Edit: I think the comparison I originally sought to make was non-transitioning TG vs. CD. Sorry, the non-op label confused things.

In my quest for identity, some nomenclature confuses me: non-op transgendered vs. crossdresser. This post is framed in the MtF context, since in the FtM context 'crossdressing' is more or less considered to be part of accepted social norms.

What's the distinction here? I've heard in many places people vehemently deny they're a CD. Why? Is the term 'CD' defined as someone that adopts female clothing for purely aesthetic, or sexual, reasons? Every CD I ever heard from has said that they have feelings of female identity, at least partially. Do people really think that CDs take off the clothes and makeup and go back to being "one of the bros"? Because if that's the definition, I'm thinking I was using the wrong term for myself.

IMHO, all of these apply to both non-op transgendered (MtF) people and crossdressers:
- Feels like a woman, partially or fully.
- Longs to look like a woman.
- Has feminine interests and behaviors, and often feels out of place with cis male peers because of it.
- Does not present as a woman all the time, to all the people.
- Does not undergo transition (HRT / SRS / FFS).
- Does wish to retain the ability to switch from female to male.

Is it that CD = "I still like to be male some of the time" vs. TG = "because of life circumstance, I have to appear male some of the time but don't like it?" I sure don't read it that way.

Or is it just semantics? Perhaps another term fits the 'I still go both ways' gender orientation better? Genderbending? Genderqueer? Pangender?

/soooconfused
- Jesse

Non-op is usually someone who does live as a woman, but has not had and has no plans to have SRS. Basically someone who transitioned. Though it can technically refer to those who haven't transitioned as well or those who have but aren't taking hormones as well as not having SRS. Generally when someone refers to themselves as non-op, they are saying they do identify as a woman/transsexual/etc. but have no plans for SRS. Pre-op usually refers to those who do plan to have SRS even if that day is a long way off.

Ah labels!

I'm a pre-op female. I live full time as me, a woman, I still have my natal male genitals (at the moment). I'm reassigned hormonally and socially all of my gender markers on official documents are female, to CD I would have to wear male clothing.
My CD sisters would not (usually) live their lives as FT females, they would probably present at work and in most everyday circumstance as male. They may or may not decide to go FT in the future.
I accept them fully as members of the transgender community. I respect them completely. But at the moment they may not want societal acceptance as a female.

I am not a male in anyway bar my chromosome designation and my redundant and in my case totally none functional remnant male genitals.

Labels are however pretty useless for gender incongruent people, they mean nothing and are more often than not used to discriminate between people who have complex lives and identity.

Yea, I can see how this can be tricky. Once I came out to myself and discussed things with a few people close to me my whole life and my therapist I have chosen to accept that at this moment I am at least a non-op transgendered but not a cross dresser, but choose to identify as MtF transsexual. The reason is my understanding is that cross dressers are comfortable with being male and have no desire to be female physically in the majority of texts that I have read. There is of course differences even in academia on these definitions, let alone among the transgender community, and more so the rest of society.

Now, since I just bought my first female clothes ever, and have wore them am I now a cross dresser or both? I was asked to go ahead and start to wear women's clothes and try makeup on for size per my therapist. These are things I was hesitant to do, not that I seen them as wrong because I never did see it as a problem when others did it. I just did not want to fuel an obsession or a mind that was not healthy, though it felt that way to me I needed someone with professional skills to confirm it. But now that I have done both does this take me from non-op transgendered to cross dresser? Or am I both now? Or am I simply a MtF transexual who is exhibiting characteristics of these two labels?

As I learn more, the only thing I really can say is my self identity may still change more. If I continue to transition, it most certainly will, to pre-op, and then post-op. However, even then there will be those that then want to label me further, such as homosexual MtF, or nonhomosexual MtF, or hetrosexual MtF, to even  ->-bleeped-<-c which I think is a really goofed up term the more I read about Harry Benjamin and dig through Anne Lawrence's Men Trapped in Men's Bodies: Narratives of Autogynephilic Transsexualism as they use it as a label when I see it as merely a symptom exhibited by many types of transsexuals. They then go on to determine what contributor's submitted by adding their own narratives and discounting what many of these people provided them anonymously to fit their label.

I do not find the activity of using labels or looking for/creating them as bad, as it is needed to some degree to help learn things about differences and similarities, but again they really are never all inclusive or at times even remotely accurate. Thus, we all must really rely on what we choose to describe/label ourselves, and I saw Aisla state something similar on another post and it just rings so true. However, due to this, we will all "cross" each other and even ourselves up once in a while. 

So in the end you hit it on the nail yourself Jesse when you said "just semantics."

Hi all,
Sorry, sloppy posting. I actually intended this post to compare the 'non-transitioning TG vs CD' terms, not 'non-op TG vs CD'. I realize that some folks transition without surgery or HRT.

I was wondering about those that choose to not transition, and how hard a line divides them from cross-dressers.

