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MtF voice help

Started by Annaiyah, March 09, 2014, 10:46:27 AM

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Annaiyah

What I've been doing lately was literally pushing my Adam's Apple up into my chin until it hurts. Then i would speak in a female voice that is very high and soft. I would also do a very long "aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!" from high to low, sometimes my voice would crack as I'm shifting from head to chest voice.

I'm trying to kill off the chest and lower neck vibrations and bring my Adam's Apple into my head without me having to hold it there.

Am i going about this the right way? If not is there a better way to do this? I've been working on my voice since late December and i don't seem to be noticing a change. It's so frustrating!

But i guess it will be worth it this way because i want to practice it this way because I'd rather work on my voice with this method than to spend thousands of dollars on an Adam's Apple shave and them another thousands of dollars on vocal surgery that might not even work.
They say identity theft is a crime. Well, needless to say, a crime has been committed. My identity has been stolen. No, no one knows my social security number or has my credit card. I'm walking around in the wrong body. I'm wearing a costume which I cannot remove... and the only way I can remove that costume, is through surgery
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suzifrommd

Here's what worked for me:

1. I spoke in the highest, squeakiest voice I could manage. I concentrated on remembering the exact position my throat was in.

2. I would then position my throat exactly that way, but speak normally. Everything that came out of my mouth sounded female when I did that.

I hope this helps. It's the best way I can describe it. I got the idea from listening to the CandiFLA series of videos on YouTube.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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smile_jma

How do you push it up? I try to push mine and neck skin is the only thing that moves. If I press it in toward my neck, it will move, but it kind of hurts and I don't think it's moving up very much.. maybe 1mm max, and then I am scared that I'm going to break something. So, I can't do that.
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anjaq

Geez - dont FORCE it - and certainly dont use hands to push it up or anything!

What you do is you go up and up in the sound - speaking some teletubby nonsense or just making a tone. Do a minnie mouse - it will sound really ridiculous but that does not matter. If you do that for most people you can see that with higher notes your larynx (which has in some of us as part of it an "adams apple") will move up. Then you can squeeze the sound (more like a comic witch then) which will move your larynx a bit in a different way and then you concentrate on not loosing that larynx position too much use your hands to check but not push if you need to and lower your sound again to a normal range, maybe a female range of 200 Hz or even lowr if you like to just concentrate on the resonance for now. If you do it right, you should notice that you cannot go as low as you could go before with that larynx in that position. If that happens, you are doing it right. You can at any time try to relax some of the throat muscles more and see if that changes the sound to modify this a bit. You should in the end relax all the moscles not needed to make that female resonance but keep those muscles pulling that give that resonance, thats a bit tricky, and needs experimentation but first concentrate on gettin that lower frequency sound with the higher frequency voice/larynx configuration. It will not work with all people. Some people make high pitched sounds without moving the larynx up, which is actually healthier, but in that case you need to find a different method than the one from Melanie Phillips or CandiFla (which are identical)

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Annaiyah

Quote from: smile_jma on March 09, 2014, 06:04:26 PM
How do you push it up?

I swallow my saliva, then my Adam's Apple bobs up. I use my fingers to hold it in that position.
They say identity theft is a crime. Well, needless to say, a crime has been committed. My identity has been stolen. No, no one knows my social security number or has my credit card. I'm walking around in the wrong body. I'm wearing a costume which I cannot remove... and the only way I can remove that costume, is through surgery
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Annaiyah

Quote from: anjaq on March 10, 2014, 09:27:11 AM
Geez - dont FORCE it - and certainly dont use hands to push it up or anything!

What you do is you go up and up in the sound - speaking some teletubby nonsense or just making a tone. Do a minnie mouse - it will sound really ridiculous but that does not matter. If you do that for most people you can see that with higher notes your larynx (which has in some of us as part of it an "adams apple") will move up. Then you can squeeze the sound (more like a comic witch then) which will move your larynx a bit in a different way and then you concentrate on not loosing that larynx position too much use your hands to check but not push if you need to and lower your sound again to a normal range, maybe a female range of 200 Hz or even lowr if you like to just concentrate on the resonance for now. If you do it right, you should notice that you cannot go as low as you could go before with that larynx in that position. If that happens, you are doing it right. You can at any time try to relax some of the throat muscles more and see if that changes the sound to modify this a bit. You should in the end relax all the moscles not needed to make that female resonance but keep those muscles pulling that give that resonance, thats a bit tricky, and needs experimentation but first concentrate on gettin that lower frequency sound with the higher frequency voice/larynx configuration. It will not work with all people. Some people make high pitched sounds without moving the larynx up, which is actually healthier, but in that case you need to find a different method than the one from Melanie Phillips or CandiFla (which are identical)

