get the voice right.  Twenty years after surgery, she still has this trait.  She's tried. She's tried hard.  My heart bleeds for her sometimes.

So, when I hear one of these interviews, my initial thoughts are in the same vein.  And then they turn to sadness, hurting for the person being interviewed.  And before you know it, I'm crying and have to turn it off.  This sadness is more than I can bear.  How is that for having this prejudice.

Yes, I am prejudiced.   And sometimes it turns my stomach that I feel this way.  How cruel this world is to some of us.

I'm sorry Melissa.  I wish I hadn't read this thread.  Now I feel like the world's greatest bigot.  Perhaps just by knowing what our gut reactions are and realizing what we are feeling is a start.  Maybe the way the world comes to terms with all of this needs to start with us.

Cindi

Maybe it's a lesson to people like me that if we want to be perceived as women, we need to pay attention not only to our appearance but to the way we speak. I've put alot of effort into my voice recently and I'm pleased because I 'm making progress - not perfect yet because I tend to do silly reflex things like clear my throat or cough in my deeper voice, but I think I'm getting the pitch and resonance much better than when I started. It's not just that though, it's so hard to get into the habit of speaking GIRL language and stop speaking MAN language, especially after having masqueraded as a man for most of my life....know what I mean?  Maybe I'll put something on youtube so you can hear me, I'll let you know if I do! BUT....I'm not ready to do radio interviews.....YET!

And getting back to the topic, it's only transphobic if you wouldn't have the same feelings about ANY woman who spoke like a man. OMG if I had been born a woman and I spoke like a man I'd have to do something about it, take elocution lessons or something. Definitely.

Quote from: y2gender on August 15, 2007, 09:50:57 PM
In some ways, I'd rather hear an M2F just speak in her original bass voice than an obviously breathy  fake falsetto expending WAY too much effort to sound stereotypically feminine...

Zythyra

I agree for the most part with this statement. My mother had a deep voice and I sound very much like her. I talk on the phone all day at work and have talked to many GG women with much deeper voices than most men.
However,at the same time if the voice was that of say..Barry White or Isaac Hayes then I would be a little disturbed about it!

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 14, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
I am listening to a transgender podcast, (audio) and the guest is introduced as (not her real name) Linda Jones, the woman strats talking and the voice is unequivocally male, as I listen it is impossible to conjure up anything but the image of a man talking. Although it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I would say I found it unsettling and I had a hard time not judging this woman as to her wisdom of doing a radio interview with a voice that people are going to hear as male.

What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it out there and see what others think.

Funny, I didn't recall even mentioning pitch, and now I see I didn't mention pitch. I said the voice was unequivocally male. Anyone who has made ANY effort to find her feminine voice should know that it is not all about pitch. Very few females speak in a much lower pitch than the average male BTW and those that do usually speak with feminine resonance, timbre, pace, articulation and context.

Yes, I  feel better that other people feel the way I do. I think it is a normal reaction, especially since I would probably avoid radio myself until I have more confidence. I have seen myself on TV and the voice with the visual is a woman but the voice alone many times gets clocked as male. (Which makes me feel pretty good that the visual trumps the not perfect auditory)

It isnt transphobic in my view.  I would react the same way. Some TG women I know dont care to improve their voice.  That bothers me.  Attitude is not whats needed when you want the world to see you as you wish to be seen.  its your responsibility to adjust to the norms of society.  it isnt society's responsibility to adjust to yours.

It is more like how we see ourselves, isn't it? When I know if I hear myself on the radio and hear a man, I will not be pleased, I may be my biggest critic, people keep telling me my voice is good, my therapist tells me "there is nothing wrong with your voice."   But I have not found my true feminine speaking voice yet. Not the one that suits me.

Hey Melissa,

Thanks for bringing this up in the way that you have. It's really good of you to admit having these kinds of feelings, because I think we all do, at least at times. Just the fact that you are willing to admit having these feelings and want to do something about it speaks volumes about where you are on your journey.

I don't know if anyone caught that program about transsexuals in prison, but there was this one MtF that was in prison in Idaho. She looked and sounded very manly and knew it. She had been blacklisted in the oil field where she had worked as a roughneck. She decided her only choice was to go to LA and prostitute herself, but soon found out she was too old and too manly.

The point is, I caught myself being prejudice against her, as if her dysphoria was not valid because she was so manly. In the end I really felt bad for her and ashamed of myself. I am sure many people see me the same way. Anyway, thanks for bringing it up.

Love always,
Elizabeth

kk, Im not actualy going to comment on the topic of this topic LoL....

Pitch has nothing to do with how male or female a voice sounds... the technical term is resonant harmonics...  if it were something simple there wouldnt be hundreds if not thousands of us trying to learn a voice... and there wouldnt be dosens of how two books and CDs out there to burn our money, and voice theripists wouldnt have any TS customers...

The resonant harmonics are a dead give away... every time, all the time...   and very hard to learn to controll... 
KK, Ive given my two cents worth...  have a good night.

Whoa!!!! I never said anything about shame, that word is not even in my vocabulary. I only made the point that I wouldn't be happy hearing my voice on a podcast without seeing the whole package.

Posted on: August 17, 2007, 11:03:23 PM

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Quote from: LynnER on August 17, 2007, 09:26:51 PM
kk, Im not actualy going to comment on the topic of this topic LoL....

Pitch has nothing to do with how male or female a voice sounds...

That is obviously the case. Pitch is the first thing a therapist will focus on, then resonance, pace, timbre, context, etc.

I think its also about judgement, I think someone who doesn't care how their voice will come off on radio have a poor judgement. Plenty of radio people work on their voices, there is a reason for it.

Some TS ARE delusional about their ability to blend, how they are perceived, etc.

If a person doesn't care if they come off as a man on a radio show about her as a TS, what does it say about her, what do other women who listen in will think, will they all be generous souls?

I hear the word bigoted, phobic, etc, said more often in this group than anywhere else! I think that even people are accepting of you as a human being, that doesn't mean they will accept you as anything you purport to be just because you think so (because people are not mind readers in general).

I hear often here that, oh lets just ask that person about X, why does she go on radio with a manly voice, or learn more about here because she's doing some gender bending stuff; why on earth would I do that with that person and not another? Do I ask a random person I make a snap judgement about because of how they present themselves to expose all their motivations for doing so, so I can maybe understand them... What if I think their motivations are total crap, should I be their psychologist and dig where they don't even dare go...

People do stupid thing, and I don't think it reflects on me at all to point that up; I do so many of those myself and I'm sure plenty of people will make judgement on me.

How we present ourselves is the first level of communication, well before people can learn about what kind of existential angst that drive us; not caring about that puts a barrier between us and people before even they can learn about us on a more personal level. Then, we wonder what happened and mope about this wondering why the world is soooo cruel, soooo unfair; better reaction would be to work on the voice, the presentation and not be a victim. By the way, I've got plenty of experience dealing with TS in person, so I know what I'm talking about.