Quote from: Oriah on March 10, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
transitioning is a wonderful thing, but does it bother anyone else when traditional masculinity and femininity come under fire.  This is our culture.  "Man up" and deal with it.

I welcome a change. The world never stays the same and I like to think that we as humans have evolved a little over time. Traditional male/female roles are all rainbows and puppies for those who fall into those roles and enjoy them. However, an increasing number of people don't and/or don't want to. Everyone should live how they want, but I think as humans we can and should always question the world around us.

As far as it being "our culture"... I may be western and I am not ashamed in the least of being who I am. However, I don't want to ever come from a culture that cannot, does not and refuses to evolve. Culture is not a static thing; if it was we'd still be killing people over something as petty as pigmentation. Also, something may be cultural, but it can absolutely be wrong and hurtful. Ethics and culture do not go hand-in-hand, despite what some cultural relativists believe.

Quote from: Ayden on March 10, 2014, 11:07:05 PM
I welcome a change. The world never stays the same and I like to think that we as humans have evolved a little over time. Traditional male/female roles are all rainbows and puppies for those who fall into those roles and enjoy them. However, an increasing number of people don't and/or don't want to. Everyone should live how they want, but I think as humans we can and should always question the world around us.

As far as it being "our culture"... I may be western and I am not ashamed in the least of being who I am. However, I don't want to ever come from a culture that cannot, does not and refuses to evolve. Culture is not a static thing; if it was we'd still be killing people over something as petty as pigmentation. Also, something may be cultural, but it can absolutely be wrong and hurtful. Ethics and culture do not go hand-in-hand, despite what some cultural relativists believe.

Excellent post Ayden!! Of course I agree. Our culture needs a lot of changes, trans people are still killed, esp if they are trans women of color. Why would I want that cultural norm to continue? I have always believed social/cultural change is necessary. "Man up" seems to be a related norm to change.

I won't ever fit into what is a typical male anyway, not that I care much.
BTW, trans folks can be insensitively hit with these cultural norms and attitudes. I have an acquaintance who is a bit non-binary and somewhat tomboy, and she is a trans gal. All sorts of people have given her clothes and heels and so on suggesting she is not "female" enough. How is this healthy? Why do we need to keep these cultural norms which are not healthy? (If you want the heels thats' fine, not saying you shouldn't wear them.)

(BTW, there are times when one should "get it together"-- good suggestion!!)


--Jay

I can't remember ever having someone tell me to man up. The only things people have told me was, "You're so skinny. Eat more. Get bigger." lol.

I hadn't ever really thought of "man up" as being offensive. As some others mentioned earlier in the thread, if it was said to me, it would push me harder to do better. In all honesty, I am definitely not the person with the most empathy in the world. More like the complete opposite. I also don't get offended by ANYTHING, and as a result, I find it hard to see how something that doesn't offend me can offend someone else. While I still don't really get it on an emotional level, after reading 99% of this thread, I can see some ways it can be used that would offend those who do not fit the male stereotype. I have never used "man up" but the example mentioned by Nikotinic about using "gay" to say something sucked is something I got into a bad habit of using frequently. I see how it can be just as demeaning to tell someone to "man up", especially to women, even if not being said to them since it does imply that anything other than man (most people will only think "not man" = woman) is on a lower level.

At the same time though, I do think that it will take a long time for sexism like this to disappear. While it is important for people to start somewhere in going against saying things like "that's so gay" or "man up", I still think in the mean time, people are going to have to live with it. Through reading this thread I also think some people got a bit "too" offended. The reality is, people will continue to say "man up". Some will use it in a good way, others will use it in a demeaning way, but you're going to have to deal with it.

In my opinion, anyone telling someone to "man up" in a demeaning way probably has some issues of their own (as in insecurities) just like how so much homophobes turn out to be gay themselves. If someone says this to another person in a demeaning way, showing you don't care will show that you are sure enough of yourself not to give a rat's ass about their opinion on such a thing, and honestly, they probably won't say it to you again. If everyone did this, imagine? I never really had much of the woman's experience, so I can't really comment on that other than saying being successful in your career or whatever you want to do is the best way to show the world a woman can do anything.

tl;dr People are dumb.

