Something that frustrates me a lot when I long to detransition is the issue of men and expressed femininity. I mean the not-okay-ness of it. In a perfect world I can see me presenting as this beautiful cis boy with long, silky hair, some tasteful makeup, at least a femme inspired wardrobe (personally I love and wear lots of pastels for example. it's not that I hate properly nice menswear and fashionable guys make me happy. I just hate how restricted it is) and in general just freely participating in all my female dominated hobbies (esp the fashion related ones) I basically want to be me without having to be trans.

But it's so bleak. There's not really a place for someone like that is there. I have cis female friends who I know would accept me but the public is a different story. And what is someone like me supposed to do? There's no role models or people like this to set a precedent for it being okay bc ultimately it isn't OK to most people still. And if there is someone like that, it has to be their one thing. You can't just happen to be like that and still incidentally be a person who is just living like. I mean it practically has to be political. In reality, the most feminine guys are just usually tastefully male. They are not really allowed to be feminine in their daily life. And I know that I'd not pass ever anyway with this presentation so it's to the point where it's like being trans is inescapable. Even if I want to not be, people will assume I am if they know I'm a boy.

What majorly frustrates me a lot is the double standard. A cis woman can openly be the exact reverse of this, even down to wearing men's clothes and many are. I mean it happens and they can be that and find a place in the world. But for men it doesn't really happen does it. Certainly not as a grown adult...

It's just the worst feeling to be trans because you feel like you're not allowed to be cis and yourself. I get so mad at myself and feel so wrong and fake and start getting determined to finally detransition but I can never actually do it. Sorry if this is more like a rant, I just wanted to talk about this :c

QuoteAnd if there is someone like that, it has to be their one thing. You can't just happen to be like that and still incidentally be a person who is just living like. I mean it practically has to be political.

I never thought about it before, but yeah I see what you mean.

QuoteIt's just the worst feeling to be trans because you feel like you're not allowed to be cis and yourself. I get so mad at myself and feel so wrong and fake and start getting determined to finally detransition but I can never actually do it. Sorry if this is more like a rant, I just wanted to talk about this :c

That does sound awful. I know you've talked before about not transitioning because you feel like a woman so much as being feminine. Is that part of this? A lot of transitioners do have a strong identity towards their transitioned sex and that's what drives them. But I don't think everyone feels that way. You've had a successful transition. You're not a fake.
I'm not sure whether I'm wording this right. But do you feel like de-transitioning because you feel fake because you don't feel you have the identity of a woman? Or is it because you really feel like a guy? There's a subtle but important difference. Or is it kind of missing life as a guy? I have those days. There are things I miss about living as a woman. Things that were easier. Part of which is just familiarity.

my life as a woman is getting a little weird, because i some times forget to act "normal". when i do that, people look at me rather dumbfounded, as if i were some kind of alien. women don't talk like i naturally do. but in the end, i just can't make myself care too much. people will get used to it if i don't change too much too soon.

i do see how it can feel somewhat impossible to just be an extremely femme guy without pretty much making it a political statement. but i still believe it's possible. i know this guy who makes his own fashion statements, without caring about politics. currently works as a makeup artist for oriflame, and even the seriously conservative people here have come to accept him as they've realized that's just the way he is. this isn't a too violent society though, so i can't say much about safety problems you may face, but otherwise, i believe you'll find even better friends by being yourself if you really dare to take that step.

Quote from: FA on March 04, 2014, 07:58:42 AM
I never thought about it before, but yeah I see what you mean.

That does sound awful. I know you've talked before about not transitioning because you feel like a woman so much as being feminine. Is that part of this? A lot of transitioners do have a strong identity towards their transitioned sex and that's what drives them. But I don't think everyone feels that way. You've had a successful transition. You're not a fake.
I'm not sure whether I'm wording this right. But do you feel like de-transitioning because you feel fake because you don't feel you have the identity of a woman? Or is it because you really feel like a guy? There's a subtle but important difference. Or is it kind of missing life as a guy? I have those days. There are things I miss about living as a woman. Things that were easier. Part of which is just familiarity.

Heya FA. Well... it's like, I actually don't miss life as a guy in a lot of senses. Well not that I really experienced it much, I was unfortunately kept really isolated right up until I moved out and transitioned. I don't feel particularly like a boy so much as that is how I was born and I feel like I am putting so much emotional energy into not being a boy that it's not worth it at all, it just makes me depressed and want to forget about the whole thing, stop taking the pills, stop changing legal things and thinking about what to tell people about who I am and about my past and stuff. What I miss the most is feeling natural and like, as is. I just, I don't know if it's just me but ican't live like this forever I mean it's super clear to me that internally I do not feel like a man or a woman, so it seems really ridiculous to have to do so much to be legally a woman. Especially if I am gonna have SRS, like oh my god... all this stuff when i know that if it were just about who I am, not thinking about how people would treat me or practical concerns I would definitely be just as happy as a femme gay boy, Probably happier bc I would 't have to feel like a bad imitation, just me. It's just confusing because I need to sort of live in a woman's life with how people are. :/

Admittedly a lot of the problem is not having the ability to pass normally as a guy.. I still haven't found any evidence that I even can pass as a guy while presenting at all femininely. Idk, it's just never happened, before or after hormones and I'm feeling pretty certain it never would. So not sure what i would do about that.

Quote from: Taka on March 04, 2014, 08:08:25 AM
my life as a woman is getting a little weird, because i some times forget to act "normal". when i do that, people look at me rather dumbfounded, as if i were some kind of alien. women don't talk like i naturally do. but in the end, i just can't make myself care too much. people will get used to it if i don't change too much too soon.

i do see how it can feel somewhat impossible to just be an extremely femme guy without pretty much making it a political statement. but i still believe it's possible. i know this guy who makes his own fashion statements, without caring about politics. currently works as a makeup artist for oriflame, and even the seriously conservative people here have come to accept him as they've realized that's just the way he is. this isn't a too violent society though, so i can't say much about safety problems you may face, but otherwise, i believe you'll find even better friends by being yourself if you really dare to take that step.

That's so cool. I wish i could do that but yeah where I live is tricky. You are in Norway right? I can't remember. Anyway America is pretty different, idk. I keep thinking maybe someday in the right area of a big city, but right now where i live is pretty blue collar and I have never seen a guy here present with an ounce of femininity.

Does that guy pass as a boy consistently? Like does he have a lot of issues with it or? What kind of fashion statements if it's ok to ask? (: I'm super curious.

Also yeah, I totally know what you mean about people looking at you like an alien. I was so traumatized by this therapist i was seeing as a boy who week after week would just not drop the issue of my gender. She made me feel like a specimen. People were mostly weirded out by my appearance though, I was way too shy then for anyone to really get to know me or my mannerisms and stuff. But gender always came up somehow. Like either I was too small or or it was weird that I had long hair or invasive questions about my sexuality. And that was when I was just kind of presenting as a sort of preppy boy, nothing too unusual... I was so tired of it and really I just felt and feel fed up with gender but being trans didn't make that go away at all :c

Move to a more open/progressive city. People move all the time, for all sorts of reasons and I've seen many people do it on a shoestring budget and many various circumstances. If you went to Los Angeles, or Portland, or a number of other cities where the bulk of the population does not look at people who are different like they're aliens then you would probably be much happier just living your life.

I don't know what type of job you do but certain jobs also afford a lot of leeway in the appearance department. Near where I'm at there's a guy at the Macy's makeup counter that fully wears make up, does his hair, has nice outfits (that are not normal menswear) and everyone just accepts that's who he is. When I lived in L.A., I often had a "alternative" appearance and no one really batted an eyelash at me. And when I got to Portland, I see all manner of individuals with a wide variety of styles and appearances and everyone seems very accepting. Those are my own personal observations/experiences so I feel I can comment on those two cities in particular.

