Quote from: Hikari on March 07, 2014, 04:39:51 PM
Hideyoshi, I respectfully suggest your argument is pointless. Just like in previous threads Nikko will say something controversial and provably false be it Rush Limbaugh having no views outside the mainstream, or Republicans have never compared Obama to Hitler; and then when you say something to rebuff this, she will make a broad attack on the left, dismiss what you say and continue more rhetoric. If you look at the previous threads you will see this is a pattern that repeats quite a few times. It isn't like someone with such strong and extreme positions is going to be swayed by anything anyway, so what is the purpose?

I will say Jamie D did, however make a point, one I vehemently disagree with and feel has little merit. That being said, it was a well articulated and reasonable point (no matter how much I disagree) and looked almost like an open invitation to have a meaningful debate. Perhaps it is a bit naive to think that a political debate on the internet, especially in a community that the vast majority of which supports ENDA, could have any meaningful outcome, but I have to give kudos to Jamie D for attempting to do this in good faith, and actually address the argument rather than just resorting to name calling as so many on both sides invariably do.

Genius!

Quote from: Nikko on March 07, 2014, 06:30:36 PM


Genius!

That's kind of funny.  Did you not read the rest of her comment?

It was proclaiming the inanity of arguing with the weathered stump that is the relentless conservative vigilance.

Quote from: Jamie D on March 07, 2014, 06:15:31 PM
I have found ad hominem attacks don't accomplish much.  Tekla and Julie Marie were about as far left, politically, as any people on this board.  True believers.  They had a difficult time defending the 0bama legacy.

I doubt they are really all that left. I didn't remember seeing much talk of nationalization of all industry, abolition of property, elimination of class thru the power of the state, etc. If anything calling someone a True Believer in that context is in it's own way an ad hominem attack, especially since it is so vague the reader is left to assume just what is exactly is they believe in. It is about as useful as running around telling people that they must have "drunk the koolaid" because they don't believe the same as you.

And what is with the zero-bama spelling? Are we back to the days of Bu$h? What is the point in a misspelling that I can only assume is intentional as it is so consistent.

Quote from: Jamie D on March 07, 2014, 06:15:31 PM
I tend to put my principles into action through my works.  I don't depend on the nanny state.  By way of example, for the fourth year I will be participating in "Take Steps, Be Heard" - the fundraiser for the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation, to help find effective treatments and cures for this group of conditions.  I hope to go over $10,000 this year. 

Well, good for you. The state is exactly what I support with my tax dollars, and I want it to protect the social welfare and social justice of all of us, especially the less fortunate. You aren't supposed to depend on it unless you need to, ideally we all work according to ability and all are cared for according to need So I guess I put my principles into action every week with my paycheck and when I file my taxes next week, I am going to be putting my principles into action until I can pay the IRS off.

Quote from: Hikari on March 07, 2014, 11:06:35 PM
I doubt they are really all that left. I didn't remember seeing much talk of nationalization of all industry, abolition of property, elimination of class thru the power of the state, etc. If anything calling someone a True Believer in that context is in it's own way an ad hominem attack, especially since it is so vague the reader is left to assume just what is exactly is they believe in. It is about as useful as running around telling people that they must have "drunk the koolaid" because they don't believe the same as you.

And what is with the zero-bama spelling? Are we back to the days of Bu$h? What is the point in a misspelling that I can only assume is intentional as it is so consistent.

Well, good for you. The state is exactly what I support with my tax dollars, and I want it to protect the social welfare and social justice of all of us, especially the less fortunate. You aren't supposed to depend on it unless you need to, ideally we all work according to ability and all are cared for according to need So I guess I put my principles into action every week with my paycheck and when I file my taxes next week, I am going to be putting my principles into action until I can pay the IRS off.

I suppose you would have had multiple interactions with each of them to understand the context of "true believer."  As I recall, Tekla proudly wore the badge of an unapologetic socialist.  She's not here anymore to clarify, so I will simply let her 18,000+ posts speak for her.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.
- Karl Marx, 1875, "Critique of the Gotha Program"

"Koolaid drinking" refers to mindless devotion to flawed leadership.  It harkens back to the Jonestown tragedy.

It seems though, that "social justice" isn't one of the enumerated purposes in the US Constitution, which defines the limited role of the Federal government.

You are right about one thing, 0bama is unnecessarily long.  "0" should suffice. 