@random dude--
Well in actuality no one has ever said this to me. I don't know anybody in my real life who would say this to me, but it could happen on line I suppose. I feel like it is a harmful concept/term (as are "be a man", etc.). Perhaps implying to some transguy that they are not quite masculine enough which could be harmful to them early transition, say. Or is used with a young boy who cries for some reason, and the dad says "man up". And so the kid learns that emotions like crying are not allowed for boys. I think it is useful to be aware of this sort of thing.

I don't see such phrases as motivating, though well if you are, you are a lot different than I am-- let's just say. I have seen it here. For instance, some guy says "I have a fear of needles" and someone has said, "man up". I can't see how this helps the guy with needle phobia. Or some guy is afraid of asking someone for a date and someone says "man up". I just don't see how this helps. Maybe some people are motivated by the recitation of certain key phrases, but it wouldn't work for me. I'm curious how this would work, I mean to be motivated by this, as I am obviously a lot different and might instead feel more rebellious.

Not everyone says these just because they are a jerk. Some people don't know what they are saying exactly. They are repeating memes that they have heard, just because they have heard them over and over, and don't really think that they could be toxic. I don't buy the notion that words don't hurt. In bullying usually words hurt a lot more than sticks and stones, to reverse the old saw. For instance, the people who say to people who are needle phobic, "well man up and just inject it already", aren't really thinking that what they say could hurt someone at worse and at best not be very helpful.

When some member here said "man up" related to the thread. I think it was "man up" and accept the culture as it is. I had a quite visceral reaction, which was a bit of anger. I think it might have been said in jest but that was my reaction, as I don't think one should accept the culture as it, but try and change things in so far as you can change your little piece of it. Though I agree society takes a long time to change, but if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.


--Jay

Quote from: Oriah on March 10, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
transitioning is a wonderful thing, but does it bother anyone else when traditional masculinity and femininity come under fire.\?  This is our culture.  "Man up" and deal with it.

I acknowledge that men and women are different and I don't reject all traditional masculinity and femininity. This one reflects a disrespect for the free will and agency of women and their ability to be strong and independent people. At the same time, it challenges the identities of men who may not fit a traditional role. It's particularly judgmental. It's basically saying "You're not a real man" (per my very biased notions of what that means).

So I'm not on a rampage to smash all gender qualities by any means. I try pick my battles wisely.

I don't mean to cause trouble, but... Telling a masculine man to "man up" also tells him that one thinks he is not man enough already.
Although I may be biased because I've been told stuff like that from people who were really not in a position to and the hypocrisy pissed me off.

Quote from: dalebert on March 11, 2014, 10:47:49 AM
I acknowledge that men and women are different and I don't reject all traditional masculinity and femininity. This one reflects a disrespect for the free will and agency of women and their ability to be strong and independent people. At the same time, it challenges the identities of men who may not fit a traditional role. It's particularly judgmental. It's basically saying "You're not a real man" (per my very biased notions of what that means).

So I'm not on a rampage to smash all gender qualities by any means. I try pick my battles wisely.

I don't always pick them *wisely*.
Nice short post though.

--Jay

Quote from: Edge on March 11, 2014, 01:27:47 PM
I don't mean to cause trouble, but... Telling a masculine man to "man up" also tells him that one thinks he is not man enough already.
Although I may be biased because I've been told stuff like that from people who were really not in a position to and the hypocrisy pissed me off.

(sorry.. sometimes I can't help but play devil's advocate) Not trying to start trouble either.. And this isn't intended as a personal response necessarily... I could have quoted many posts on this last page, but yours was short and made the points I was working off of.

This (the first half of your post) is exactly why it could be good motivation for a "manly man" who thinks of himself as such. 