The other thing is that you have to build confidence to be yourself when that self is outside normal parameters. I'm actually a shy, introverted empath but I've learned over the years that it doesn't do me any favors to not have confidence in myself and the way I present myself. It took awhile to build that confidence and you have to find your own unique way of building confidence. I can't tell you, "do this and you will build confidence" so that's the other tricky part. For me, it was acknowledging many things about myself and experimenting with my appearance.

Remember that individuals who are the type who would attack (verbally or physically) someone else for being different is generally a weak individual themselves (or has other internalized issues) or they are the type who senses weakness in others (similar to how criminals choose victims) and exploit that. If you can build inner strength and confidence, it actually shows. I've actually noticed some people will come to respect another individual for being themselves and not caving to the status quo.

Quote from: sad panda on March 04, 2014, 11:12:09 AM
Heya FA. Well... it's like, I actually don't miss life as a guy in a lot of senses. Well not that I really experienced it much, I was unfortunately kept really isolated right up until I moved out and transitioned. I don't feel particularly like a boy so much as that is how I was born and I feel like I am putting so much emotional energy into not being a boy that it's not worth it at all, it just makes me depressed and want to forget about the whole thing, stop taking the pills, stop changing legal things and thinking about what to tell people about who I am and about my past and stuff. What I miss the most is feeling natural and like, as is. I just, I don't know if it's just me but ican't live like this forever I mean it's super clear to me that internally I do not feel like a man or a woman, so it seems really ridiculous to have to do so much to be legally a woman. Especially if I am gonna have SRS, like oh my god... all this stuff when i know that if it were just about who I am, not thinking about how people would treat me or practical concerns I would definitely be just as happy as a femme gay boy, Probably happier bc I would 't have to feel like a bad imitation, just me. It's just confusing because I need to sort of live in a woman's life with how people are. :/

Admittedly a lot of the problem is not having the ability to pass normally as a guy.. I still haven't found any evidence that I even can pass as a guy while presenting at all femininely. Idk, it's just never happened, before or after hormones and I'm feeling pretty certain it never would. So not sure what i would do about that.

Quote from: Taka on March 04, 2014, 08:08:25 AM
my life as a woman is getting a little weird, because i some times forget to act "normal". when i do that, people look at me rather dumbfounded, as if i were some kind of alien. women don't talk like i naturally do. but in the end, i just can't make myself care too much. people will get used to it if i don't change too much too soon.

i do see how it can feel somewhat impossible to just be an extremely femme guy without pretty much making it a political statement. but i still believe it's possible. i know this guy who makes his own fashion statements, without caring about politics. currently works as a makeup artist for oriflame, and even the seriously conservative people here have come to accept him as they've realized that's just the way he is. this isn't a too violent society though, so i can't say much about safety problems you may face, but otherwise, i believe you'll find even better friends by being yourself if you really dare to take that step.

That's so cool. I wish i could do that but yeah where I live is tricky. You are in Norway right? I can't remember. Anyway America is pretty different, idk. I keep thinking maybe someday in the right area of a big city, but right now where i live is pretty blue collar and I have never seen a guy here present with an ounce of femininity.

Does that guy pass as a boy consistently? Like does he have a lot of issues with it or? What kind of fashion statements if it's ok to ask? (: I'm super curious.

Also yeah, I totally know what you mean about people looking at you like an alien. I was so traumatized by this therapist i was seeing as a boy who week after week would just not drop the issue of my gender. She made me feel like a specimen. People were mostly weirded out by my appearance though, I was way too shy then for anyone to really get to know me or my mannerisms and stuff. But gender always came up somehow. Like either I was too small or or it was weird that I had long hair or invasive questions about my sexuality. And that was when I was just kind of presenting as a sort of preppy boy, nothing too unusual... I was so tired of it and really I just felt and feel fed up with gender but being trans didn't make that go away at all :c

Hey hon 

It might help to break this down. Rather than focusing on the whole thing, the whole either or thing, try to figure out how you feel about each aspect. It sounds like you aren't really tied to a male or female identity. And I can see how doing the full nine yards transition wise can seem overwhelming and really not that palatable if it's something your heart isn't really in.

How do you feel about HRT on its own? Do you like the effects? If it wasn't about being male or female, would you rather be on E or T?

How about SRS? Do you have a lot of bottom dysphoria? Is it something you really want or does it just sort of seem to come with the package?

What about the legalities? have you changed your name and do you prefer it? If not, do you like your birth name? I'm guessing by your post you haven't changed your gender markers yet.


As for the 'imitation' thing you mention, I think I know what you mean. I'm going to try to word this right - When you change your body and identity, you're sort of leaving behind your natural state. And you're never going to be the same as other people your gender. Not in body or life experiences. Obviously, we're not any less than cis men and women, just not the same. But we may sometimes feel 'fake'. For me, this feeling mostly comes from thinking others would think if they knew. I don't care that I wasn't born male (not as whole anyway, there are some things about it that bother me). But sometimes I do feel like an imposter around cis men and women. And I shy away from people wanting to be friends. Once I get close to someone that doesn't know, I get nervous. Would these guys want to hang out if they knew? Would those girls still have a crush on me? Would this cis woman still be so intent on being friends?

And then I think they'll have all these ideas in their head about me just because I'm trans. Like what do they think  - I'm 'playing at' being a guy? Do they think I have penis envy this bad? (I really don't. I don't care about my genitals). Do they think I'm just trying to get girls? (I'm bi and it's a lot simpler to get people of either gender when your genitals match the rest of you) None of that is true. I'm just a person who was born different and feels a lot better with the changes I've made. Most of my feelings of being 'fake' are based on what I expect other people think. And sure, knowing that most people expect and want a cis partner. Nobody wants to feel undesirable.

And there's a feeling of vulnerability that comes with being trans, of possibly being a target if found out. Even for trans men. No doubt this feeling is amplified for trans women. And this vulnerability extends to a lot of things. For instance, when I woke up in the ER as a trans guy, I was surprised I was treated like a human being. And extremely grateful for it. As a woman, it was just something I expected. And I was inclined to express displeasure at the smallest ill treatment. I was a normal, natural, whole human specimen. With nothing to hide. And now, well...

Cops and jail is another added vulnerability. I'm just a lot less inclined to get in trouble. Before, I had nothing to lose. Adding a strip search and the embarrassment of being thrown into either gender holding cell, or possibly worse, the 'freak tank' reserved for persons of ambiguous gender to the whole arrest thing just makes it a lot less endurable. Thankfully, I haven't experienced it as trans. I've had close calls, but I am a good talker and somehow more believable as a man (even when they have an um 'hot' mugshot of me as a woman up that they're commenting on), so luckily I've avoided arrest as a man.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is there's a sort of natural and 'fault-free' feeling you lose with transition. That can be felt in a lot of different situations. A sort of 'I'm a normal human' thing. And it's a lot. Transitioning kind of strips a layer of comfort and protection. And that's always with us whether stealth or not. Maybe even more with stealth.

Sorry for being so long winded, but is that the kind 'fake' feeling you're talking about? Or is it something like just not feeling female enough?

Quote from: insideontheoutside on March 04, 2014, 01:24:21 PM
Move to a more open/progressive city. People move all the time, for all sorts of reasons and I've seen many people do it on a shoestring budget and many various circumstances. If you went to Los Angeles, or Portland, or a number of other cities where the bulk of the population does not look at people who are different like they're aliens then you would probably be much happier just living your life.

I don't know what type of job you do but certain jobs also afford a lot of leeway in the appearance department. Near where I'm at there's a guy at the Macy's makeup counter that fully wears make up, does his hair, has nice outfits (that are not normal menswear) and everyone just accepts that's who he is. When I lived in L.A., I often had a "alternative" appearance and no one really batted an eyelash at me. And when I got to Portland, I see all manner of individuals with a wide variety of styles and appearances and everyone seems very accepting. Those are my own personal observations/experiences so I feel I can comment on those two cities in particular.