Quote from: Jamie D on March 08, 2014, 12:32:43 AM
I suppose you would have had multiple interactions with each of them to understand the context of "true believer."  As I recall, Tekla proudly wore the badge of an unapologetic socialist.  She's not here anymore to clarify, so I will simply let her 18,000+ posts speak for her.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.
- Karl Marx, 1875, "Critique of the Gotha Program"

"Koolaid drinking" refers to mindless devotion to flawed leadership.  It harkens back to the Jonestown tragedy.

It seems though, that "social justice" isn't one of the enumerated purposes in the US Constitution, which defines the limited role of the Federal government.

You are right about one thing, 0bama is unnecessarily long.  "0" should suffice. 

If what you mean by socialist is someone who wants to protect the environment, feed the hungry, regulate businesses so they don't create destructive monopolies, provide low cost or free public healthcare to each citizen, end senseless wars, expand education, and eliminate religion's grasp on the country, I guess I'm a socialist.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 08, 2014, 06:05:14 AM
If what you mean by socialist is someone who wants to protect the environment, feed the hungry, regulate businesses so they don't create destructive monopolies, provide low cost or free public healthcare to each citizen, end senseless wars, expand education, and eliminate religion's grasp on the country, I guess I'm a socialist.

By "socialist" I mean someone who adheres to this philosophy, as did Tekla:

Socialism is an economic concept that advocates public ownership of all resources. The production and distribution of resources with a society are then controlled by members of that society collectively or by the government that represents that society. Goods are produced and distributed based on need rather than on market forces such as profitability, price and consumers' purchasing power. In a socialist economy, workers contribute to society based on their ability and receive according to their needs, rather than being paid wages and using that money to purchase what they want. Private possessions are limited to personal-use items such as clothes, and there is no need or ability for individuals to accumulate wealth, so there is equality among the people.

That is a very narrow definition of socialism that doesn't at all meet up with real world practice... Few would have called Federal Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia anything but Socialist but, it doesn't meet that definition. In real world usage socialism means 'using government power in an attempt to mitigate the power of class'. Your definition totally leaves out all forms of market socialism, and indeed the vast majority of parties that identify with socialism.

When Senator Sanders uses the word Socialism, and the CPUSA uses the word Socialism, they almost always refer to different things.

The truth is the vast majority of people who identify as Socialist are much closer to the socialism of the European Democratic Socialists, than the CPUSA's Socialism as a stepping stone to communism and absolute classlessness. I should know, as someone who has ran quite a few socialist groups during the time when I was a member of the CPUSA I was dreadfully disappointed in the fact that majority of those who would come to these groups were people who wanted a Swedish or Finnish model of things not a Cuban or Yugoslavian one.

Quote from: Jamie D on March 08, 2014, 12:59:50 PM
By "socialist" I mean someone who adheres to this philosophy, as did Tekla:

Socialism is an economic concept that advocates public ownership of all resources. The production and distribution of resources with a society are then controlled by members of that society collectively or by the government that represents that society. Goods are produced and distributed based on need rather than on market forces such as profitability, price and consumers' purchasing power. In a socialist economy, workers contribute to society based on their ability and receive according to their needs, rather than being paid wages and using that money to purchase what they want. Private possessions are limited to personal-use items such as clothes, and there is no need or ability for individuals to accumulate wealth, so there is equality among the people.

I'm befuddled by the frequent suggestions that Obama is a socialist. I assumed that people making said claim were operating with a radically different definition of socialism than I do. Now I'm even more confused. I see Obama as moderate-right. 

Quote from: G:W:Y:N:N:E on March 08, 2014, 05:29:04 PM
I'm befuddled by the frequent suggestions that Obama is a socialist. I assumed that people making said claim were operating with a radically different definition of socialism than I do. Now I'm even more confused. I see Obama as moderate-right. 

I suggest you read "Dreams from my Father."

The change will be even more profound when we Canada and the USA become one -which is coming sooner than you think-

Yeah, by then we will be close to Swedish model...

The coming change is unstoppable and irreversible.... 

Quote from: peky on March 08, 2014, 05:43:12 PM
The change will be even more profound when we Canada and the USA become one -which is coming sooner than you think-

Yeah, by then we will be close to Swedish model...

The coming change is unstoppable and irreversible....

Canada was invited to join the United States in the 1780's.  They declined then, and would likely decline now.

Peky, thank you for the humor.

Quote from: Hikari on March 06, 2014, 08:07:07 AM
Was this Necromancy necessary?

I understand the logical injunctions against thread necromancy, but in almost every case I've come across, the information is useful and not redundant. We aren't reviving threads about how to make international characters or why aol discs were a waste of postage. Usually when someone revives a thread it's because they legitimately want more information on a specific topic.

