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Can we pls never again say "man up"?

Started by dalebert, March 07, 2014, 10:49:01 AM

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Ltl89

Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 09:50:37 AM

I just happen to disagree its not always meant to be ridiculing or insulting, It depends on the reason it's being said.

I agree that context is what's most important.  It's just most of my experience with the word is that it's usually meant to either ridicule or express disappointment.  Like I said, it can be used in a jocular manner or said between friends.  But having grown up raised the wrong way, I've seen and heard a lot.  Usually it's more a negative phrase than anything which is why I'm not a fan and think it should be avoided.

Quote from: Edge on March 09, 2014, 08:54:36 AM
I can understand the motivation thing since I motivate myself a similar way, but when other people do it, it's been to tell me to change something I don't want to. One of my exes used "grow up" to tell me to stop calling my family out on their crap and just accept it. Yeah that was never going to happen.I have no problem with macho guys, but many of the ones I've met were the kind who claimed to be big shots in a gang, connected to HA, blah blah blah. Needless to say, a lot of them got the crap beat out of them.

Yeah, I don't mind macho or masculine men either.  It's just the ones that act as though they are superior or nasty are to their peers. Their individual mentality and behavior is what's most important.  The difference between an athletic jock and agro macho bully I suppose. 

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AdamMLP

Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 09:50:37 AM

I just happen to disagree its not always meant to be ridiculing or insulting, It depends on the reason it's being said.

Surely the fact that a lot of other people find it harmful is enough to think twice about using the phrase?
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Brandon

Quote from: lxndr on March 09, 2014, 12:20:31 PM
Surely the fact that a lot of other people find it harmful is enough to think twice about using the phrase?


No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Cindy

The ability of humans to pass complex information by communication is what has allowed us to evolve. Words are very powerful, they convey meaning and we need to be careful of what meaning we wish to give.

Men and women have died because of misunderstanding of words.

Tragedies have happened over a misplaced comma. People have gone to their death because of poor sentences and misplaced context.

Be careful when we talk to each other, think about what we write and read what we have written to ensure we are not misunderstood.

Part of being a well rounded decent man or woman is making sure we convey out thoughts accurately.

Think of that before we make a statement. Try to see what others will understand by our statement; before we post it.

Please

Cindy
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AdamMLP

Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM

No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.

The problem is that other people do find it offensive/rude/harmful.  You might not intend to do so, and you might not think that it's harmful, but the truth is that a lot of people do.  Surely, if you're a decent person, you want to avoid hurting anyone, inadvertently or not.  I can't forcing you to stop saying, I obviously can't, I'm asking you to perhaps think more carefully about the choice of words that you use to talk to others.

I'm not perfect, sometimes I find myself saying it, but after reading through this thread and finding the sheer number of people who have a problem with it, I think twice before saying it again to anyone else.
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Whynaut

Wow, this topic exploded.

As someone who is studying in a social justice-oriented field, this phrase disheartens me.

I agree with those who say it isn't demeaning to men and it can often be used in a neutral or positive manner, but I do see it being demeaning to genders outside of cis males and to cultures outside of White America.

As previously stated, there are cultural norms that are expected to accompany the phrase "man up" or "be a man".
First, from a personal perspective, I will never fit into those stereotypes and if someone said this to me I would be offended. I am short and petite. I like cute things. I like fashion. I know nothing about cars or sports. I am still a man and I am comfortable with my masculinity.

This phrase is problematic for women or people who identify as genders other than "male". I read earlier that you could say "handle your business like woman" or "be a woman". Sure, you COULD say that, but the truth is that people don't say that. There is little recognition for women and other gender identities in our cultural phrases outside of being demeaned [calling someone a "bitch" or "pussy"]. Continuing to use "man up" is continuing to ignore the historically oppressed group.

I can only speak from an outside perspective, but this could also be offensive to male-identified people of other cultures. "Being a man" means different things in different parts of the world and calling someone out on their cultural differences is short-sighted at the very least.

Speech carries powerful psychological messages and is deeply ingrained in the culture it stems from. Changing speech to be more inclusive of different people is an important step to changing culture to be more inclusive.