Combining a few posts here, but say from the needle phobia example.. So this "manly man" is afraid of needles.  He has to go get blood drawn for some medical tests... pretty standard and nowadays considered pretty necessary in medical care.  Hes telling his buddy that he doesn't want to go, and his buddy tells him to man up.  This action motivates him to grit his teeth and go get blood drawn.  Not saying it will completely negate his fear of needles, but it may help motivate him in facing them now and in the future.  Same could work for any kind of phobia.  I could even see it being appropriately used as one person telling another to man up and just put on those heels and go out on stage to do a drag show. 

Social pressures motivate us in a lot of ways.  Some good... Some bad.

What really rings true to me, though, is the second half of your statement.  I know lots of people who have "trigger phrases" which set them off.  Many of them have nothing at all to do with gender, and more about the circumstances under which they have been used against them.  I imagine that many of the people who have posted negatively have had this phrase used against them in some manner.  I noticed some of the more angry posts previously were from androgynous or transwomen posters who would naturally take offense to something they've probably heard hundreds of time and been haunted by in their youth by terrible parents and the like. 

Not that its 100% the same (but I'd argue at least 50%), but I have a friend who gets her blood boiling over the word "bummer."  A simple enough phrase that is intended to cause no offense at all, but I imagine at some point in her past someone used that phrase to her when she really cared about something that didn't so much work out.  Sometimes it could be a phrase they heard during some traumatic event I won't bring up specifics, but we can all imagine such things. 

In all honesty, though, before I read this thread I always thought "man up" meant more of  "gather your forces" (like your army or whatnot) than being more of an actual man.  I still sort of think of it as such.  I'll probably still use it (though I'm not sure I actually have ever used it...).  Then again I'm with randomdude5... I don't really get offended too badly by much nowadays... dependent upon context of course.

[also... I have to admit this thread has been a great source of procrastination from my current ongoing finals week...]

"Man up."
A dismissive command with a putrid whiff of misogyny.

I don't use it. I lose a tiny bit of respect for people who do.

Quote from: GnomeKid on March 11, 2014, 05:06:38 PM

This (the first half of your post) is exactly why it could be good motivation for a "manly man" who thinks of himself as such. 

Combining a few posts here, but say from the needle phobia example.. So this "manly man" is afraid of needles.  He has to go get blood drawn for some medical tests... pretty standard and nowadays considered pretty necessary in medical care.  Hes telling his buddy that he doesn't want to go, and his buddy tells him to man up.  This action motivates him to grit his teeth and go get blood drawn.  Not saying it will completely negate his fear of needles, but it may help motivate him in facing them now and in the future.  Same could work for any kind of phobia.  I could even see it being appropriately used as one person telling another to man up and just put on those heels and go out on stage to do a drag show. 

Social pressures motivate us in a lot of ways.  Some good... Some bad.

What really rings true to me, though, is the second half of your statement.  I know lots of people who have "trigger phrases" which set them off.  Many of them have nothing at all to do with gender, and more about the circumstances under which they have been used against them.  I imagine that many of the people who have posted negatively have had this phrase used against them in some manner.  I noticed some of the more angry posts previously were from androgynous or transwomen posters who would naturally take offense to something they've probably heard hundreds of time and been haunted by in their youth by terrible parents and the like. 

Not that its 100% the same (but I'd argue at least 50%), but I have a friend who gets her blood boiling over the word "bummer."...

In all honesty, though, before I read this thread I always thought "man up" meant more of  "gather your forces" (like your army or whatnot) than being more of an actual man.  I still sort of think of it as such.  ...

[also... I have to admit this thread has been a great source of procrastination from my current ongoing finals week...]

Anyone with "needle phobia" who is motivated by "man up" doesn't actually have needle phobia. I agree that *some people* could be motivated by social pressure to do stuff. I would add that there are cis-men afraid of needles so this is not a "trans guy" thing in the slightest. Perhaps due to social pressures they might not talk about it much.