I will admit to having gotten vital information from the results of old thread necromancy, often on topics so obscure that it provides the most valid and current info I can find.

Also, I would like to point out that I do depend on the "nanny state." Without it I could make my own way in the world easily but my daughter would be thrown under the bus. I need the government and I need handouts or this perfectly honest and human child would go without food or education. I was a republican until I became a single poor caregiver of a disabled person. Even back when I worked two and three jobs I needed government assistance to keep her out of lockup. No amount of pride or awareness of public identity is going to keep me from doing what it takes to feed her and keep her safe.

Quote from: Felix on March 09, 2014, 08:45:30 AM
I understand the logical injunctions against thread necromancy, but in almost every case I've come across, the information is useful and not redundant. We aren't reviving threads about how to make international characters or why aol discs were a waste of postage. Usually when someone revives a thread it's because they legitimately want more information on a specific topic.

I will admit to having gotten vital information from the results of old thread necromancy, often on topics so obscure that it provides the most valid and current info I can find.

Also, I would like to point out that I do depend on the "nanny state." Without it I could make my own way in the world easily but my daughter would be thrown under the bus. I need the government and I need handouts or this perfectly honest and human child would go without food or education. I was a republican until I became a single poor caregiver of a disabled person. Even back when I worked two and three jobs I needed government assistance to keep her out of lockup. No amount of pride or awareness of public identity is going to keep me from doing what it takes to feed her and keep her safe.

it's amazing how people can change their view on things when actually confronted with adversity

It seems that the conservative mindset is of callousness and apathy.  BUT, once something affects a conservative, and they actually see how people live in dire situations, most change their way of thinking.  It's called empathy, and it's a great thing.

Slave to the State 

Quote from: Jamie D on March 08, 2014, 06:12:27 PM
Canada was invited to join the United States in the 1780's.  They declined then, and would likely decline now.

Peky, thank you for the humor.

Have you read "Merger of the Century"  by Diane Francis, my funny friend ?

Quote from: peky on March 09, 2014, 02:40:32 PM
Have you read "Merger of the Century"  by Diane Francis, my funny friend ?

Why the Canadian would want to take on 17+ trillion dollars in debt is beyond me.

Quote from: Jamie D on March 09, 2014, 02:35:00 PM
Slave to the State 

This is a democratic republic, we the people are the state. I have faith in Democracy, and as cynical as I am about it when it comes down to it I have faith in the United States of America, and by that I don't mean some slave owning old men who went to war over a laughable tax increase whilst shouting "no taxation without representation" just to later own do the same to their own citizens, I mean the America of today, I mean the democratic process, I mean the path that I think will inevitably lead us down the path to remove that upper class who for so long as taken so much from us, while doing nothing for society themselves but throwing crumbs at charities, that wouldn't be needed in the first place if not for their existence.

I am a slave to no one, I willingly participate in society.

 

Quote from: Felix on March 09, 2014, 08:45:30 AM
I understand the logical injunctions against thread necromancy, but in almost every case I've come across, the information is useful and not redundant. We aren't reviving threads about how to make international characters or why aol discs were a waste of postage. Usually when someone revives a thread it's because they legitimately want more information on a specific topic.

I will admit to having gotten vital information from the results of old thread necromancy, often on topics so obscure that it provides the most valid and current info I can find.

Also, I would like to point out that I do depend on the "nanny state." Without it I could make my own way in the world easily but my daughter would be thrown under the bus. I need the government and I need handouts or this perfectly honest and human child would go without food or education. I was a republican until I became a single poor caregiver of a disabled person. Even back when I worked two and three jobs I needed government assistance to keep her out of lockup. No amount of pride or awareness of public identity is going to keep me from doing what it takes to feed her and keep her safe.

I don't believe there are many people that would be against someone in your position receiving help.

But what most people mean by the term "nanny state" is the state taking over things we could and should do for ourselves, things we want to do for ourselves. Many people believe the "nanny state" threatens our ability to care for those truly in need and I think we've reached that point. We've reached a debt level that threatens everyone. Both parties have been responsible for the debt, it's time to deal with it. We have millions of able bodied Americans scamming the system, they're taking advantage of people's compassion and putting people truly in need at risk.

Nanny State = "House Pets of Government"

Incidentally, that's the name of my old band

Quote from: m7♭5 on March 10, 2014, 08:46:07 AM
Nanny State = "House Pets of Government"

Incidentally, that's the name of my old band

You write songs about the horrors of big government? If so, I'll buy your album when it comes out.