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An Onerous Warning for The US

Started by Shantel, March 09, 2014, 12:55:10 PM

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Hikari

Quote from: Æðelþryð on March 12, 2014, 06:52:27 AM
Funny.  I am a published author in peer-reviewed scientific journals, with a subspeciality in micropaleontology.

I am qualified by the Department of the Interior to offer "expert testimony" in court.  It went with my grade-level and C.V.

Do you have a college degree?

It doesn't serve anyone to get into a pissing contest of how smart or qualified one is; you could be Steven Hawking and still get things wrong. Also, if you are saying that the actions of humans have no impact on climate change then you are in the minority of the scientific community no matter how right you think you are. I do however, consider it bad form regardless to go around asking people if they have a college degree with the implication that your paperwork makes you superior or somehow deprives others of their legitimacy of their opinions and positions.
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Shantel

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 11, 2014, 02:21:08 PM
Rofl!

"Get off my lawn!"

Are there people who take advantage of the system?  Yes.  Does that mean we need to eliminate the system or cut it so deeply that people who truly need it are missing out?  No.

Do I like how that musician gets food stamps and he doesn't work?  Yes.  Contrary to the lyrics FOX so graciously soundbites, I would rather have him be fed than go out and 'steal and rob' (obvious satire) food from a citizen. 

But truly, if I had my way, anyone who gets government assistance like SNAP and isn't employed should have to commit to X hours of community service a week unless they are disabled/a veteran/a senior. X would have to be determined


Another Entrepreneur Lost! Larmondo "Flair" Allen died Feb 7th of gunshot wounds
on Martin Luther King Blvd.

It seems that every couple of days New Orleans loses one of its treasured
ENTREPRENEURS.

He was 25 and had 3 sons and 6 daughters.
NINE welfare recipients collecting $950 each.......

That equals $8,550 a month!
Now add Food Stamps,
Free medical, Free school lunches, and on and on
Do the math...$102,000+ /year.

A HUNDRED GRAND doing nothing.
Now that, to me, is a real Entrepreneur.
(ALSO, BECAUSE OF THEIR FATHERS DEATH, ALL OF THE KIDS WILL COLLECT
SOCIAL SECURITY UNTIL THEY ARE 18)
EVEN BETTER...IF "FLAIR'S"
THIRTEEN BROTHERS & SISTERS
FOLLOWED HIS ENTREPRENEURIAL
STRATEGY--THAT'S AN ADDITIONAL
$1.3 MILLION PER YEAR
BUT WAIT...THERE'SMORE!
IF ALL THIRTEEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS CAN
DUPLICATE HIS FEAT OF 9 WELFARE STRATEGISTS
THAT BREEDS 117 NEW RECIPIENTS COLLECTING $100,000/YR!...OR AN ADDITIONAL
$11,700,000 PER YEAR...
And, THAT'S ONE FAMILY!
(And demands 100% the Taxes Paid by 1,000avg. Taxpayers)
And THAT is why this once great country of U.S.A. Is
BANKRUPT!
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Hideyoshi

Auntie Shan, that's a problem with education, not with our welfare system. The education that conservatives are always excited to cut.

And again, I would rather have those kids get money each month instead of just letting them loose on the street.  Do you not see how disregard for the poor leads to violent crime? Do you think those nine kids have bootstraps to pull up?
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Shantel

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 12, 2014, 01:28:36 PM
Auntie Shan, that's a problem with education, not with our welfare system. The education that conservatives are always excited to cut.

And again, I would rather have those kids get money each month instead of just letting them loose on the street.  Do you not see how disregard for the poor leads to violent crime? Do you think those nine kids have bootstraps to pull up?

Yeah honey they do and they can, it's a matter of the will. There are stories all the time about young people with loser parents who have drug and alcohol problems who have bought into victim status as adults, the kids refuse to follow in their train and set their minds to dig their way out and into the sunlight of personal success. Some children of adversity have become a great example of a can-do mentality. Sure there are folks who have awful physical, mental and socialization problems that struggle and don't do well on their own and we do need to help them, but deadbeats like the one in the article don't deserve any help, because it becomes nothing more than an enabling program for types like him to continue doing nothing but sucking off the welfare teet. My gut feeling about that particular fellow was that he acquired his fatal gunshot wounds in the progress of some anti-social act.
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amZo

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 12, 2014, 01:28:36 PM
Auntie Shan, that's a problem with education, not with our welfare system. The education that conservatives are always excited to cut.