That's what I don't understand. How exactly do you squeeze the sound? Your vocal chords? Do you do it with you hands tight around your neck? Besides, I didn't understand the first half of your post.
They say identity theft is a crime. Well, needless to say, a crime has been committed. My identity has been stolen. No, no one knows my social security number or has my credit card. I'm walking around in the wrong body. I'm wearing a costume which I cannot remove... and the only way I can remove that costume, is through surgery
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Carrie Liz

Basically there are a few things that you need in order to really start being able to get your voice into a feminine range:

1. Pitch control. This is one of the things that makes a lot of trans women have a hard time working on their voice at all, is that they really don't have the vocal control to maintain certain pitches, and therefore don't have the control to keep their voice in a certain female range. To work on this, do some non-trans-related voice training. Work on building up strength. Work on being able to hold musical notes. Do some scales, slides, vocal warmups, hums on certain pitches, and just work on being able to maintain certain pitches without your voice warbling and sliding back up or down. You'll need this control in order to be able to really work on pushing your voice higher. (Side note: if you went to a voice-training coach, this would probably be what you'd spend a majority of your time doing. Their #1 goal is teaching vocal control. So it would basically be pitch exercises and phrasing exercises.)

2. Work on pushing your range higher. Once you have the pitch control in order to do it, now you can actually work on using the female range, which will slowly train your voice to speak there. You can do this by speaking and singing at the very top of your chest voice, and in your falsetto voice. (I tend to find singing easier, because it's more fun, and feels a bit less ridiculous to me.) Try to copy the pitch of female singers and the pitch of female speakers. Sing/speak right along with them, and try to copy their speech/singing as best as you can. The basic point is to work on making sounds in that vocal range consistently, which will slowly "train" your natural voice to speak in that range. You can also do this, as Calpernia Addams and Andrea James suggested in their voice course, by using the musical note A, 220 Hz, which is 2 notes below middle-C on a piano. Play that note, and then try to speak using that pitch. Start out with simple "Haaaaa...."s, then move on to a simple phrase like "this is the voice I want to use," and then move on to speaking entire sentences just using that note. (Yes, it will sound monotonous... but the point here isn't to sound realistic yet, just to train the vocal muscles to use that range consistently.)

3. Work on your resonance. You can do this by gargling, (yes, that is the method that a lot suggest... that "guh" sound that you have to make in order to do it actually does push your larynx higher,) or by doing techniques deliberately designed to push that larynx higher. Swallowing is a motion that does that. So try to feel which muscles you are using when you do that swallowing motion which pushes the larynx higher. The way that I did this was actually by trying to replicate the singing tone of folk singer Joan Baez, which required pushing the voice higher and forward into the head. That's the basic thing that you are trying to do here... push the voice away from your chest. Feel the vibrations of your voice. Where are they coming from? Move them higher. Push it up into your neck, then up into your head, and then forward, until your voice is coming from the very top of your throat and resonating in your head rather than your chest. Men tend to speak from the bottom of the throat, letting the voice resonate in the chest. Women tend to speak from the very top of the throat, resonating their voices in their heads.

4. Work on pitch variation/dynamics/expression. Basically, women speak in a very "free" dynamic manner with a lot of pitch variation, a lot of expression, and as a whole it feels very emotionally "free" rather than monotone and restrained. They use pitch to accentuate words rather than volume and staccato like guys do. This step is where, after you've got the pitch and the resonance, you really make it sound female. The only way that I've really found to do this well is to just study how women naturally speak, and trying to copy their phrasing and pitch. And again, repetition, repetition, repetition. Do it over and over and over and over again, until it starts to become natural. There are many subtle little things that women do in terms of inflection and pacing and pitch that you're really not going to get any other way except to be around actual women and study how they speak. Many have suggested finding an actress that you like how she speaks, and then repeat back every single line that she says, trying your absolutely best to replicate her tone of voice and pitch and inflections EXACTLY. Include all of the pitch dynamics, all of the little upward inflections and slides, and again, just do it over and over and over again until it starts to become natural.

And most importantly, remember, this takes TIME. Lots and lots of time. Months. Probably even a year or more before it will really start becoming natural. I started voice training over a year ago, and I still feel pretty inadequate compared to cis-women. The important thing, though, is to just remember that it takes time. You're basically doing the vocal equivalent of learning to play a new instrument. And anyone who's learned an instrument can tell you, you don't learn how to play overnight. You have to keep working at it, practicing and practicing and practicing, until your hands finally start to get the muscle memory to do it. And it takes years of this before you can really become good.

