Quote from: HelenW on March 10, 2014, 09:51:32 AM
I would take any "news" story from The Christian Broadcasting Network with a large grain of salt.  Just sayin'.

I prefer taking my CBN news with some bread and wine. 

I'm sure their 'bias' leans towards religious values, but for the most part, their stories seem pretty accurate. 

Quote from: Nikko on March 10, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
Insurance companies don't provide healthcare, they provide insurance. Insurance covers exposure which hasn't occurred yet. You use to pay your expected costs (pre Obamacare), which once you've had an sickness and it's ongoing, the cost of the policy essentially becomes the cost of your future medical costs during the term, which is obviously for most people unaffordable. Actually, it's no longer insurance in these cases, the insurance company essentially becomes an administrator of your payments. Any insurance company who's policy is to write these customers will go bankrupt. We can't blame the insurance companies for avoiding bankruptcy.

What's needed is an assigned risk pool. These have been used for home and auto insurance for years. People who can't afford insurance buy from an assigned risk pool at a discounted rate, and either these insureds are assigned randomly to all insurers based on their premium volume or the losses and premiums are assigned proportionally to all insurers. The assigned risk pool is the most effective means to deal with this problem which arises when insurance becomes unaffordable.

What obamacare has done is left these people in the primary markets. Companies will begin to find ways to not underwrite people whose premium does not cover their expected costs, that's why you don't leave them in the primary marketplace.

My main point is, insurance companies shouldn't be demonized for basic rational behavior. There are many solutions to the private sector health insurance problems. It's my contention there are many in government that don't want to implement these simple fixes for political reasons. Namely they want to leave the system broken so as to make single-payer a reality. But that leads to very expensive costs, long waiting lines, and yes rationing (aka, death panels).

Besides the inefficiencies, there's a much greater problem most people don't consider. There's no recourse for patients under single-payer. Under private based insurance, you have remedies via the courts when you have a conflict with your insurance carrier. You can sue them if you have a case or believe a more expensive treatment is needed, etc. It happens obviously, no one should claim they're all angels. But you can't sue the government. There's no recourse if the bureaucrat on the other end of the phone call denies you coverage. End of story, the death panel has the final say.

I have a catastrophic insurance policy, which means I basically pay for all routine doctor visits and drugs. My relationship with my doctor has improved dramatically now that I pay. They explain options to me rather than just sending me to some place for a test because some third party is paying for it. It's a huge difference in quality and understanding of my medical care.

I think we have a stark difference on our opinion of what healthcare is.

According to what you've written, it looks like you believe healthcare is a commodity to be bought and sold. I, on the other hand, believe healthcare for all citizens is a fundamental human right.  A human right that every other civilized country has seemed to figure out.  But not here. 'Murica.

Quote from: Nikko on March 10, 2014, 09:00:41 PM
I prefer taking my CBN news with some bread and wine. 

I'm sure their 'bias' leans towards religious values, but for the most part, their stories seem pretty accurate.

Pretty accurate?  Yeah, denying climate change, denying evolution, and asserting that abortion causes breast cancer are all pretty accurate, right?





please tell me you don't actually watch CBN

They are like FOX news, except they don't hide under the guise of 'fair and balanced' and simply throw their religion in your face.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 11, 2014, 06:38:38 AM
I think we have a stark difference on our opinion of what healthcare is.

According to what you've written, it looks like you believe healthcare is a commodity to be bought and sold. I, on the other hand, believe healthcare for all citizens is a fundamental human right.  A human right that every other civilized country has seemed to figure out.  But not here. 'Murica.

Pretty accurate?  Yeah, denying climate change, denying evolution, and asserting that abortion causes breast cancer are all pretty accurate, right?

please tell me you don't actually watch CBN

They are like FOX news, except they don't hide under the guise of 'fair and balanced' and simply throw their religion in your face.