The other thing is that you have to build confidence to be yourself when that self is outside normal parameters. I'm actually a shy, introverted empath but I've learned over the years that it doesn't do me any favors to not have confidence in myself and the way I present myself. It took awhile to build that confidence and you have to find your own unique way of building confidence. I can't tell you, "do this and you will build confidence" so that's the other tricky part. For me, it was acknowledging many things about myself and experimenting with my appearance.

Remember that individuals who are the type who would attack (verbally or physically) someone else for being different is generally a weak individual themselves (or has other internalized issues) or they are the type who senses weakness in others (similar to how criminals choose victims) and exploit that. If you can build inner strength and confidence, it actually shows. I've actually noticed some people will come to respect another individual for being themselves and not caving to the status quo.

I hear ya on being an empath. I was a really really extroverted, bubbly child but at some point my self confidence got so bad and it got so hard to handle people just for my own guilt over everything and just for feeling so much about every little thing. I'm working through that a lot in therapy, I have been so amazingly blessed to find a wonderful therapist this time who is slowly helping me heal the wounds that the last therapist aggravated. Seriously, I have come such a long way that sometimes I can't believe it. OK, but yeah, I definitely still have an even longer way to go. Transition was a shock to my system kinda bc it was beyond anything I ever imagined doing, like, in a way it was so wonderfully selfish. But I sort of felt that I was doing it for my boyfriend at first, I mean I vaguely wanted to but I wouldn't have without him, and then once I had started presenting female that was it, i was full time and I could never stop again. I had this new ego to defend or something. Uh yeah, that might sound ridiculous, and if it's not obvious I ultimately made a lot of excuses for the way it ended up. I know I always had the choice. But it was easier to give my life to someone than take the reins myself.

Well I am still pretty dependent, if not financially then emotionally so it's really not possible for me to move right now (though if I did, I would so move to Portland in a heartbeat, god I adore the northwest.) I have actually never had a job yet, I was trying to work thru my panic problems before getting one and then I met that one therapist which unfortunately made things worse. And then I started living as a girl and was like always a bundle of panic lol, I mean I felt invalid enough as a boy to begin with so. But as I get stronger I know I'll start to be more able to think about things like that. I am sort of mellowing out lately in this weird way. I guess my own way of finding courage. I'm never not going to care too much about everything, but I can at least learn to accept that for what it is and know when I still need to get on with life. Kinda sucks that I did some damage in the meantime, cuz I will definitely need top surgery at least now, if I start to feel like I really can go back, but everything has a price I guess... either way I have learned a lot about myself as a girl too. (:

Those people who attack others are definitely my weakness The part of me that thinks everyone else is always right and justified in whatever they say has been really stubborn. Something takes over and I can't reject what they are saying at all. So like even strangers have incredible power to hurt me very badly if they wanted to. I've overcompensated for that by basically being everyone's sweetheart, it's kinda sickening actually.. I mean cuz it can be really insincere. I hate that. But even that is changing a little...

So yeah I get that a lot of the issue here is my own baggage, but on the other hand I can't help but wish  I didn't feel as alone in this category. Really encouraging to hear that that might not actually be true though. I should probably make some cis male friends, it just seems harder to tell than with my female friends who is cool with stuff and who isn't. And honestly in person, men are still kind of a scary entity to me since I mostly only get the overbearing type of male attention. :s And for some reason I always feel like they're mad at me. I feel like such a horrible person...

It does show though btw. I mean inner confidence and strength. I think this about a lot of people on this forum but reading your posts I always thought you were someone who had cultivated a deep inner strength. And on that topic that goes for Taka and FA too. You guys are awesome, seriously, and you should feel awesome.

Quote from: FA on March 04, 2014, 01:34:30 PM
That's so cool. I wish i could do that but yeah where I live is tricky. You are in Norway right? I can't remember. Anyway America is pretty different, idk. I keep thinking maybe someday in the right area of a big city, but right now where i live is pretty blue collar and I have never seen a guy here present with an ounce of femininity.

Does that guy pass as a boy consistently? Like does he have a lot of issues with it or? What kind of fashion statements if it's ok to ask? (: I'm super curious.

Also yeah, I totally know what you mean about people looking at you like an alien. I was so traumatized by this therapist i was seeing as a boy who week after week would just not drop the issue of my gender. She made me feel like a specimen. People were mostly weirded out by my appearance though, I was way too shy then for anyone to really get to know me or my mannerisms and stuff. But gender always came up somehow. Like either I was too small or or it was weird that I had long hair or invasive questions about my sexuality. And that was when I was just kind of presenting as a sort of preppy boy, nothing too unusual... I was so tired of it and really I just felt and feel fed up with gender but being trans didn't make that go away at all :c





Hey hon 

It might help to break this down. Rather than focusing on the whole thing, the whole either or thing, try to figure out how you feel about each aspect. It sounds like you aren't really tied to a male or female identity. And I can see how doing the full nine yards transition wise can seem overwhelming and really not that palatable if it's something your heart isn't really in.

How do you feel about HRT on its own? Do you like the effects? If it wasn't about being male or female, would you rather be on E or T?

How about SRS? Do you have a lot of bottom dysphoria? Is it something you really want or does it just sort of seem to come with the package?

What about the legalities? have you changed your name and do you prefer it? If not, do you like your birth name? I'm guessing by your post you haven't changed your gender markers yet.


As for the 'imitation' thing you mention, I think I know what you mean. I'm going to try to word this right - When you change your body and identity, you're sort of leaving behind your natural state. And you're never going to be the same as other people your gender. Not in body or life experiences. Obviously, we're not any less than cis men and women, just not the same. But we may sometimes feel 'fake'. For me, this feeling mostly comes from thinking others would think if they knew. I don't care that I wasn't born male (not as whole anyway, there are some things about it that bother me). But sometimes I do feel like an imposter around cis men and women. And I shy away from people wanting to be friends. Once I get close to someone that doesn't know, I get nervous. Would these guys want to hang out if they knew? Would those girls still have a crush on me? Would this cis woman still be so intent on being friends?

And then I think they'll have all these ideas in their head about me just because I'm trans. Like what do they think  - I'm 'playing at' being a guy? Do they think I have penis envy this bad? (I really don't. I don't care about my genitals). Do they think I'm just trying to get girls? (I'm bi and it's a lot simpler to get people of either gender when your genitals match the rest of you) None of that is true. I'm just a person who was born different and feels a lot better with the changes I've made. Most of my feelings of being 'fake' are based on what I expect other people think. And sure, knowing that most people expect and want a cis partner. Nobody wants to feel undesirable.

And there's a feeling of vulnerability that comes with being trans, of possibly being a target if found out. Even for trans men. No doubt this feeling is amplified for trans women. And this vulnerability extends to a lot of things. For instance, when I woke up in the ER as a trans guy, I was surprised I was treated like a human being. And extremely grateful for it. As a woman, it was just something I expected. And I was inclined to express displeasure at the smallest ill treatment. I was a normal, natural, whole human specimen. With nothing to hide. And now, well...

Cops and jail is another added vulnerability. I'm just a lot less inclined to get in trouble. Before, I had nothing to lose. Adding a strip search and the embarrassment of being thrown into either gender holding cell, or possibly worse, the 'freak tank' reserved for persons of ambiguous gender to the whole arrest thing just makes it a lot less endurable. Thankfully, I haven't experienced it as trans. I've had close calls, but I am a good talker and somehow more believable as a man (even when they have an um 'hot' mugshot of me as a woman up that they're commenting on), so luckily I've avoided arrest as a man.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is there's a sort of natural and 'fault-free' feeling you lose with transition. That can be felt in a lot of different situations. A sort of 'I'm a normal human' thing. And it's a lot. Transitioning kind of strips a layer of comfort and protection. And that's always with us whether stealth or not. Maybe even more with stealth.

Sorry for being so long winded, but is that the kind 'fake' feeling you're talking about? Or is it something like just not feeling female enough?