So practice consistently, don't get frustrated and give up, and just keep working on it, day after day, week after week, month after month, and slowly you will see improvement. You just have to learn to keep practicing even when you feel like you're not getting any better.
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anjaq

Quote from: AnnaiyahStarr on March 11, 2014, 08:07:55 AM
I swallow my saliva, then my Adam's Apple bobs up. I use my fingers to hold it in that position.
Quote from: AnnaiyahStarr on March 11, 2014, 08:10:35 AM
That's what I don't understand. How exactly do you squeeze the sound? Your vocal chords? Do you do it with you hands tight around your neck? Besides, I didn't understand the first half of your post.
Nonono - I think you misunderstood - DONT touch with the hands except to feel what is happening - no pushing or squeezing with the hands please, this can hurt your voice! All of this should come from the muscles within your throat. Memozize what the mucles are doing when swallowing, gargling, what happens to them when you go from a very low "uuuu" sound to a very high one (or iiii or eeee). See if the voice box moves, if the resonance changes and then memorize the muscle tension when it is in the right positions. e.g. when swallowing, just try to not let go of it after you swallowed, relax all the muscles you dont need to keep it in that place.
Also with squeezing to get to a "witch" sound I meant more a internal squeeze in a more metaphoric sense. Imagine the difference between mickey mouns and a witch character from animated movies. Or old women parodies. That is what I meant with squeezing - the soiund changes from being clear to sound like it is coming from someone who is choking or something. Its hard to explain, the videos of CanfiFla and FYFV make it more clear. Remmeber to do all of this in the throat, not with hands - the whole thing is about training your throat muscles and let them get used to certain movements and positions that make a female sound. 

Ask me what you did not understand.

Basically what you do is to use your throat muscles to move the voice box up - either by memorizing how it moves when you swallow or by singing a tont going up to a high pitch or by trying to speak like a mouse. And then start with a high pitched sound, keeping the voice box in that position, then slowly try to relax evrything, also lower pitch - and put a finger lightly to the voice box so you can feel (dont use the finger to push) if you relaxed the wrong muscle or relaxed too much so it moves down again - in that case try again or try to undo the last relaxation you did. Dont overdo it, it is ok if the voice box is hanging in the middle somewhere, it does not have to pop out of your throat :P

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Annaiyah

Quote from: anjaq on March 12, 2014, 10:49:09 AM
Nonono - I think you misunderstood - DONT touch with the hands except to feel what is happening - no pushing or squeezing with the hands please, this can hurt your voice! All of this should come from the muscles within your throat. Memozize what the mucles are doing when swallowing, gargling, what happens to them when you go from a very low "uuuu" sound to a very high one (or iiii or eeee). See if the voice box moves, if the resonance changes and then memorize the muscle tension when it is in the right positions. e.g. when swallowing, just try to not let go of it after you swallowed, relax all the muscles you dont need to keep it in that place.
Also with squeezing to get to a "witch" sound I meant more a internal squeeze in a more metaphoric sense. Imagine the difference between mickey mouns and a witch character from animated movies. Or old women parodies. That is what I meant with squeezing - the soiund changes from being clear to sound like it is coming from someone who is choking or something. Its hard to explain, the videos of CanfiFla and FYFV make it more clear. Remmeber to do all of this in the throat, not with hands - the whole thing is about training your throat muscles and let them get used to certain movements and positions that make a female sound. 

Ask me what you did not understand.

Basically what you do is to use your throat muscles to move the voice box up - either by memorizing how it moves when you swallow or by singing a tont going up to a high pitch or by trying to speak like a mouse. And then start with a high pitched sound, keeping the voice box in that position, then slowly try to relax evrything, also lower pitch - and put a finger lightly to the voice box so you can feel (dont use the finger to push) if you relaxed the wrong muscle or relaxed too much so it moves down again - in that case try again or try to undo the last relaxation you did. Dont overdo it, it is ok if the voice box is hanging in the middle somewhere, it does not have to pop out of your throat :P

Sorry about my late response. I've not been in this thread recently.

When I'm in my falsetto or anywhere between there and my normal male voice, the annoying thing about that is that i still feel the vibrations originate in my lower throat. I'm trying to bring that up so the vibrations are in my head or upper throat.

I don't feel anything in my throat when i swallow except for my Adam's Apple going up and down but now i know how to squeeze the vocal chords without help from my hands. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Anjaq!

Last thing, when i hold my Adam's Apple up in my throat (not using my hands) it takes about 30 before my breathing gets cut of and i need to let it go and breath heavily afterwards. Is this normal?
They say identity theft is a crime. Well, needless to say, a crime has been committed. My identity has been stolen. No, no one knows my social security number or has my credit card. I'm walking around in the wrong body. I'm wearing a costume which I cannot remove... and the only way I can remove that costume, is through surgery
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anjaq

Yes - the "adams apple" - or rather the larynx which is connected to it - this is what moves up when you swallow. if you make a sound then its resonance shouldnot be coming asmuch from the chest. swallow and let the adams apple go down a bit but not as far as it would go if you relax - this should be a good position to memorize. I am not totally sure how to explain it but I think with the larynx at that position you should be able to talk with less chest vibrations - maybe you need to tweak this a bit more - and your breathing should not be inhibited. If you overdo it, it resttricts breating that is logical.