And again, I would rather have those kids get money each month instead of just letting them loose on the street.  Do you not see how disregard for the poor leads to violent crime? Do you think those nine kids have bootstraps to pull up?

There's nothing wrong with being poor and it doesn't cause crime. I grew up in a dirt poor family, that didn't turn us into violent thieves. Crime is a problem with lack of character, little empathy for others, and often an over-inflated sense of self which leads to an entitlement mentality.

Most everyone has great potential.
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amZo

Quote from: Shantel on March 12, 2014, 11:31:15 AM

Another Entrepreneur Lost! Larmondo "Flair" Allen died Feb 7th of gunshot wounds
on Martin Luther King Blvd.

It seems that every couple of days New Orleans loses one of its treasured
ENTREPRENEURS.

He was 25 and had 3 sons and 6 daughters.
NINE welfare recipients collecting $950 each.......

That equals $8,550 a month!
Now add Food Stamps,
Free medical, Free school lunches, and on and on
Do the math...$102,000+ /year.

A HUNDRED GRAND doing nothing.
Now that, to me, is a real Entrepreneur.
(ALSO, BECAUSE OF THEIR FATHERS DEATH, ALL OF THE KIDS WILL COLLECT
SOCIAL SECURITY UNTIL THEY ARE 18)
EVEN BETTER...IF "FLAIR'S"
THIRTEEN BROTHERS & SISTERS
FOLLOWED HIS ENTREPRENEURIAL
STRATEGY--THAT'S AN ADDITIONAL
$1.3 MILLION PER YEAR
BUT WAIT...THERE'SMORE!
IF ALL THIRTEEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS CAN
DUPLICATE HIS FEAT OF 9 WELFARE STRATEGISTS
THAT BREEDS 117 NEW RECIPIENTS COLLECTING $100,000/YR!...OR AN ADDITIONAL
$11,700,000 PER YEAR...
And, THAT'S ONE FAMILY!
(And demands 100% the Taxes Paid by 1,000avg. Taxpayers)
And THAT is why this once great country of U.S.A. Is
BANKRUPT!

:icon_yikes:

Holy cow!

If you want more of something, throw money at it. I'd say this problem with welfare is designed to do exactly what it's doing. Looks to me it's created nine future voters for a certain political party.

This makes Surfer Dude's lobster dinners look amateurish. I know, we need a government program to help people like Surfer Dude to screw the system more effectively.  ::)

I'm afraid to know how much of this is really occurring.
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Hideyoshi



Quote from: Nikko on March 12, 2014, 03:36:11 PM
There's nothing wrong with being poor and it doesn't cause crime. I grew up in a dirt poor family, that didn't turn us into violent thieves. Crime is a problem with lack of character, little empathy for others, and often an over-inflated sense of self which leads to an entitlement mentality.

Most everyone has great potential.

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 12, 2014, 01:28:36 PM
that's a problem with education, not with our welfare system. The education that conservatives are always excited to cut.
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amZo

Many are excited to cut poor performing education and give parent's choice. For someone that so vehemently espouses spending a lot of other people's money on education, you simply appear to display little interest in knowledge or learning. As Ronald Reagan is famous for saying, 'it's not that the Left doesn't know anything, the problem is they know so much that isn't so."  Not trying to be insulting, but I believe this applies in your case. It's obvious we'll continue to talk past one another, not my desire, but I'll excuse myself from this 'discussion' now. Well, it's been a joy.  ;)
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Hideyoshi

Quote from: Nikko on March 12, 2014, 07:53:01 PM
'it's not that the Left doesn't know anything, the problem is they know so much that isn't so'

I could change 'left' to 'right' and it would apply just fine. Conservatism reeks of fear and ignorance.  Resistant to change due to a nearly unshakable ideology of 'not in my back yard.'  No room or desire for progress.  It's the ideology of the dark ages.