Yeah... it is really confusing to weigh everything out o.o

Like, hormones, yeah I mostly am happy with E aside from the boobs. I mean just personally I would prefer to be flat there but then if I am living as a girl I still want people to think I'm pretty... and I like my skin better on E, my pores look better and stuff. But it is harder to stay thin and I think my stretch marks look worse since taking E D:

Idk, HRT wasn't a super drastic difference so either way is OK really, I didn't hate my appearance before transition at all. I thought I made a pretty boy hahah. And yeah I was definitely thinner/smaller ;O;

Idk about genitals either, I never really cared about them on me and what I was born with is definitely  not what I think of as a good example of male genitals... ahahah awkward... if I could have any choice I'd probabky just be flat there ......The idea of using my (any) genitals for sex doesn't do anything for me though personally....Not to say I am asexual or dislike sex. I guess I'm technically pan, I believe all love is beautiful and I would never say never but i do seem to consistently prefer guys. I think I just have more role compatibility with guys.

I hated my birth name, but I'm not really happy with my new one either. I mean it is definitely better but. i hated my birth name and wanted to change it since long before I seriously considered transition. I hate that I have to like feel responsible for my name now, some people love my name and say it's so me, other people are like, why did you choose that name? It feels lose-lose, lol someone was going to make me feel bad about any name I chose so whatever, the thing for me is that just having a choice guarantees I will feel bad in the end. I also wish i thought about my middle name longer I just had to rush the name change. I don't like my middle name now. Part bc my aunt told me not to choose it after i already chose it. I hate getting this kind of attention. Ugh. I am gonna change it again when i get married.

I think you really summed it up when you talked about losing that fault-free feeling. And most of your insecurities are things I worried about too... I feel like I took so much into my own hands that I didn't even care about before and now I am forced to care and people assume i care. Like I have made myself responsible for things that are just supposed to be natural and require no thought. I began to feel a little lesser than in a specific way i never had experienced before. I lost that natural feeling and it is really freaking hard for me, especially because I don't know what I ultimately gained anyway, I mean in like a spiritual? sense. When I was a boy I generally just told people I didn't care about gender and I meant it, now I have to care. Like if I didn't, how could I keep doing all this. Transition isn't an automatic process lol. I sort of resent losing that natural feeling. It was harder than I thought it would be, just to keep feeling like a human being at all. I mean I do respect anyone with the courage and strength to do this, I just feel like I didn't even do it for the right reasons but now I ultimately realized i'm actually better off as a girl even if I feel trapped in being trans. And I am sorta forced to wonder if i could have survived being a boy, bc I definitely didn't have the strength it takes by that point.

So I guess I'm still confused, I mean if it was a choice between cis girl and cis boy it would be easy, but between trans girl and cis boy and including the practical concerns, I really really do not know.

What does it feel like to know what's right for you/what you definitely want?? I still never totally grasped the idea of gender identity. Is it something most people just simply know? I'm sorry if that's an impossible question lol. D:

{long winded sorry  }

QuoteBut I sort of felt that I was doing it for my boyfriend at first, I mean I vaguely wanted to but I wouldn't have without him,

Did he pressure you? or did you feel you pressured because he's straight (I'm assuming)? Are you still with him and do you think he will deal if you detransition?

QuoteI had this new ego to defend or something.

I felt like that too.

Quotend on that topic that goes for Taka and FA too. You guys are awesome, seriously, and you should feel awesome.

Thanks. 

QuoteI hate that I have to like feel responsible for my name now, some people love my name and say it's so me, other people are like, why did you choose that name? It feels lose-lose, lol someone was going to make me feel bad about any name I chose so whatever, the thing for me is that just having a choice guarantees I will feel bad in the end.

Yep, I had that too. So many advised me against my choice. I love when people assume it's my given name.

QuoteI feel like I took so much into my own hands that I didn't even care about before and now I am forced to care and people assume i care. Like I have made myself responsible for things that are just supposed to be natural and require no thought.

I felt the same way. About so many new things I felt forced to care about just because people assumed. For instance, suddenly I felt like I had to defend my masculinity, and measure it or something. I felt pressured to be masculine in a way that didn't feel natural. I never worried about or even wanted to be masculine before. I just was, for a girl anyway. Up to other guys, I don't seem especially masculine. And I felt like added pressure to be as masculine and male as possible because I was trans. Like I had to be more male than male to justify transition or something. And I never cared about that before. The men I've always admired weren't super masculine. So, I had a bit of a masculinity crisis for awhile.  I think I'm just now coming out of it a bit. Maybe that's why I'm so talkative of late. 

QuoteAnd I am sorta forced to wonder if i could have survived being a boy, bc I definitely didn't have the strength it takes by that point.

I feel like this sometimes. I envy women and anyone that can succeed as their birth gender. I just never could. It was a bad fit all around. I could never get on with women as a child or adult. Putting me around other humans, especially girls was just a disaster. Everything about me was 'wrong' and I just couldn't function at all.

QuoteSo I guess I'm still confused, I mean if it was a choice between cis girl and cis boy it would be easy, but between trans girl and cis boy and including the practical concerns, I really really do not know.

Do you know what you would choose if it was cis boy or cis girl?

QuoteWhat does it feel like to know what's right for you/what you definitely want?? I still never totally grasped the idea of gender identity. Is it something most people just simply know? I'm sorry if that's an impossible question lol. D:

Well for me, it was just something I had to do as soon as I found out it was possible. Transition, I mean. There was never any doubt. It had to happen as soon as possible. I had a lot of dysphoria, so that made things more clear, I suspect.

Your situation is kind of like the opposite of mine in a way. On paper, it probably looks like staying a woman would make more sense for someone like me:

• I like men (women too but more history with men)
• I was good looking as a woman; not so as a man
• I never really had a preference for gendered activities either way (I'm now getting into fashion and design but that only developed after transition, so wouldn't have been a factor before)

But it just doesn't fit. There were aspects I liked, sure. And there are things about being male I don't like. But being female was just not me. It was always an act. There were some things that were great about being a girl, but I just wasn't one. And it just felt wrong. Always. Separate from gender roles. It was wrong for my body (to a certain extent; I don't care about the genitals). So even with everything that sucks about male, and even though I don't feel either gender role is a great fit for me, I feel a lot more like myself. Even though I'm no longer attractive (which I didn't realize was such a big deal until that sort of privilege was gone). I hate male expectations (as well as female ones), but I'm just a lot more myself. Somehow, even though my body is altered, I'm more authentic this way. I'm trying to describe it, but like you said, it's nearly impossible. Wow, sorry about the book. 

Quote from: FA on March 05, 2014, 12:05:20 PM
{long winded sorry  }

Did he pressure you? or did you feel you pressured because he's straight (I'm assuming)? Are you still with him and do you think he will deal if you detransition?
I felt like that too.

Umm you're fine, please dw about the length at all. actually mine ended up even longer... so sorry D:

I don't really want to say he pressured me, just there was that chemistry but yeah he was straight. That sounds weird but it wasn't the first time it happened with a straight guy. I think to guys I always felt a little foreign somehow, like I can't identify many ways I was ever masculine, though in this case our group of friends constantly half-joked about me actually being a girl in the first place so it was on the radar. Idk. After I told him I actually had gender issues (not that it was a surprise) it sort of progressed from there when he was really honestly supportive of me. Like before I told him I would think yeah, it would be cool to try presenting as a girl sometime but there's no way I would transition, that's so not me. But after I had come out I pretty quickly started allowing myself to seriously just be natural with him and suddenly I found myself talking and thinking about the future as if it was a given that I would be a girl. So I just put the reality of having to tell my family and stuff out of my mind until it happened. And really before I knew it we had grown apart from our mutual friends and I was fulltime and dependent on him. Life is weird like that. D:

Uh, it's probably worth saying that yeah, I kind of have an attachment problem ;o; so I don't honestly know if this all sounds really weird to normal people but I didn't think anything of it. I would have done anything for him.