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Annaiyah

I recently learned that it's best to avoid swallowing to bring the Adam's Apple upward - but to use the muscles around it to bring it up. For example - act as though you're about to speak in a very high-pitched Mickey Mouse voice and notice how the Adam's Apple goes upward but don't say anything. The point is to work out the muscles that hold the Adam's Apple in the position its in so that it's easier later to get it upward toward the chin and keep it there. Because I also learned that when the Adam's Apple is UP, the resonance WILL be in the upper throat and as SuzifromMD keeps saying about her voice, anything that comes out will sound female.

But I also read in a "Shortcut to your female voice" article that you'll need to bring the Adam's Apple upward and backward. How would I be able to push it back? Will it go back when it is up in the chin? Or shall I just focus on getting it up for the timebeing?

Lastly (and I really hate to bombard you with fifty million questions at once, lol!) is it true that the higher the Adam's Apple, the higher the voice pitch? Because this is how I want my voice to sound: http://www.youtube.com/wa tch?v=yXpnxbdadEg

Though no two humans can sound exactly the same, I want my voice to be high and squeeky like the girl in that video.

Thanks again for walking me through this, Anjaq. Your advice is very helpful.
They say identity theft is a crime. Well, needless to say, a crime has been committed. My identity has been stolen. No, no one knows my social security number or has my credit card. I'm walking around in the wrong body. I'm wearing a costume which I cannot remove... and the only way I can remove that costume, is through surgery
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Unice

My voice is not good. But, I have been following Melanie Anne Philips and Andrea James courses as well as lots of youtube videos. What they all say and what I have experienced is that you should not do anything that hurts...

I have worn out my voice from practicing for hours. Really. Don't do it. There are many videos on youtube about healing your voice or how to wind down after practicing.

Melanie Anne Philips http://heartcorps.com/
Andrea James http://www.genderlife.com/voice-consultation/

Buy there courses, pretty please. I will have to go look for the other that people are mentioning in this thread.

Melanie describes going as low as you can in falsetto. For me, it is seeming like it sounds more natural slightly higher than that. But, the voice cracking is still a big problem for me.

One thing that really confused me was people talking about high and low, because you can see the Adams apple rise. But, finally someone described this as front and back muscles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6p7MNBrrYM&list=UUDsSCbJtfnYnID1fnSVqjgw

After that, I can feel what my larynx is doing which to me anyway, is a big help.

For the break between vocal registers, a combination of various people's lessons each sort of implying this, I manged to bridge without breaking by forming a yawn shape in my throat at an appropriate point before the break. Essentially, people say to yawn to train yourself for singing and people say to push back to avoid the break. The two together put my larynx right where it needs to be.

After only a few days, it now no longer sounds like a yawn or "duh" sound when I do that:

https://soundcloud.com/cheyrn/siren-sans-break-mostly

Actually, there is still a little break, but it's tiny. It might start playing the other clip from a couple of days ago which features my awful falsetto voice.... hopefully it doesn't play that. It is not an example of a good voice. Did I mention that it's not an example of a good voice? Anyway, if it does and you can stand to listen to that, you can see how the break is less than a usual break and the sound is more like "duh" from a couple of days again.

I may have forgotten to mention that the recording is not an example of a good voice. The point is the technique to avoid the break.

Talking without the break is going to take a lot more work, I think. And, that doesn't even deal with not sounding falsetto.

People also say over and over that it is not pitch that makes the voice different. I don't know how describe the quality that makes my falsetto sound fake compared to the brief moments when it doesn't.

I find it is also not strictly pushing the Adams apple or, or moving the larynx forward. I can make all sorts of shapes with my throat and tongue. That plus general voice training is starting to allow me to make a variety of voices. I am expecting one to be appropriate for use with a modulated voice.

Another thing I am doing is carefully increasing my range upward, never to where it feels uncomfortable. And, my range has increased a lot in a couple of weeks.

I like these people on youtube, for voice instruction. It's about singing, but singing uses your voice... so it is voice training:

Claudia Friedlander (opera with not much technical wording):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIsIvgnIZdoA0NYkzXrRigg

Melissa Cross (about vocal fry, screaming and distortion without hurting your voice):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeLa15bcs7SLUwgtsblqYig

She has videos Zen of screaming and Zen of screaming 2. This helped me a lot to feel how my entire throat and larynx moves.

Mr. Ultimate Vocalist guy (useful for me descriptions of ways to increase vocal range and articulate):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAbzTcqsroqxJG1qhzXns-Q

David Dimuzio (more vocal register and articulation instruction):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHr9DSfk2X1CaWlP7GVGHkg

I have deduced that I am not wanted here.
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