BTW, saying I have little interest in learning simply because I don't agree with your ideology is insulting, but I don't bruise easily, and I don't hold my sharp tongue.  I am contrary to what you think I am.  Being learned makes you accept things like climate change and other scientific facts about the world around us, and not reject them because of some black helicopter evil liberal conspiracy. 

Edit:

Quote from: Nikko on March 11, 2014, 08:12:03 AM
Regarding the civilized world, thanks to us they are civilized.

btw, I am still shaking my head at this hilariously false statement. Tell me more about how I have no interest in knowledge
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Shantel

Chill out chillun, we can all chat and make it fun and entertaining! Here's one for you to gnaw on:

The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing this year the greatest amount of free Meals and Food Stamps ever to 47 million people, these are the most recent figures available in 2013.
Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for the policy is because "The animals will grow dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves".
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HelenW

I'm not sure I understand how my criticism of a television network founded by and run on the principles of Pat Robertson was understood by some as a kind of personal criticism of Christians or Christianity.  That was certainly not my intention.

I have some major issues with some of the things Pat Robertson has said on his TV show, the 700 Club, and find that much of the editorial content and direction of the news service his network provides is geared toward right wing memes, including anti-TLBG messages promoted both by commission and omission in the stories they present.  I have found the points of view that emanate from his network to be demeaning and prejudicial to myself, personally, as a lesbian, and globally in a clear anti-LGBT bias.

This is not a criticism of Christianity.  I grew up in a Christian household and participated in everything from Sunday School, to Religious Instruction Classes to confirmation and church attendance until I was 16 years old.  I did come to know a few, unfortunately too few, people who can be called true followers of Christ.  That said, it's not the religion as a whole, or its followers, that I condemn.  It's Pat Robertson's version of it I cannot agree with and his TV network reflects his dogma.
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amZo

QuoteConservatism reeks of fear and ignorance.  Resistant to change due to a nearly unshakable ideology of 'not in my back yard.'  No room or desire for progress.  It's the ideology of the dark ages.

BTW, saying I have little interest in learning simply because I don't agree with your ideology is insulting, but I don't bruise easily, and I don't hold my sharp tongue.  I am contrary to what you think I am.  Being learned makes you accept things like climate change and other scientific facts about the world around us, and not reject them because of some black helicopter evil liberal conspiracy.

Hideyoshi, would you do me a favor and look at your quote above, do you ever listen to yourself?

Speaking of insults, I gave you a sincere assessment I have of you because I think it could benefit if you allow it. I didn't do so based on our difference in beliefs, but rather the repeated negative tone of your posts.  You state opinion as fact and refuse to hear otherwise. You've insulted me numerous times, you're dripping with ad hominem attacks that make any worthwhile discussion very difficult if not impossible.

It's my hope you consider this, no hard feelings.

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Hideyoshi

Quote from: Nikko on March 13, 2014, 12:40:31 AM
you're dripping with ad hominem attacks that make any worthwhile discussion very difficult if not impossible.

ad hominem is when you attack someone instead of their argument as a basis for your argument. 

For example, if I form an argument like this, it's ad hominem:

P1: You are an idiot
P2: All idiots are wrong about X
C1: Therefore, you are wrong about X

Note: This argument is valid, but not sound because it is fallacious.  There is no justification given as to why all idiots are wrong about X.

Another, more common example would be

P1: You are an idiot
P2: You are a moron
C1: Therefore, you are wrong

This argument is neither valid nor sound, and it is also fallacious. The conclusion does not follow from the premise(s).

Note: you can BE all 3 of those things, an idiot, a moron, and wrong, but forming an argument in such a way is fallacious (ad hominem is a fallacy).

If I just call you an idiot, but don't conclude that you are wrong merely because of that, it's NOT ad hominem.

I can attack your arguments on moral grounds, which isn't the most objective thing, but it's not ad hominem to label your views as ignorant, apathetic, near-sighted, selfish, etc.
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Shantel

Quote from: HelenW on March 12, 2014, 10:55:07 PM
I did come to know a few, unfortunately too few, people who can be called true followers of Christ.  That said, it's not the religion as a whole, or its followers, that I condemn.  It's Pat Robertson's version of it I cannot agree with and his TV network reflects his dogma.