I recognize everyone has freedom of speech and many people aren't malicious about it, but moving forward requires everyone to be an agent of change and put effort into their decisions about how to interact with the world. Our intentions are important, but they are not what the world sees. The uncomfortable truth is that we don't get to decide if others are offended by our words. The people you are speaking to get to decide if they are offended or not and imposing your own will on them helps no one.
"It's like everyone tells a story about themselves inside their own head. Always. All the time. That story makes you what you are. We build ourselves out of that story."
- The Name of the Wind
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Kaelin

The stereotype of "manly" is a self-contradiction.  The are stereotyped accepting whatever abuse that comes from a hazing ritual to become a member of a group, but they're also supposed to be independent and "not take crap from nobody."  Deer hunting is considered a "manly" activity, but it involves someone attacking like a coward rather than according to honor: giving the opponent equal footing by removing the element of surprise and making both sides fight bare-handed (never mind the honor issues of fighting an opponent that does not consent to battle).  They are supposed to be slick salesmen and leaders with integrity.  Reckless thrill-seeking can get themselves and others hurt or killed.  Getting tossed into the prison system serves to make them ineffectual and unable to "provide" for themselves, much less anyone else.  At some point, we have to acknowledge that "manly" lacks a clear real meaning that a person can live up to -- never mind whether "manliness" is a good thing in the first place.

It's a rubbish term.  Instead of telling people to "be men" (which is astonishingly told to boys, who lack the age requirement to be "men" anyway, as illustrated in the first post), we should tell them to "be good people."  Tell people exactly what they're supposed to hear.  They don't need a stereotype -- they need good values.  If the "right" thing to do is to perform some stereotypically-manly objective, you can offer lines like "tough it out," "stick with it," "deal with it," "fall down 7 times, get up 8."  Amazingly, they'll work with women and children, too.  People respond more positively and persistently with directions than insults (especially when those messages are internalized), so there's no reason to ever settle for something sloppy and ineffectual like "man up."
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timbuck2

Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM

No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.

It doesn't matter if YOU don't mean to be rude if it's still negatively affecting people. The problem is it does harm people. Not everyone is thick skinned and even those who are often have things that bother them immensely.
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aleon515

Quote from: learningtolive on March 09, 2014, 10:18:33 AM
I agree that context is what's most important.  It's just most of my experience with the word is that it's usually meant to either ridicule or express disappointment.  Like I said, it can be used in a jocular manner or said between friends.  But having grown up raised the wrong way, I've seen and heard a lot.  Usually it's more a negative phrase than anything which is why I'm not a fan and think it should be avoided.

Another thing implied (not said) is that the term is insulting to women (though I think it is often said in a jocular way). It is misogyny as evidenced by the number of corresponding terms that demean women, often used along with it, "don't be a p***", "don't be a girl", etc. Being a man is put up as a superior thing over and above women which is the worst thing possible to be.

@Cindy-- the English language has thousands of terms for telling people to "get it together" essentially, without resorting to terms which are harmful.

Economist article on de-manning "man up": http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/09/political_correctness


--Jay

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Frank

Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM

No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.

Not to start a fight, again, but I would like to point out there's this thing called empathy and being polite. Sure I could smoke outside, but my friend is severely allergic to the smoke so that would be rude. So I won't. Same situation. You could say it, or you can be a gentleman and try to make the world flow a little smoother.
-Frank
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Brandon

Quote from: Frank on March 09, 2014, 05:14:00 PM
Not to start a fight, again, but I would like to point out there's this thing called empathy and being polite. Sure I could smoke outside, but my friend is severely allergic to the smoke so that would be rude. So I won't. Same situation. You could say it, or you can be a gentleman and try to make the world flow a little smoother.

I agree I wouldn't be rude about it I'm not like that.
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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AdamMLP

Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 05:21:25 PM
I agree I wouldn't be rude about it I'm not like that.

Yet you fail to see the problem in continuing to use a harmful phrase... Can you see what we're trying to say?
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aleon515

Quote from: Brandon on March 09, 2014, 12:33:20 PM

No not really not to be rude but I'm my own person, I'm not using it to harm anyone then whats the problem.

Ok, so you could say it to yourself. The thing is that usually language is used to communicate with other people who might feel it's a problem. Or you can have other people say it to you, I guess. NOt sure what it is exactly that you get out of it though.

--Jay
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Ltl89

Everybody,

Let's not turn against each other.  Not everyone will agree and that's okay.  When I shared my take, I wanted people to understand the real pain that phrase caused me and to others that grew up receiving it.  There is a reason why I don't care for it that goes beyond the word.  To me, it's not the phrase itself at issue, but the attitude behind the phrase and the actions that often follow afterwards.  In any case, I never intended for it to turn into a battle between each other.  I don't think anyone here is advocating bullying even if we don't all agree.  Last thing we should do is fight with each other. 