I believe healthcare is one of the most important and personal services we utilize. For this reason, I support as much choice and freedom as possible. I don't believe anyone should be coerced to buy a particular product or service they don't want and in many cases, simply don't need. Putting people in violation of a law with serious consequences when they can't afford this high priced product is unconscionable. A very strong majority of the American people agree with my stance on Obamacare, I believe even more would if most news outlets would report accurately regarding it. BTW, it's Obama himself who has labeled Obamacare a product. Either way, I don't see it as a basic human right. For one, no one is obligated to choose healthcare as their profession. Doctors and nurses aren't born, these professions are choices like any other profession. I believe it's a basic obligation to help those in immediate need of medical assistance and we do. I certainly don't feel it's a good thing Obamacare is driving many current doctors out of the profession and will certainly affect those who choose becoming doctors in the future.

I don't know if any of those videos are true or false. I'm agnostic regarding religion, I don't know if life is by design or some random process. Climate change isn't settle science so I don't know about that either. I tend to believe there is almost likely at any time natural climate change cycles and there could be some man made climate change. Is it as dire as predicted? I doubt it and the models the past 15 years have certainly been way off. My proposed model of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is about as accurate as most. Should we spend trillions on crony capitalism to defeat man made global warming? I don't believe so, I'd rather spend that money on more effective health insurance assistance for the most needy.

Regarding the civilized world, thanks to us they are civilized. Only the U.S. has kept the civilized world civilized. I don't see any European nations standing up to Russia, China, N. Korea, and Iran. Unfortunately, the U.S. isn't doing much any longer to keep the threats of these nations at bay, we're seeing the negative consequences of being weak.

I don't shut any news source out. I find listening to all sources most helpful. I recommend you watching Fox along with other sources. You could start a thread documenting all the 'falsehoods' you discover. 

Concerning the business of too much debt at the end of the money perhaps our feckless leaders might consider leading from the front rather than pushing from behind and become a shining example of patriotism rather than part of the problem. Imagine if you will how this representative form of government would react to the idea of term limits or a reduction in their own pay and benefits! Here are a few stats to ponder:

Warning this is obscene!

Salary of retired US Presidents... $180,000 for life.     
Salary of House/Senate...  $174,000 for life.
Salary of  Speaker of the House ....$223,500 for life.
Salary of  Majority/Minority Leader $193,400 for life.
     
Average Salary of a teacher... $40,065           
Average Salary of Soldier deployed in Afghanistan .. $38,000

Think about  this.

Nancy Pelosi will retire as a Congress Person at $174,000 Dollars a year for life.
She has already retired as speaker at $223,500 a year.     
Plus she will  receive an additional $193,400 a year as Minority Leader.
That's $803,700 Dollars a year for life including free medical which is  not available to the taxpayers. 
She is just one of the hundreds of Senators and Congress that float in and out every year!
 

Okay I got around to watching the video, cute and French, and irrelevent to the US. The only welfare state in the US is corporate welfare. The other entitlements are at anti-starvation levels, not luxury.

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on March 11, 2014, 11:27:35 AM
Okay I got around to watching the video, cute and French, and irrelevent to the US. The only welfare state in the US is corporate welfare. The other entitlements are at anti-starvation levels, not luxury.

I used to think that the filthy raggamuffin foul mouths down on the next block and their reprobate parents weren't my problem and that their crap wouldn't affect me and my family, but reality proved otherwise as their problems overflowed into our lives and affected us. Thats just a microcosm of the entire world, we can clearly see the ravages the entitlement mentality has had on France, and we can concede that the entitlement mentality of the haves and well as the needs of the have nots who for no fault of their own are lacking are long past becoming a problem here as well and it will continue until the excesses of this government is reigned in and their credit card is taken away.

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on March 11, 2014, 11:27:35 AM
Okay I got around to watching the video, cute and French, and irrelevent to the US. The only welfare state in the US is corporate welfare. The other entitlements are at anti-starvation levels, not luxury.