I agree that sometimes people have "issues" with certain phrases or types of phrases.
I think the fact that I am not entirely binary makes me sensitive to binary type terms like that. Though I don't think of myself as androgynous exactly. Its not hard to imagine how this phrase would seem particularly unpleasant/possibly triggering to trans women, who no doubt got the whole idea of being a man thrown in their faces.

Actually I think "manning up" forces might be the origin of this term which is a bit strange otherwise, if you think about it hard.


--Jay

Eh... Personally, if I had someone tell to "man up" to deal with something I was having trouble with, I'd be highly unpleasant to them. Not because of the phrase exactly, but to any dismissive response from people who judge me as weak and/or less.
I should point out that this is coming from someone who has a heck of a lot of masculine traits even though people tend to ignore them because they're the "bad" ones.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 07, 2014, 04:16:06 PM
There is a video about "man up" that I came across some time ago.  I found it very moving and extremely powerful.  It's one of those things that makes me think a lot about masculinity.  Maybe some people here will identify with it.  Here it is:

Everything after his first point was superfluous.

Quote from: aleon515 on March 11, 2014, 11:56:34 PM
Anyone with "needle phobia" who is motivated by "man up" doesn't actually have needle phobia. I agree that *some people* could be motivated by social pressure to do stuff. I would add that there are cis-men afraid of needles so this is not a "trans guy" thing in the slightest. Perhaps due to social pressures they might not talk about it much.

I agree that sometimes people have "issues" with certain phrases or types of phrases.
I think the fact that I am not entirely binary makes me sensitive to binary type terms like that. Though I don't think of myself as androgynous exactly. Its not hard to imagine how this phrase would seem particularly unpleasant/possibly triggering to trans women, who no doubt got the whole idea of being a man thrown in their faces.

Actually I think "manning up" forces might be the origin of this term which is a bit strange otherwise, if you think about it hard.


--Jay

I wasn't assuming the "manly man" in my example was trans (though he could be... wouldn't really change my point, and I disagree that social pressures can motivate someone to move past their fears.  Not that it would entirely dismiss them, but it can help push someone through a rough moment - for better or worse. 

I think I'll stand my my initial understanding of the phrase prior to this thread as "gathering ones forces" or "manning up".  I don't think its offensive in this light.  Obviously not everyone holds the same definition (or seemingly no one?), but it makes the most sense to me.

Quote from: GnomeKid on March 12, 2014, 09:40:59 AM
I think I'll stand my my initial understanding of the phrase prior to this thread as "gathering ones forces" or "manning up".  I don't think its offensive in this light.  Obviously not everyone holds the same definition (or seemingly no one?), but it makes the most sense to me.

You're right about what people mean by it, but you're completely missing the point. It's associating courage with men specifically and specifically NOT with women. The expectation on women is lowered and with lowered expectations comes lowered respect. The expectation on men is courage, which would be fine as a motivator if you just didn't gender it and didn't use it in a condescending or insulting manner. Sometimes it's used to insult and invalidate someone's behavior as not being manly enough but I acknowledge that it's not always. Either way, the phrasing itself is really sexist.

Quote from: dalebert on March 12, 2014, 09:50:42 AM
You're right about what people mean by it, but you're completely missing the point. It's associating courage with men specifically and specifically NOT with women. The expectation on women is lowered and with lowered expectations comes lowered respect. The expectation on men is courage, which would be fine as a motivator if you just didn't gender it and didn't use it in a condescending or insulting manner. Sometimes it's used to insult and invalidate someone's behavior as not being manly enough but I acknowledge that it's not always. Either way, the phrasing itself is really sexist.

The other thing is that the meaning of a word can change over time. For instance, a certain four letter word starting with "F" used to mean "to plant". "See it's okay if I use this word around my grandmother as it used to mean plant". See how far that gets you. Word ethnology is sometimes quite interesting, but doesn't always tell you what's going on today.

I agree that there are ways one could use this in a non-demeaning way, but it stretches the current meaning of the term. Same with "be a man". *Some* people might move past fears by being told this. I am not one of them, I guess.