But anyway now that I'm more used to life as us I have to start thinking about who I am again. Like I kind of haave to grow up, and reality hit me really hard. And it hurt. we have sort of fought about the issue a lot....he doesn't get it. Why I would want to be a boy again when it seems right for me to be a girl. And how he handled it would send me into horrible breakdowns. But by now with a lot of promises that I would and could never be any different of a person he kind of gave up. He wouldn't leave me but I know he wouldn't like it, like having people think he was gay potentially. And he doesn't think i could be a boy either. It's hard when nobody gets it though. Idk

QuoteI felt the same way. About so many new things I felt forced to care about just because people assumed. For instance, suddenly I felt like I had to defend my masculinity, and measure it or something. I felt pressured to be masculine in a way that didn't feel natural. I never worried about or even wanted to be masculine before. I just was, for a girl anyway. Up to other guys, I don't seem especially masculine. And I felt like added pressure to be as masculine and male as possible because I was trans. Like I had to be more male than male to justify transition or something. And I never cared about that before. The men I've always admired weren't super masculine. So, I had a bit of a masculinity crisis for awhile.  I think I'm just now coming out of it a bit. Maybe that's why I'm so talkative of late. 

Yeah... I had that too, like with things that were completely made up. Anything a cis girl was that I wasn't felt invalidating and I don't get it. I mean it essentially had nothing to do with gender... she could have been more masculine than me and I'd feel weird for not being the same. So ridiculously I would feel bad about one thing around one girl, and then the exact opposite around another. It was completely impossible, anyone who felt like that would find it crippling It took a really long time to get to the point inwardly of just being able to not be thinking like that constantly. Now I don't hate myself as much if I'm different than any one person, and I can be realistic that it doesn't mean I'm masculine and if it did it shouldn't matter anyway. Separating my disordered thinking from my actual beliefs was good for me, it's just that even beyond that there is this feeling of being burned out. It's not like i accepted myself on the inside, I just sort of fell into a groove I can live with. I don't really feel like I can love myself because I fundamentally still feel fake...

By the way, I can see what you mean about masc/femme for a woman compared to for a man. From what  i have seen with people, it seems like, yeah, there is a range of masculinity/femininity (for whatever reason, nature or nurture) for all people, but probably most normally there is a range for women and a range for men, and they do overlap in the middle, but usually actually not that much when you look at it more deeply. Being even just mildly on the masculine side would definitely cause a lot of angst for a FAAB person, I think that absolutely makes a lot of sense, because it's really abnormal. Most people in that area are living as men at the end of the day, you know? Sorry if that's silly lol But anyway I think it's wo derful that you are feeling more comfortable with yourself.

QuoteI feel like this sometimes. I envy women and anyone that can succeed as their birth gender. I just never could. It was a bad fit all around. I could never get on with women as a child or adult. Putting me around other humans, especially girls was just a disaster. Everything about me was 'wrong' and I just couldn't function at all.

Definitely the same about not functioning, though I think in my case if it was primarily about my gender then that was just the thing I could blame for all my other problems. I could survive presenting as a guy and dealing with being different and sort of an enigma to people, but I was very low functioning anyway.

QuoteDo you know what you would choose if it was cis boy or cis girl?

Uh huh! If I would be mentally the same then I would be a cis girl, I think I would have had a much fuller life that way. I mean there still would be struggles but I don't think I would have felt as alone and alien...

QuoteWell for me, it was just something I had to do as soon as I found out it was possible. Transition, I mean. There was never any doubt. It had to happen as soon as possible. I had a lot of dysphoria, so that made things more clear, I suspect.

Oh ok, yeah, that is probably where we are different, b/c honestly when I first heard about transition I thought it was weird and people who did it were weird. With how the media is I sort of thought it was just a thing older men did during a midlife crisis or something. Actually even when i met young trans people I initially thought it was weird. Okay, I was young and obviously I grew out of judging people for being trans and also realized that everyone is unique. But it was definitely not like, oh I can be a girl socially? Gotta do that right away. I don't know if I took it seriously as something I could do until I actually did it. Though. I should say I didn't really have a ton of dysphoria bc again I had very little life experience to base gender dysphoria on. I had lots of other social dysphoria though, which I guess in a roundabout way was probably actually caused by being different physically/emotionally than a boy should and feeling bad and unwanted for that.

But? I can absolutely see how if you had this identity as the opposite sex and was able to recognize all the hurt it was causing you, that the drive to transition would be really strong. Kind of indirectly thru my experiences I have had some similar feelings, I think it's just that I was more oriented around other people in my life than myself. I didn't care about myself at all, just what other people wanted me to be or what would make them love me. I always had a weak identity like that, so I am sure if I had a gender identity it would be female, but I can't force it

Quote
Your situation is kind of like the opposite of mine in a way. On paper, it probably looks like staying a woman would make more sense for someone like me:

• I like men (women too but more history with men)
• I was good looking as a woman; not so as a man
• I never really had a preference for gendered activities either way (I'm now getting into fashion and design but that only developed after transition, so wouldn't have been a factor before)

But it just doesn't fit. There were aspects I liked, sure. And there are things about being male I don't like. But being female was just not me. It was always an act. There were some things that were great about being a girl, but I just wasn't one. And it just felt wrong. Always. Separate from gender roles. It was wrong for my body (to a certain extent; I don't care about the genitals). So even with everything that sucks about male, and even though I don't feel either gender role is a great fit for me, I feel a lot more like myself. Even though I'm no longer attractive (which I didn't realize was such a big deal until that sort of privilege was gone). I hate male expectations (as well as female ones), but I'm just a lot more myself. Somehow, even though my body is altered, I'm more authentic this way. I'm trying to describe it, but like you said, it's nearly impossible. Wow, sorry about the book. 

It's so weird, hah. I was reading your post and i just found myself going uh-huh mhmmm yep. Then I got to the last part and it's like... that's how I feel about being a woman!! That's exactly why I think i should be a guy. I can't explain it at all. Because for me I do genuinely understand and get along better and have more in common with women but something about me also being a woman just doesn't feel like the whole truth. I don't get it. I mean I don't feel like a man but I feel different. I mean I feel like I am not the same. That's why I feel fake, and it's not about femininity, it's just that I feel like I am being fake with myself and with everyone else, somehow, even if it actually feels incredibly natural.

And even though as a boy I was just as obsessed about what people thought of me, I didn't have this fake feeling. Even when in reality I'm positive I was a lot more fake as a boy. Bc I had to live terrified to be myself. Not like actively fake, like trying to be masculine.. just fake in hiding parts of myself and always holding back. I can hardly even remember what it feels like to worry if someone will notice that I do my brows or will see me in the makeup aisle, if i will have the confiidence to stop a hairdresser who decides to take four inches when i said just do the ends, or if I'll keep my room bare because people would judge everything I want to put in it and it just feels bad. Those worries feel far away and I can really be myself more now, yet I never felt more fake in my life. Cuz it didn't take work to be a cis boy, I was just born that way and trying my best to survive it. To be a girl I am forced to do so many things to consciously assert to the world that I am a girl, but I'm not doing it for me anymore. I'm not hiding parts of myself to feel safe, I'm actively trying to be something that doesn't exactly feel like me. Even if other people usually don't get what's even different. It's not that being a guy just feels right, but it just is, it doesn't feel wrong like being trans does. Something in me rejects being trans every time.

I really don't get it. That feeling won't go away. I mean maybe it's just that knowing I'm trans is simply too much for me and i don't have the self esteem to validate it. But how can you fight how you feel? It really hurts a lot and I just don't know how i can take this forever. I can't even appreciate the ability to be myself anymore because I am so depressed that i don't want to do anything or engage in my life. i have got to get past this somehow, and I still don't realistically know how that is going to be.

Quote from: sad panda on March 05, 2014, 08:00:59 PM
It does show though btw. I mean inner confidence and strength. I think this about a lot of people on this forum but reading your posts I always thought you were someone who had cultivated a deep inner strength. And on that topic that goes for Taka and FA too. You guys are awesome, seriously, and you should feel awesome.