Hi Helen!
       Had you said Pat Robertson and the 700 Club right up front I would have understood where you were coming from right away, we're on the same page there sister!.
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amZo

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 13, 2014, 06:55:05 AM
ad hominem is when you attack someone instead of their argument as a basis for your argument. 

For example, if I form an argument like this, it's ad hominem:

P1: You are an idiot
P2: All idiots are wrong about X
C1: Therefore, you are wrong about X

Note: This argument is valid, but not sound because it is fallacious.  There is no justification given as to why all idiots are wrong about X.

Another, more common example would be

P1: You are an idiot
P2: You are a moron
C1: Therefore, you are wrong

This argument is neither valid nor sound, and it is also fallacious. The conclusion does not follow from the premise(s).

Note: you can BE all 3 of those things, an idiot, a moron, and wrong, but forming an argument in such a way is fallacious (ad hominem is a fallacy).

If I just call you an idiot, but don't conclude that you are wrong merely because of that, it's NOT ad hominem.

I can attack your arguments on moral grounds, which isn't the most objective thing, but it's not ad hominem to label your views as ignorant, apathetic, near-sighted, selfish, etc.


I'll take that as you don't plan to consider it.

In the interest of knowledge and learning...

Definition of AD HOMINEM:

1. appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect; to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason

2. marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made





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Hideyoshi

Quote from: Nikko on March 13, 2014, 11:07:53 AM

I'll take that as you don't plan to consider it.

In the interest of knowledge and learning...

Definition of AD HOMINEM:

1. appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect; to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason

2. marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

Read what I typed explaining what ad hominem is. I tutored logic over the course of two years and didn't have to look up ad hominem to actually know what it was.

Because you don't agree with my views doesn't mean my reasoning isn't based in intellect (see definition 1)

If i call you an idiot -in place- of an argument (see definition 2) that's ad hominem.

Am i trying to say that I've never used a fallacy or I'm some pinnacle of logical prowess? No.  I've probably been borderline on a couple posts because I don't believe it's necessary to adhere to strict argumentative guidelines when arguing informally on the internet. Plus, I definitely call out absurdity and falsehoods as such and do not censor myself.
All i can type right now I'm at work
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amZo

Quote from: Hideyoshi on March 13, 2014, 12:00:46 PM
Read what I typed explaining what ad hominem is. I tutored logic over the course of two years and didn't have to look up ad hominem to actually know what it was.

Because you don't agree with my views doesn't mean my reasoning isn't based in intellect (see definition 1)

If i call you an idiot -in place- of an argument (see definition 2) that's ad hominem.

Am i trying to say that I've never used a fallacy or I'm some pinnacle of logical prowess? No.  I've probably been borderline on a couple posts because I don't believe it's necessary to adhere to strict argumentative guidelines when arguing informally on the internet. Plus, I definitely call out absurdity and falsehoods as such and do not censor myself.
All i can type right now I'm at work



Edit: I'm curious why you changed your post, originally you had some very descriptive adjectives for the word 'idiot' above, as though it was a veiled insult towards me. Probably not a good thing to suggest in a post defending against ad hominem insults? I suspected you were doing this when I first read it, but didn't say anything. But the edit really has me curious. Okay, now I've officially beat this horse thread to death. Now I'm done.  :D

I'll give you the last word.  :)
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Sarah Louise

I think you've taken things as far as they need to go.

Let's move on now.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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EllieM

Quote from: Shantel on March 11, 2014, 02:51:42 PM
Hi Ellie,
      I live just north of Seattle and have noticed the mall parking lots are full of cars with Canadian License plates, people like to shop here because their dollar goes farther, same is true at the hospital and medical clinics, some would rather pay for services that they would be on a waiting list for in Canada. We did enjoy a nice visit to Vancouver recently, but it was more expensive then what we are used to here. I did have a friendly conversation with one Canadian who complained about being heavily taxed, and that is the crux of what the conversation is all about here, we don't want the government doling back to us and others what we have worked hard for here, we don't want them in our back pocket in the first place like they are there.