Yeah man!... 

Excuse me. Sorry. Erm. Canada? Gosh, pardon, sorry eh?
Um. We're doing pretty good, we have health care, our universities and colleges are not free, but they are subsidized and fairly accessible... and the economy is holding up rather well, in spite of the fact that our dollar is worth about $0.90, minimum wage is $11/hr. Ok, so taxes are higher than in the US, but we do get stuff back for that.

Rofl!

"Get off my lawn!"

Are there people who take advantage of the system?  Yes.  Does that mean we need to eliminate the system or cut it so deeply that people who truly need it are missing out?  No.

Do I like how that musician gets food stamps and he doesn't work?  Yes.  Contrary to the lyrics FOX so graciously soundbites, I would rather have him be fed than go out and 'steal and rob' (obvious satire) food from a citizen. 

But truly, if I had my way, anyone who gets government assistance like SNAP and isn't employed should have to commit to X hours of community service a week unless they are disabled/a veteran/a senior. X would have to be determined

Quote from: EllieM on March 11, 2014, 02:16:30 PM

Excuse me. Sorry. Erm. Canada? Gosh, pardon, sorry eh?
Um. We're doing pretty good, we have health care, our universities and colleges are not free, but they are subsidized and fairly accessible... and the economy is holding up rather well, in spite of the fact that our dollar is worth about $0.90, minimum wage is $11/hr. Ok, so taxes are higher than in the US, but we do get stuff back for that.

Hi Ellie,
      I live just north of Seattle and have noticed the mall parking lots are full of cars with Canadian License plates, people like to shop here because their dollar goes farther, same is true at the hospital and medical clinics, some would rather pay for services that they would be on a waiting list for in Canada. We did enjoy a nice visit to Vancouver recently, but it was more expensive then what we are used to here. I did have a friendly conversation with one Canadian who complained about being heavily taxed, and that is the crux of what the conversation is all about here, we don't want the government doling back to us and others what we have worked hard for here, we don't want them in our back pocket in the first place like they are there.

"The economists tell us that dollar-for-dollar there's more demand injected into the economy by unemployment insurance than almost anything you can name, food stamps being another one of those."
- Former Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, December 2012

Clearly then, by extrapolation, our economy will boom when everybody is unemployed and on welfare.

QuoteContrary to the lyrics FOX so graciously soundbites, I would rather have him be fed than go out and 'steal and rob' (obvious satire) food from a citizen. 

Seems like a distinction without a difference to me. Either way, surfer dude belongs in orange on a chain gang somewhere chopping weeds along the highway or similar such thing. Way things are going, he may want to run for public office somewhere, he has the right experience.

And oh yeah, "get off my lawn!"

Quote from: Nikko on March 11, 2014, 03:43:12 PM
Seems like a distinction without a difference to me. Either way, surfer dude belongs in orange on a chain gang somewhere chopping weeds along the highway or similar such thing. Way things are going, he may want to run for public office somewhere, he has the right experience.

And oh yeah, "get off my lawn!"

Why don't you become a leader in the DPRK? That way, the pesky hungry poor people wouldn't take any of your money, and any that don't work you can just send to prison labor camps. 

And FWIW, climate change is happening, humans are causing it, evolution is a fact, and science works.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 11, 2014, 08:59:39 PM
Why don't you become a leader in the DPRK? That way, the pesky hungry poor people wouldn't take any of your money, and any that don't work you can just send to prison labor camps. 

And FWIW, climate change is happening, humans are causing it, evolution is a fact, and science works.

I am an Earth Scientist.  Climate change is happening.  Climate change has always happened, long before human were an insignificant blip on this planet.  There is no such thing as a steady state climate.

The Earth reached 65-million year low in the last few hundred thousand years.  The paleontological record shows that in the Paleocene and Eocene, the ambient temperature of the Earth was as much as 20F/12C warmer as it is today.  Warm, moist, lush Earth.  Wish it were warmer!



