I'm not going to argue, but ill leave you this: the American Bar Association recently issued a decision that any lawyer who uses the trans panic defense in the assault or murder of a trans woman will be disbarred. Why? Because it's bunk. If you're that unhinged that kissing a letting a trans woman perform oral sex on you makes you murder someone or kill yourself, then you have deeper issues that need to be addressed. Like now. Or yesterday. Here we are again arguing about the same issue of disclosure yet how many people on this board have been in that situation where they are taken for cis and been in a sexual situation? I have. It's not so black and white as you may think. Sex happens. At least to me it does. And sometimes you're just talking to someone and flirting harmlessly and next thing you know, you're kissing and down on your knees. BTW, I disclosed to my ex-BF the day I met him, but he's now just my BFF and person I sleep with occasionally like, uh, three hours ago/ So this is an issue that actually really effects me. It's not some academic argument. It's my life. I wasn't trashing the site or you; I just take issue with the word, tricked. That it. No biggie. I gots my big girl panties on so it's all good...or maybe i'm just happy and satisfied today cause I got the only person I actually care about back. So yeah. Sorry.

Quote from: learningtolive on March 13, 2014, 07:40:40 PM
I think FA hit it on the head.  It's not our place to condone or disagree with someone else's actions, but we should acknowledge there are risks.  If someone decides to follow through after considering everything, that's there choice.  I really sympathize with those that choose to not disclose and will never judge them, but I don't think that is something I'd be comfortable with for myself.  Having said all that, I definelty understand why the op feels the way they do as I fear that I'll never meet an understanding guy.  I can't judge. 

And this^ It's better if someone far more emotionally stable then me talks. So Ill shut up.

Lol on me being more mentally stable!  I'm like the craziest person here!

Quote from: learningtolive on March 13, 2014, 07:54:37 PM
Lol on me being more mentally stable!  I'm like the craziest person here!

I turned to craaaaazy into an artform lol don't be treading on my turf :-)

Quote from: mandonlym on March 13, 2014, 07:31:11 PM
Yeah I think of it as an ethical rather than a moral issue. I don't think anyone is morally obligated disclose, but I do think that if one commits to spending one's life with someone, there's an ethical obligation for the partner to know important details about the person's life. And one of those details is their gender history. I've dated people, sometimes for long periods of time, without disclosing. But I've always told anyone I've loved.

Also, if we extend our sympathy towards transwomen who become suicidal over the issue, how can we dismiss the issues of their partners so easily?

I don't know ethical or unethical, why would you want to keep that kind of information hidden, only out or fear of rejection, By having that fear you acknowledging to your self that there is some not right in withholding that information. Your free to live how you want to live, but your consciousness is acknowledging that there is something not right in doing so. Your forced to carry that burden the rest of the relationship.

With people to whom I haven't disclosed, I don't know, I just didn't think the relationship was substantial enough and it wasn't really any of their business at that point. Like, if I had breast cancer that went into remission ten years ago, that's an important part of my life I would tell someone I love, but not necessarily something I would tell someone I'm dating but haven't gotten that close enough to yet. As much as I believe in openness, I also think people have a right to privacy.

I really don't see how it is tricking them or lying to them.  Yeah, it's not telling them something about your past, but if i didn't tell someone I had cancer, I haven't tricked them into being with me.  If they have a problem with it if they find out before I decide to tell them, isn't that their problem?  I understand from a safety point of view it's probably good to tell.  But from an ethical or moral point of view, no it's up to me when I feel comfortable telling and if they have an issue, it's not on me and guess what? They probably weren't worth it anyways, and that's the only thing on me is wasting my own time on a loser.

Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 13, 2014, 08:08:40 PM
I really don't see how it is tricking them or lying to them.

If they have indicated they prefer not to have a relationship with a Trans person or are secure with their chosen gender identification it is.

The problem is, when is a lie a lie? Is it a lie if you go with a man who identifies as straight, and you just don't tell him you don't have a vagina? Of course it is. Is it a lie to tell a man who hasn't identified himself as straight, bi or poly? That's where the gray area lies.

It's easier for those of us who prefer other women, because the most a woman is going to do is walk away- you're not likely to be beaten, raped or murdered (or all 3) by a woman who feels spurned, but you are likely to by a man who does.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 08:23:49 PM
If they have indicated they prefer not to have a relationship with a Trans person or are secure with their chosen gender identification it is.

Most of the time there is no indication that they are against transgender people either.  Sure, it's easy to assume they may not be open to it, but how are you really going to know without discussing it?