Well, you raise an interesting point, Shantel.
Let's cover the commodities first. For some reason, things are more expensive here, yes. A few years ago, I was in the market for a freezer. I noted that the model here in Southern Ontario (near Detroit) was 20% higher in cost than the same model in Detroit. I thought that was odd, given that the dollar was at par. "Shipping, maybe?" I mused... I check the price for the same item in Anchorage AK, guess what! Zaklee same like MoTown! Ok. Not shipping. After questioning the US office of the chain that sold this item and being told that it was shipping, I asked about Alaska and was dismissed. So. Things are more costly here because they can get away with it. There is a line item in our next federal budget that is supposed to deal with that.

Let's get to clinics. I can tell you that here in Ontario, the wait times are not so bad. There are some procedures which have higher wait times, for sure, but nothing life-threatening is compromised by waits. (times, not Tom). There are some things I would travel for and pay for, (eg FFS, Vocal Folds shortening) but my personal experience has not been negative here. Yes, I do have something to compare it with, we didn't have socialized medicine  here when I was younger.

Vancouver expensive? Got that right! It's more expensive than Toronto, for sure! I don't think I could afford to buy a condo there, much less a house! It's the blind men and the elephant, you know? You were examining the trunk and declaring a elephant to be snake-like.

A Canadian complaining about taxes... it's a national sport here, like obsessing over the weather. I used to do that too until our current government got their (our) spending under better control. Too bad they can't fix the weather...

I understand that you don't want your government sucking you dry and digging a deeper hole. I get that. From "up here" what I see is excessive spending by Washington on things that don't need to cost so much and political favours driving that silliness. You know, the real reason for the controversy about the Enbridge pipeline is railroad money, not the ecology. There are some very wealthy people in the US who are orchestrating this, but they mean no specific harm, they just wish to accumulate more wealth and don't give a damn about who falls beneath Juggernaut. You have 10 times Canada's population there. You would think that the difference in economic scale would bring certain cost efficiencies in terms of  infrastructure and services, but there is some kind of disconnect there. Believe me, Shantel, I am completely in favour of "pull your own weight", I have always managed to find work. I think there are a lot of different forces there generating the problem, the problem which is not A problem, but rather the symptom of a complex of problems. Part of it is multigenerational welfare families, people institutionalized by their own sloth and self-victimization. Part of it is unchecked greed and feelings of self-entitlement, as exemplified by the mortgage crisis of 2007. Ross Perot's "Giant sucking sound" admonition was like shutting the barn door after the horses had bolted.  Where did the American textile industry go? Oh yeah, same place as the clothing industry, the electronics industry, the tool and die industry... it got Shanghai'd, literally.

Yes, other parts of the problem remain to be explored, let me finish with one more, the problem of government corruption. Now, I didn't just fall off the apple cart my dear, and I certainly don't think that it is possible to have government completely free of corruption and non-duplicitous politicians. Politics, by its very nature, is a nasty business. I am not going to point any fingers, and I must emphasize that this is not a partisan issue, it crosses party lines seamlessly, but I urge you if you have not already done so, to have a good look at the associates of your representatives. A good sense of humour will help you survive that adventure ;)

I hope you have not found any of this to be offensive, I'm just trying to point out that the issue is very complex, bigger than a breadbox.
Let me leave you with this: You have a fine country there, the US of A, even with its warts. Hang on to it. And by the way, I have to say, I truly adore your Second Amendment, preserve it carefully.

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Hikari

Prices in Canada are also inflated by the cost of logistics. As someone in that line of work, just imagine not only is your country incredibly less dense than the United States (it is like only having the population of California spread out in all 50 states), but is costs more to pay truckers in Canada, since the job is considered more difficult with Canada's climate. Not only that but the infrastructure simply isn't as developed because there isn't the population base to support it, meaning more trips down roads that will slow trucks down....

My point being the logistical issues are mostly private sector concerns (I am not sure how much the public sector in the form of diesel taxes, etc impact it since I don't have to worry about those costs even if I drive in Canada), and that only scratches the surface of one industry. It is a very complex situation that makes a modern economy.
私は女の子 です!My Blog - Hikari's Transition Log http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,377.0.html
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