I believe it's dismissive (along with Edge), I hope you will keep this in mind when you use some term like this around your buddies, who might not see it the way you do. I also definitely agree it's sexist, implying that women can't have courage and inner strength. (You obviously see quite the opposite on susans!!)


--Jay

Quote from: dalebert on March 12, 2014, 09:50:42 AM
You're right about what people mean by it, but you're completely missing the point. It's associating courage with men specifically and specifically NOT with women. The expectation on women is lowered and with lowered expectations comes lowered respect. The expectation on men is courage, which would be fine as a motivator if you just didn't gender it and didn't use it in a condescending or insulting manner. Sometimes it's used to insult and invalidate someone's behavior as not being manly enough but I acknowledge that it's not always. Either way, the phrasing itself is really sexist.

I'm far from missing that point.  I'd have to have not read any of the reply's up until now.  I just happen to not 100% agree.  I don't believe the phrase associates "courage with men specifically and specifically NOT with women."  It may associate courage with men, but it doesn't mention anything about women.  Its not the same as telling someone "don't be such a woman" when they're scared.  It is you who are assuming that not "manning up" means being innately womanly. 

These aren't facts, but opinions we're discussing.  Language is often objective and is almost always contextually defined.  Aaaand as I mentioned.. I was sort of merely playing devil's advocate as a form of procrastination I've never been able to resist a good debate.. I held fake debates with my friends in elementary school =p.  That being said my vocabulary is far from free of offensive phrases, and I'm sure it always will be.  I'm kind of with RandomDude5 on not getting offended easily.  As I also said... I'm not even sure I've ever used the phrase "man up."  Nor am I sure I ever will. 

I had no conception of the term as demeaning to women before this thread, and I'm sure many people in the outside world feel the same.  Not saying I'm going to go shouting it from the roof tops, but I don't think I'm going to be offended by it if someone says it to me.  To me it was not an outdated definition.  Unlike the F word planting comparison that was made which is clearly... quite outdated.  Its not like its from middle english or something. 

In truth, I care very little about this issue.  Don't get me wrong.  I love women, and am a complete equalist on that issue.  When it comes down to it I pretty much stand firm on my short and sweet (though maybe not to you) first post on this issue (first page.). 

GK, not saying *anything* about you personally when saying some term is condescending to women. I don't know that this is one that a lot of people think about.

I would disagree re: language being "objective", but I agree with context being important. I could say this in a very humorous sort of way and no one would take offense. It could also be said to a young boy growing up, and this would immediately take on a different tone.

I appreciate the "devil's advocate" position. I think this is a fun discussion.


--Jay

Nick Offerman's Rules of Manhood

Quote from: aleon515 on March 12, 2014, 06:15:06 PM
GK, not saying *anything* about you personally when saying some term is condescending to women. I don't know that this is one that a lot of people think about.

I would disagree re: language being "objective", but I agree with context being important. I could say this in a very humorous sort of way and no one would take offense. It could also be said to a young boy growing up, and this would immediately take on a different tone.

I appreciate the "devil's advocate" position. I think this is a fun discussion.


--Jay

Perhaps you are right.  (though I may argue that context can be objective, but I think that I won't) 

I appreciate your appreciation, and I truly do appreciate the point everyone has made thus far.  While this kind of PC nitpicking is a bit beyond me on the caring spectrum, I am glad there are people out there who think about it otherwise we as a society wouldn't have gotten as far as we have.  Aaaand with the high percentage of friends I have who are feminists (probably like 99%) I imagine at least half of them would smack me upside the head during this debate.  Doesn't mean I wouldn't attempt to have it with them.  I just get irked when people think explaining their position on a matter means that everyone has to conform to it.  Which seems to be what many people expect (not just on here). 

I shall now lay this to rest. 

Re: Can we pls never again say "man up"?

Personally, I don't think I've used the term much, if at all. But this thread has definitely made me think. I never thought about it being offensive before, but I probably won't use it now. There are other things I can say to try to motivate someone - which is the main point behind it, anyway?