Thanks

Quote from: sad panda on March 05, 2014, 08:00:59 PM
Because for me I do genuinely understand and get along better and have more in common with women but something about me also being a woman just doesn't feel like the whole truth. I don't get it. I mean I don't feel like a man but I feel different. I mean I feel like I am not the same. That's why I feel fake, and it's not about femininity, it's just that I feel like I am being fake with myself and with everyone else, somehow, even if it actually feels incredibly natural....

I really don't get it. That feeling won't go away. I mean maybe it's just that knowing I'm trans is simply too much for me and i don't have the self esteem to validate it. But how can you fight how you feel? It really hurts a lot and I just don't know how i can take this forever. I can't even appreciate the ability to be myself anymore because I am so depressed that i don't want to do anything or engage in my life. i have got to get past this somehow, and I still don't realistically know how that is going to be.

I think a key component here might possibly be in the definitions. You seem as though you're trying to just put a tidy label on yourself (or feel it would be easier to do so – like how it would have been easier to be a "cis woman", etc.) or that it would just generally be easier to not be trans or just be ok with being a female, etc. But it sounds as though what's more comfortable is actually something in between – like the masculine female or the feminine male. But what then makes that not ok, is everyone else around you. Throwing depression on the whole thing I'm sure doesn't help. What's the new therapist recommend, just out of curiosity? One of the key things about depression that's important to remember is that it doesn't last forever. Hell I was depressed for the last 3 months for some unknown reason but it started to lift. And the important thing about gender and even visual presentation when it pertains to gender is that there's a spectrum. I guess what the big thing to figure out then is hitting some middle ground where you feel comfortable all around (with yourself, and with how other people see you).

Quote from: insideontheoutside on March 07, 2014, 10:36:15 PM
I think a key component here might possibly be in the definitions. You seem as though you're trying to just put a tidy label on yourself (or feel it would be easier to do so – like how it would have been easier to be a "cis woman", etc.) or that it would just generally be easier to not be trans or just be ok with being a female, etc. But it sounds as though what's more comfortable is actually something in between – like the masculine female or the feminine male. But what then makes that not ok, is everyone else around you. Throwing depression on the whole thing I'm sure doesn't help. What's the new therapist recommend, just out of curiosity? One of the key things about depression that's important to remember is that it doesn't last forever. Hell I was depressed for the last 3 months for some unknown reason but it started to lift. And the important thing about gender and even visual presentation when it pertains to gender is that there's a spectrum. I guess what the big thing to figure out then is hitting some middle ground where you feel comfortable all around (with yourself, and with how other people see you).

I think you are absolutely right about the labels... it's like, I want something to cling to that I can say is me, otherwise I feel empty. But when you substitute that for being real then everything is scary.. it feels like, well what if I'm wrong? What if this is not who I am? And maybe it's even not wrong, but I can't just, be, and experience myself organically. I can't trust myself anymore.

So then I don't want to have to choose anything about myself or commit to any labels at all, I want to totally reject them instead. I'd rather feel like it's not my fault and I am not reponsible for the emptiness inside. But honestly, I'm still not at the point where I can tell if being trans was for me me or for the me that just wants to be something, and that life just happened to make transition an easy choice. It's like, whenever I hear other trans people talk about their gender, there is this focus and certainty there that I definitely can't say I ever felt.

I don't actually talk to T much about gender, her specialty is trauma so. but we do focus on my thinking a lot on finding a middleground between the black and white. kinda like what you're saying about the spectrum. And then self-validating.

Including the part about how people see me is the biggest struggle though, definitely. It's like I can see who I would be if it were just for me, or if it were just for someone else specific, but to me, I always approach how people see me on an individual level and I end up wanting to be somebody different for every person. That makes it especially hard to be male because it seems like a LOT of people don't accept femme guys, which i don't understand.

Quote from: sad panda on March 05, 2014, 08:00:59 PM

QuoteDo you know what you would choose if it was cis boy or cis girl?

Uh huh! If I would be mentally the same then I would be a cis girl, I think I would have had a much fuller life that way. I mean there still would be struggles but I don't think I would have felt as alone and alien...

I wonder if part of this is just the difficulties in being trans. It isn't the same as being a cis person of our gender, even stealth. And it confers an instant minority status that is difficult to reconcile sometimes.

QuoteIt's so weird, hah. I was reading your post and i just found myself going uh-huh mhmmm yep. Then I got to the last part and it's like... that's how I feel about being a woman!! That's exactly why I think i should be a guy. I can't explain it at all. Because for me I do genuinely understand and get along better and have more in common with women but something about me also being a woman just doesn't feel like the whole truth. I don't get it. I mean I don't feel like a man but I feel different. I mean I feel like I am not the same. That's why I feel fake, and it's not about femininity, it's just that I feel like I am being fake with myself and with everyone else, somehow, even if it actually feels incredibly natural.

And even though as a boy I was just as obsessed about what people thought of me, I didn't have this fake feeling. Even when in reality I'm positive I was a lot more fake as a boy. Bc I had to live terrified to be myself. Not like actively fake, like trying to be masculine.. just fake in hiding parts of myself and always holding back. I can hardly even remember what it feels like to worry if someone will notice that I do my brows or will see me in the makeup aisle, if i will have the confiidence to stop a hairdresser who decides to take four inches when i said just do the ends, or if I'll keep my room bare because people would judge everything I want to put in it and it just feels bad. Those worries feel far away and I can really be myself more now, yet I never felt more fake in my life. Cuz it didn't take work to be a cis boy, I was just born that way and trying my best to survive it. To be a girl I am forced to do so many things to consciously assert to the world that I am a girl, but I'm not doing it for me anymore. I'm not hiding parts of myself to feel safe, I'm actively trying to be something that doesn't exactly feel like me. Even if other people usually don't get what's even different. It's not that being a guy just feels right, but it just is, it doesn't feel wrong like being trans does. Something in me rejects being trans every time.

I really don't get it. That feeling won't go away. I mean maybe it's just that knowing I'm trans is simply too much for me and i don't have the self esteem to validate it. But how can you fight how you feel? It really hurts a lot and I just don't know how i can take this forever. I can't even appreciate the ability to be myself anymore because I am so depressed that i don't want to do anything or engage in my life. i have got to get past this somehow, and I still don't realistically know how that is going to be.

There are some trans people who are just overjoyed with their new gender roles and find them a great fit. And others who don't. But the few who aren't like 'being a woman/man is so awesome, solved all my problems, I'm jumping up and down on rainbows, etc, etc' don't seem to talk about it.
I'm kind of in between, I guess. I'm definitely more comfortable, but I get less and less enthusiastic about all this 'man' stuff as time goes on. I really don't like being shoved into a box and having all these assumptions placed on me based on what genitals people assume I have (which I don't btw lol). So as mentioned before, I kind of had a masculinity crisis at first.

I get the feeling most trans people who feel great about their new gender roles are those with very strong male/female identities, who fit more traditionally into and strongly prefer the new gender role over the other one. I identify as a guy, I am a guy, but I'm really not pressed about it (I don't care about having the wrong genitals or having vestigial female physical or behavioral attributes for one). And while I do better and seem more accepted in the male role, I don't love it and wish it weren't so restrictive. Someone else who is more traditionally masculine in pursuits etc. may not notice that as much.