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Ltl89

Quote from: aleon515 on March 09, 2014, 02:39:01 PM
Another thing implied (not said) is that the term is insulting to women (though I think it is often said in a jocular way). It is misogyny as evidenced by the number of corresponding terms that demean women, often used along with it, "don't be a p***", "don't be a girl", etc. Being a man is put up as a superior thing over and above women which is the worst thing possible to be.

@Cindy-- the English language has thousands of terms for telling people to "get it together" essentially, without resorting to terms which are harmful.

Economist article on de-manning "man up": http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/09/political_correctness


--Jay

That's a good point.  The fact that being a "fem" or "girly" guy  is considered bad really is misogynistic in it's nature.   Though, I'm sure tom boys and girls that don't meet the norms also face some judgement.
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Kaelin

QuoteThough, I'm sure tom boys and girls that don't meet the norms also face some judgement.

They do.  But then, fem women also face judgment for not being [insert code word for "manly"] enough for certain high-profile jobs.  They're shafted either way, although probably not as badly as fem men (mileage varies -- men wearing dresses usually causes a ruckus, but a white-collar man taking time off to take care of a sick kid will usually be seen favorably, whereas a woman would either be seen as a burden or as merely doing what she's supposed to do).  Being feminine, being gender-role nonconforming, and being a woman are all regarded as "liabilities" much more than the reverse.
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Nikotinic

I previously said this to myself as a motivator when I had to do something that made me uncomfortable like get a flu jab, face up to a mistake I made ect. Kind of a short form of "Get your s*** together, and do what you have to do.".

I hadn't thought until reading this thread about how hurtful/sexist that can be. I naturally have quite a stereotypically masculine personality and I'm proud of that, so it gave me strength to think - "You're a man, you can do this." but I guess I just realised how that implies that people who don't identify as manly men don't have the 'guts' to get over their fears or get things done, which is definitely not what I believe. Although I acknowledge that there are differences between men and women I don't think that either is lesser or that either should be constrained to a particular societal role.

I only came out to my husband last November but we've joked for years that I'm 'the man' because he loves children and is a really nurturing person (he's a carer for people with intellectual disabilities and training to be a social worker) whereas I bring home the bacon (side note: mmmm bacon) and handle all of the money, bills, insurance ect. but none of that made me more or less of a woman (though obviously I no longer identify that way), or him more or less of a man. Saying "Man up" as a metaphor for "get s*** done" now seems to invalidate that experience.

I think in a way this is similar to the mainstream use of the word "gay" to describe something that sucks (eg. wow, that math class was gay). I used to say this too when I was a teenager but I in no way at all meant to put down gay people in saying it, it was just what people said. Once I realised what I was doing, ie. making gay "synonymous with the lesser" as Macklemore puts it, I stopped. After thinking about it and reading how much this has effected everyone I'm putting this one to bed. "man up" will no longer be a phrase in my lexicon. I think I'm going to try and replace it with "get it together" instead.
He says the best way out is always through.
And I agree to that, or in so far
As that I can see no way out but through

Robert Frost
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dalebert

Quote from: Nikotinic on March 10, 2014, 05:46:59 AM
I think I'm going to try and replace it with "get it together" instead.

I like that.

Oriah

#98
transitioning is a wonderful thing, but does it bother anyone else when traditional masculinity and femininity come under fire.\?  This is our culture.  "Man up" and deal with it.
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aleon515

Quote from: Oriah on March 10, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
transitioning is a wonderful thing, but does it bother anyone else when traditional masculinity and femininity come under fire.  This is our culture.  "Man up" and deal with it.

Yes, I think transition is a great thing, but I also don't embrace traditional masculinity (or femininity, of course). I am not entirely binary (and I think there are quite a number of people on susans who are not). But even if I were completely binary, the term "man up" is offensive to me. It has, imo, created men who are not in touch with their emotions and who are can be violent to themselves and others. An increasing number of parents are raising their sons to be in touch with their feelings but it might be a minority.

To me, I can chose which of our society I want to claim and which I don't. Anybody who transitions can decide those things, imo. Of course, if someone doesn't read me as quite "masculine enough" then that's possible.

You didn't want "man up" and neither do I.

--Jay
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