Take a gander at what real science tells us ...

Kia Ora,

Just out of interest...How many "Onerous Warnings" has the US had to date ? 

Metta Anatta

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 11, 2014, 08:59:39 PM
Why don't you become a leader in the DPRK? That way, the pesky hungry poor people wouldn't take any of your money, and any that don't work you can just send to prison labor camps. 

And FWIW, climate change is happening, humans are causing it, evolution is a fact, and science works.

Leader of the DPRK eh? Hmmm... it would be a downward career move, but only if I get to be one of those machismos standing in the sunroofs of one of those fancy cars, it would need to be my car, and four weeks paid vacation.... and free healthcare... then, sure why not.    (seriously though, your comment seemed a little harsh no?  Surely we could all agree Surfer Dude shouldn't be eating lobster on our dime while flipping us the bird?  )

Quote from: Æðelþryð on March 11, 2014, 10:17:08 PM
I am an Earth Scientist.  Climate change is happening.  Climate change has always happened, long before human were an insignificant blip on this planet.  There is no such thing as a steady state climate.

The Earth reached 65-million year low in the last few hundred thousand years.  The paleontological record shows that in the Paleocene and Eocene, the ambient temperature of the Earth was as much as 20F/12C warmer as it is today.  Warm, moist, lush Earth.  Wish it were warmer!



Take a gander at what real science tells us ...

I almost wish I didn't mention climate change.  I won't digress this thread more by telling you how wrong you are, and how funny it is that conservatives follow the party line as far as denying science.  In short, I'm gonna go along with the what... 95% of climate scientists?

Quote from: Nikko on March 12, 2014, 12:55:23 AM
(seriously though, your comment seemed a little harsh no?  Surely we could all agree Surfer Dude shouldn't be eating lobster on our dime while flipping us the bird?  )

If he wants to spend his entire week's allotment on a couple lobster tails (it isn't evident that he bought that lobster himself with SNAP, btw, FOX just made it look like he did), why should it matter to you?  Should poor people be restricted to gruel and grits?

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 12, 2014, 06:15:15 AM
I almost wish I didn't mention climate change.  I won't digress this thread more by telling you how wrong you are, and how funny it is that conservatives follow the party line as far as denying science.  In short, I'm gonna go along with the what... 95% of climate scientists?

Funny.  I am a published author in peer-reviewed scientific journals, with a subspeciality in micropaleontology.

I am qualified by the Department of the Interior to offer "expert testimony" in court.  It went with my grade-level and C.V.

Do you have a college degree?

Quote
If he wants to spend his entire week's allotment on a couple lobster tails (it isn't evident that he bought that lobster himself with SNAP, btw, FOX just made it look like he did), why should it matter to you?  Should poor people be restricted to gruel and grits?

We might even conclude he caught the lobsters, but that would require work on his part, and well... uhm, anyway. 

What does it matter to me? He's hurting people by his actions. The national debt caused by wasted spending which goes way beyond fraud in the food stamp program, is threatening the prosperity of future generations, which aint me. So this isn't just some selfish emotion on my part, for one I'm not. Reducing this waste isn't going to lower my taxes, but it could end piling more debt on future Americans.

That's basically it, why it matters to me.

Quote from: Æðelþryð on March 12, 2014, 06:52:27 AM
Funny.  I am a published author in peer-reviewed scientific journals, with a subspeciality in micropaleontology.

I am qualified by the Department of the Interior to offer "expert testimony" in court.  It went with my grade-level and C.V.

Do you have a college degree?

I don't have a degree in any science. 

You have a degree in paleontology? Okay. That's not climatology. There are aspects of climate, yes, but it's not climatology. I can show you a handful of scientists who deny human caused climate change, but the vast majority of them are not climatologists.  Just like how i can show you scientists who don't accept biological evolution that aren't biologists. There are outliers of course, but I assume you get the point.