But even though I'm not in love with the new role, it was the right and only choice for me. It's like shoes. I'm in between sizes and have long narrow feet. It's very hard to find shoes that don't draw blood with any exertion. I just have to go with the pair that does it less.

i got tired of roles in the end, and will only act according to gender norms on a very few occasions if it's not something that just happens naturally in the situation. i've also met so much weird prejudice that i've decided that i'll insist on being treated like a human being simply because that's what i am. i don't even want to think of myself in terms of trans or cis, because neither sits well with me. i'm mostly a guy, and that's all anyone will ever need to know. even if i'm a woman, i can still be a guy. it's the other people's fault if they don't notice...

i used to have a lot of that above inner dialogue, which ended up on deciding not to transition because i'd just be a fake, and then because i couldn't be my birth gender as well. reasons changed until i've now decided to transition because it's none of anyone else's business what i decide to do or not do with my body. i'm not happy with it the way it is now, i can't ever possibly be, so i'll do what i can to change it into what i think it should be like. not that i think it will be easy, but the future will find the means. hopefully.

it was easier to reach a decision when i just figured out that i've always been me, and will always be, so there's no point in trying to become something or other, particularly "the opposite gender". i am the gender(s) i am, what i need to do is shape my body to fit a little better, not change myself. some parts of me need to be changed in order for me to really feel like i'm me, and not like i have to keep pretending to be someone else just because i don't look like myself.

disregarding your body, family, society, anything that would try to dictate you, who are you?
strike a sexy pose. imagine it. what does your body look like, in your imagination, at its sexiest?
some parts might be changeable with the right training and diet, other parts may require hormone treatment or surgery.
i think this stuff gets so difficult because of overthinking and dragging in too many factors that don't really matter to your core identity, but rather how you think you'll be allowed to express it. was that way for me at least.


and the funny guy i mentioned. he's a stylist/makeup artist for oriflame, unless he recently changed jobs. very flashy, acts like a girl, dresses like something rather undefinable, is taken for a guy but never forced into any norm. comes from a small society full of traditional religious christians and much other prejudice. you'll find pics if you google erlend elias.

@FA

Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 09:28:39 AM

I wonder if part of this is just the difficulties in being trans. It isn't the same as being a cis person of our gender, even stealth. And it confers an instant minority status that is difficult to reconcile sometimes.

Probably. I really hate that feeling too. I just tend to feel lesser than other girls. When I try to sing... lesser than. Like a cripple, like a weird teenage boy. What I am to 99% of guys... lesser than. Plan B. Maybe on the DL. Even in terms of just not thinking about gender, not having to worry about all these little physical details, anything like that... I just feel lesser than, minority, underprivileged, marginal, unusual, not ideal, bad. I don't know if it's that way for everybody but I have had a really hard time making any progress on most of these feelings, all I can really do is ignore them but they always get flared up at some point and I hate it, it hurts so much.

QuoteThere are some trans people who are just overjoyed with their new gender roles and find them a great fit. And others who don't. But the few who aren't like 'being a woman/man is so awesome, solved all my problems, I'm jumping up and down on rainbows, etc, etc' don't seem to talk about it.
I'm kind of in between, I guess. I'm definitely more comfortable, but I get less and less enthusiastic about all this 'man' stuff as time goes on. I really don't like being shoved into a box and having all these assumptions placed on me based on what genitals people assume I have (which I don't btw lol). So as mentioned before, I kind of had a masculinity crisis at first.

I get the feeling most trans people who feel great about their new gender roles are those with very strong male/female identities, who fit more traditionally into and strongly prefer the new gender role over the other one. I identify as a guy, I am a guy, but I'm really not pressed about it (I don't care about having the wrong genitals or having vestigial female physical or behavioral attributes for one). And while I do better and seem more accepted in the male role, I don't love it and wish it weren't so restrictive. Someone else who is more traditionally masculine in pursuits etc. may not notice that as much.

I agree that it should not be restrictive, but in terms of gender roles I don't have any problem at all with female gender roles, they fit me pretty exactly except for having a lot of anxieties about the previously mentioned lesser than feelings. Like, it's a club that I fit in yet don't feel a part of. Other girls feel like I'm a part of it yet I don't. :/

So, idk if fitting the role necessarily makes transition a good choice, somehow. Is that weird? It just seems like you need a baseline level of self-esteem and emotional stability and individuality to be successful in a transition... maybe..

QuoteBut even though I'm not in love with the new role, it was the right and only choice for me. It's like shoes. I'm in between sizes and have long narrow feet. It's very hard to find shoes that don't draw blood with any exertion. I just have to go with the pair that does it less.

Uh-huh. I see what you mean. I guess it's just like, maybe one shoe fits okay and you just like it but for some reason it starts to hurt really bad after an hour of wearing it, and then you can survive a day just fine in another shoe but it's ugly as sin and has this weird spot where it always feels like there's a pebble stuck in it. Hahah. Idk. I just mean it feels like I weigh and weigh the options and I forget what I'm even comparing. I don't know how to tell what is the lesser evil because it's so complicated... ugh. I think the reason it's so hard too choose is actually because being a girl is so right for me but being trans is so wrong. Every option is really painful.

-----------

@Taka

Quote from: Taka on March 12, 2014, 08:59:13 AM
i got tired of roles in the end, and will only act according to gender norms on a very few occasions if it's not something that just happens naturally in the situation. i've also met so much weird prejudice that i've decided that i'll insist on being treated like a human being simply because that's what i am. i don't even want to think of myself in terms of trans or cis, because neither sits well with me. i'm mostly a guy, and that's all anyone will ever need to know. even if i'm a woman, i can still be a guy. it's the other people's fault if they don't notice...

Yeah.. at the end of the day, I just want to be me. I kinda resent that we are forced to pick one in a lot of ways. Even if I make a good girl, I resent that I have to call myself a girl and have people think I'm a girl to be me, cuz I agree, I am not trans or cis. I want to be cis because I want to feel equal. I want the various social/legal/whatever resources everybody takes for granted to exist for me, but they do not.

Quotei used to have a lot of that above inner dialogue, which ended up on deciding not to transition because i'd just be a fake, and then because i couldn't be my birth gender as well. reasons changed until i've now decided to transition because it's none of anyone else's business what i decide to do or not do with my body. i'm not happy with it the way it is now, i can't ever possibly be, so i'll do what i can to change it into what i think it should be like. not that i think it will be easy, but the future will find the means. hopefully.

I totally agree, it is nobody's business. You are 100% right. I agree, though I know myself, and I know that if people make it their business it will influence me a lot. A lot of the reason I go back and forth on whether I want to be trans is just being exposed to different people/media/whatever and it changes how I feel... sometimes I see a boy who makes me want to be a boy or a girl who makes me want to be a girl. Or since you read manga, maybe you will get what I mean... this is awkward but sometimes I read yaoi and I go, I want to be like that boy... I would like to have my life like that.. But those types of people don't/can't exist in real life... my friend who also reads yaoi agreed on that. Plus a gay guy would never be interested in me probably.

Lol, anyway. It doesn't really come from the inside for me, I mean gender identity. I'm sort of mad at myself for being so impressionable but it's always been that way so I can't realistically act like i"m not.

Btw you are transitioning now? I didn't know!! Wish you the best experience possible with it

Quoteit was easier to reach a decision when i just figured out that i've always been me, and will always be, so there's no point in trying to become something or other, particularly "the opposite gender". i am the gender(s) i am, what i need to do is shape my body to fit a little better, not change myself. some parts of me need to be changed in order for me to really feel like i'm me, and not like i have to keep pretending to be someone else just because i don't look like myself.

Can I ask a question? What made you know what kind of body you wanted? I'm stumped on how to figure that out too. Like I know I want to be healthy, and pretty, and have long hair and white teeth and things like that, but it is not very gendered.

Quotedisregarding your body, family, society, anything that would try to dictate you, who are you?
strike a sexy pose. imagine it. what does your body look like, in your imagination, at its sexiest?
some parts might be changeable with the right training and diet, other parts may require hormone treatment or surgery.
i think this stuff gets so difficult because of overthinking and dragging in too many factors that don't really matter to your core identity, but rather how you think you'll be allowed to express it. was that way for me at least.