The more I'm thinking about it, I realize that 'cross dressing' is more of a description of activity, or behavior, not a gender orientation. In other words, CD = "the act of putting on clothes intended for another gender (no gender orientation implied)". So one could say "I'm a _____ (insert orientation here), and I cross dress".

I was browsing the CD forum some more, and saw some descriptions like "I'm a man, 100%, but I enjoy wearing women's clothes". Reading that, I must say, I don't feel that way; there's way more female identity in it for me. So in the end, I'm thinking CD is too vague a term for how I feel.

JesseG, we all have things we do to cope with the dysphoria. For some, occasional dressing works; for others it has to be HRT, FFS, BA, and SRS.

I am TG - genderfluid identified.  Given my health issues, I am likely non-op.  I was on HRT for several months, before the issue popped up.  Low dose HRT was sufficient for me to lose much of the dysphoria.

I tend to avoid labeling myself though.  And I am taking greater control of my coping mechanisms.

Jesse,  I'm a transsexual woman...and yet secondly I identify as Bigender. I have two genders, female, and androgyne...but most of the time I am female so I call it my primary identity. Occasionally I will flip to androgyne because that's just how my brain works, but it doesn't happen very often.

So I just stick with transsexual woman as a label. I'm on full dose hrt and my hormone levels are in female range; I plan on having GRS at some point when my life is stable enough to deal with dilating and financial issues during recovery.

My point is that labels are something that simply don't work for some of us. Sometimes we just have to use broader labels.

If someone wants HRT and/or GRS to get a neo vagina or a penis, they are transgender in the sense that their gender assigned at birth does not match their mental gender. I personally feel that male identified cross dressers who have no trans feelings* shouldn't be classified as transgender...it just ends up muddying the definition of trans vs cis. But that is just my view.

*as in a MAAB CD feeling female

Quote from: JesseG on March 09, 2014, 11:14:16 AM
Edit: I think the comparison I originally sought to make was non-transitioning TG vs. CD. Sorry, the non-op label confused things.

In my quest for identity, some nomenclature confuses me: non-op transgendered vs. crossdresser. This post is framed in the MtF context, since in the FtM context 'crossdressing' is more or less considered to be part of accepted social norms.

What's the distinction here? I've heard in many places people vehemently deny they're a CD. Why? Is the term 'CD' defined as someone that adopts female clothing for purely aesthetic, or sexual, reasons? Every CD I ever heard from has said that they have feelings of female identity, at least partially. Do people really think that CDs take off the clothes and makeup and go back to being "one of the bros"? Because if that's the definition, I'm thinking I was using the wrong term for myself.

IMHO, all of these apply to both non-op transgendered (MtF) people and crossdressers:
- Feels like a woman, partially or fully.
- Longs to look like a woman.
- Has feminine interests and behaviors, and often feels out of place with cis male peers because of it.
- Does not present as a woman all the time, to all the people.
- Does not undergo transition (HRT / SRS / FFS).
- Does wish to retain the ability to switch from female to male.

Is it that CD = "I still like to be male some of the time" vs. TG = "because of life circumstance, I have to appear male some of the time but don't like it?" I sure don't read it that way.

Or is it just semantics? Perhaps another term fits the 'I still go both ways' gender orientation better? Genderbending? Genderqueer? Pangender?

/soooconfused
- Jesse

Maybe third gender may work better here. Check out the Hijra of India on wikipedia. Of course that existing depends on society having a sense of accepting that there is more than 2.

I was never born a woman in a man's body. I was born in my body and I like my body, and I like me. For me it's not about choosing actively girly things. It's about removing their restriction. A kind of self de-programming and conquering my own fears. I speak like a female naturally, but I hide it. I want to stop hiding it. I want to be more woman, especially in the area of hormones and because I find femininity attractive, I want to be what I find attractive myself as I understand it better and have a clearer approach. I feel like a lot of my masculinity is programmed. I would like to separate further to understand what was and what wasn't programmed, and what actually was not developed as a defense mechanism.

A third gender would be a portal for people that could accept that they live in the balance between the 2. That you would be considered an xxy designation.

I personally want to pass as both. At least for now. Once the body changes enough, I might find I like the experience of being a girl better. In relationships, I am always wanting to be the girlie one.

The most addictive part of transformation is that I am understanding women, and men in ways that a person is rarely given an opportunity. I can flash back to manhood, flash forward to womanhood and see the in between bits that represent my reactions, and in many cases, my own internal feelings on things, and be able to help others with understanding these things. It's like I get to read from both books lol and understanding is addictive as it's hard to return to a state of ignorance.

Quote from: Hermosa_Tabby on March 28, 2014, 11:41:04 PM
It's about removing their restriction.

This.

I feel like I had certain female behaviors my whole life. I was incredibly shamed by them, so I hid them. I'm finally giving myself license to explore that part of me, and it feels wonderful. The feeling of freedom, letting go of the guilt and shame, this is what brought me so much happiness.

Our society's code of behavior for men is very rigid, downright cruel sometimes. I guess owning your identity as trans - or the third gender as you mentioned - circumvents those rules.