Hahah... I don't know, sexy to me or sexy to someone else? That's what confuses me. I would want to look more masculine in terms of my opinion of sexy but I can't look very masculine ever. And of course I'm not dating me, lol. I do want to be sexy to guys but then it's not just about me anymore ;o;

Yeah, I see what you mean by too many factors. I guess I'm just missing the core identity part which is supposed to be the important part y'know?  That's why I get caught in the details, cuz I don't really know what I want to be, just that there are reasons I'm uncomfortable/sad now, but maybe I would be as a boy too.

Quoteand the funny guy i mentioned. he's a stylist/makeup artist for oriflame, unless he recently changed jobs. very flashy, acts like a girl, dresses like something rather undefinable, is taken for a guy but never forced into any norm. comes from a small society full of traditional religious christians and much other prejudice. you'll find pics if you google erlend elias.

Oh okay, he's pretty Yeah, I could see myself being happy like that, the only problem is I would not pass as a guy (I think it has something to do with head size and body size, I don't really know, just that's how it has been IRL.) But, maybe it doesn't matter too much as long as the people who know me know what I am.

Actually, I do know what my ideal appearance is, come to think of it I could even pretty much look that way just I would never pass as a guy, so it's like, am I forced to be trans then? It's so confusing... and then there is the question of, it would probably still be too much to wear girl's clothes as a boy, wouldn't it? I prefer girls' clothes fashion-wise and they fit me so much better... I don't undrrstand this--as FAAB it is okay to wear men's clothes for whatever reason you want. As MAAB it is okay to wear them if you are trans, but if you are just a cis boy it makes you a crossdresser. Now I know most cis boys would look bat in girl's clothes, but if they can pull it off and prefer the fashion I don't get why it is stigmatized. I think we live in the stone age ><;;

Anyway, sorry I always make these confusing posts. I just never know what to think or how to feel about this stuff.

Here's sort of an example of what I'm dealing with...

I was kind of joking earlier when I dressed up like this as my boy presentation... (I had never even worn a wig before)



"Okay, think guns and swords and superman"




But I'm kind of not joking. Maybe not this look, lol, I wouldn't wear that to any normal occasion, but the point is why can't I dress/present how I want, something equivalent to that, and be a boy? It shouldn't sound ridiculous cuz an FAAB person could present to the same degree of (stereotypical) masculinity without being trans and have not too many problems...

When I honestly try to figure out my boy presentation I don't even know what it would be. Because I have to sit there asking myself... wait, but am I saying I want people to think that I AM a boy? Or am I just going to let them think I'm a girl but identify as a boy inside? And will I tell them I'm a boy if it comes down to it? What bathrooms do I use then??

I still don't know what to do with these questions. It still feels like I have to choose being me vs being allowed to be cis.  it shouldn't be this hard but I guess that's how repressive gender roles can be.

Wow, those pics really helped clarify things. You look extremely female, especially the legs. No one would ever doubt those legs. And your face looks more female than ever. What did you look like pre-transition? Sadly, I see the problem - you're probably going to be taken as female no matter what. The only thing I can think of, is to stop HRT and hope you pass as male again. Otherwise, you should stop worrying about gender and just be you and let people think what they will.

Quote from: FA on March 13, 2014, 11:47:55 AM
Wow, those pics really helped clarify things. You look extremely female, especially the legs. No one would ever doubt those legs. And your face looks more female than ever. What did you look like pre-transition? Sadly, I see the problem - you're probably going to be taken as female no matter what. The only thing I can think of, is to stop HRT and hope you pass as male again. Otherwise, you should stop worrying about gender and just be you and let people think what they will.

Well, I was able to pass pre transition, though not actually that much and never as an adult, it was always a problem and before I was just wearing dumpy baggy boy clothes. My legs are like that because i stopped growing young. I always thought it was funny when I would sit next to my dad, his legs are super long and skinny and mine looked like baby seals. And need a 27 inch inseam. Anyway I mainly looked the same except 10 lbs lighter, but everything was the same proportions, I still had very average female measurements. So.. yeah, idk.

I try not to think about it and just be me but, at the same time, I have to think about it a lot just because people assume things about me that don't apply and i have to consciously choose what I am gonna say. And i have to always decide whether to be honest about what I am, or my past, or all those things, and of course i just have that internal feeling of being slightly different even if nobody can tell. I don't want any of that, I just want to feel natural and to some extent normal, but yeah I guess for now all i can do is pretend it doesn't affect me like it does.

I guess that's why it bugs me so much that MAAB people can't be feminine--bc that would be the one answer for me to be natural. but it's looked down on.

Did you get a lot of questions as male? What was life like for you before?

Quote from: sad panda on March 04, 2014, 01:52:02 AM
Something that frustrates me a lot when I long to detransition is the issue of men and expressed femininity. I mean the not-okay-ness of it. In a perfect world I can see me presenting as this beautiful cis boy with long, silky hair, some tasteful makeup, at least a femme inspired wardrobe...I basically want to be me without having to be trans.

The term "metrosexual" was coined for that, honestly, before it so cliche and mocked.  But really that is what you are describing.

QuoteBut it's so bleak. There's not really a place for someone like that is there. I have cis female friends who I know would accept me but the public is a different story. And what is someone like me supposed to do? There's no role models or people like this to set a precedent for it being okay bc ultimately it isn't OK to most people still. And if there is someone like that, it has to be their one thing.

Dude!  Do you live in a one horse, bible-thumpin' town?  I live in a small very conservative town, (but we are down wind of Atlanta), and we a pretty good, LGBT and alt community here even if it stays on the down-low.  If there is a place for the gender-different HERE, I can't believe you can't get plugged into the (a) scene there??!?

Quote
You can't just happen to be like that and still incidentally be a person who is just living like. I mean it practically has to be political. In reality, the most feminine guys are just usually tastefully male.

Well, usually a "feminine guy"  comes across as just "flamin' gay" to most people, (even within' the community).

QuoteThey are not really allowed to be feminine in their daily life.

Whut? 

Quote
And I know that I'd not pass ever anyway with this presentation so it's to the point where it's like being trans is inescapable. Even if I want to not be, people will assume I am if they know I'm a boy.

You ought to go hang out in the FTM section and see what those dudes get away with...

QuoteWhat majorly frustrates me a lot is the double standard. A cis woman can openly be the exact reverse of this, even down to wearing men's clothes and many are. I mean it happens and they can be that and find a place in the world. But for men it doesn't really happen does it. Certainly not as a grown adult...

That is because it looks cute on a girl, actually even helps those who aren't "pretty",  not so much on a hairy, overweight man. I mean, Yeah its a double standard, but its the way it is...

Quote
It's just the worst feeling to be trans because you feel like you're not allowed to be cis and yourself. I get so mad at myself and feel so wrong and fake and start getting determined to finally detransition but I can never actually do it. Sorry if this is more like a rant, I just wanted to talk about this :c

What I think you want is "gender fluid", being able to cross over, mix, and blur your gender identity irregardless (in spite of?) social norms/programming?  You can do that, but unless you can find or create a hospitable environment for that, you are "cutting across the grain of society" which is hard, with lots of pitfalls as I'm sure you know.  But it doesn't mean you can't do it if you want to. IMO.

Quote from: FA on March 13, 2014, 02:38:08 PM
Did you get a lot of questions as male? What was life like for you before?

Mmh, well, I didn't have a whole lot of life experience at all but when I did, yeah I guess. People pretty much always found something to comment or challenge me on. Usually my size, my age or my hair or stuff like that. (I mean short of comments about my actual gender or being gendered female which did happen a lot). I would get hssled about being legal to drive or pick up prescriptions. I had a therapist who would constantly interrogate me every week, like do you grow facial hair? Can you point out your cheekbones? Do you eat much? Would you get your hormones evaluated at the university hospital?

And it was really bad when I put my hair up, I guess cuz of my small jaw, i only did it a couple times because people would give me these weird stares like they had seem a ghost.

So, it was always on people's radar. But back then it was ok to just basically be a young teenager forever, I wasn't doing anything with myself anyway. Then at 20 I started living as a girl and people treated me a lot more normally.