I don't know.  Straight guys that had no problem sleeping with women without knowing their partner's history or background shouldn't act all holier than thou when they find out.  I mean they don't care about their partners background or history at all unless they are trans?  So everything else being ommitted but trans status is okay?  I don't know, it just sounds odd and sort of arbitrary for that to be the one thing that they care, especially when they aren't really showing that they are interested in their partners background at all.

Again, I'll likely be disclosing myself as I can't imagine dating otherwise, but it pissess me off how unaccepting and self righteous some of these straight guys are. 

Quote from: KelsieJ on March 13, 2014, 08:32:16 PM
The problem is, when is a lie a lie? Is it a lie if you go with a man who identifies as straight, and you just don't tell him you don't have a vagina? Of course it is. Is it a lie to tell a man who hasn't identified himself as straight, bi or poly? That's where the gray area lies.

It's easier for those of us who prefer other women, because the most a woman is going to do is walk away- you're not likely to be beaten, raped or murdered (or all 3) by a woman who feels spurned, but you are likely to by a man who does.

this is exactly what I have been trying to say. Thanks Kelsie.

that's the problem . that's the nature of the beast. Why are there bullies from time immemorial . It's the nature of the human condition from when the first group of monkeys attacked and killed another monkey then proceeded to make a meal . the goal of the human condition should be enlightenment but it seems it's going to take a while to get there.

 Men lie to us all the time. They swear they are straight just wanting sex, then most admit they are gay & want us to just be a gay man with them. It's so upsetting. I've meet so many men like that. It's all a game & we should take care of ourselves first, be honest but take care of yourself GF's.

It's very difficult to tell a man who's interested that you're trans, and very dangerous not tell a man who's interested that you're trans. What I suggest to friends who are transitioning is that they go to gay bars during their transition, which brings it's own issues. But if someone is in a gay bar and interested, they're probably bi, or poly, or.....etc, etc, so it brings a great deal of safety.

But a trans*woman picking up a cisgender male in a cis-bar is something I strongly recommend people against, especially during the early stages of transition, when you're still defining yourself.

I just think about a topic like this ending up on a cis site where trans people are called "losers", "deceivers" or "dime a dozen" because we think we have a pass on not disclosing our true selves. I can see this from a flip side of the coin. It can breed contempt for us and further complicate OUR lives as well if they think we are ALL trying to hide ourselves and intentionally deceive. This will not do us any good in the long run and keep us where we are now. I am just trying to see this issue from both sides. How are we ever going to get people to accept and trust us with this issue out there. Just food for thought, no judgment intended.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 09:09:03 PM
I just think about a topic like this ending up on a cis site where trans people are called "losers", "deceivers" or "dime a dozen" because we think we have a pass on not disclosing our true selves. I can see this from a flip side of the coin. It can breed contempt for us and further complicate OUR lives as well if they think we are ALL trying to hide ourselves and intentionally deceive. This will not do us any good in the long run and keep us where we are now. I am just trying to see this issue from both sides. How are we ever going to get people to accept and trust us with this issue out there. Just food for thought, no judgment intended.

makes sense.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 09:09:03 PM
I just think about a topic like this ending up on a cis site where trans people are called "losers", "deceivers" or "dime a dozen" because we think we have a pass on not disclosing our true selves. I can see this from a flip side of the coin. It can breed contempt for us and further complicate OUR lives as well if they think we are ALL trying to hide ourselves and intentionally deceive. This will not do us any good in the long run and keep us where we are now. I am just trying to see this issue from both sides. How are we ever going to get people to accept and trust us with this issue out there. Just food for thought, no judgment intended.

Well said

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 08:23:49 PM
If they have indicated they prefer not to have a relationship with a Trans person or are secure with their chosen gender identification it is.

Are you talking about just pre-op trans women or post-op women. See the difference there. Once I have SRS in a year and a half, I will no longer consider myself trans at all, but a woman.  So do I go about disclosing my entire very confusing, incredibly complicated life? When I was three, I wasn't allowed to walk and was in a hospital because of sciatica and issues with my genitals. 'Nuff aid about that. But, hopefully this is moot for me and things works out with the guy I am in love with right now. He has issues with me not having a vagina. But he does love me, it's just so hard. And sometimes I wish I met him when I was post-op just so I could have never have told him and then we would perfect cause we're perfect for each other. He told me yesterday how it's so weird how everything we do turns out so perfect. But do go through all this disclosure business again...when I'm post-op...ugh. Do you know how hard it was getting to this point?

There will be no way to tell I was in any way male once I do this. None. I don't understand why I have to get people to trust trans people. I only identify as trans cause it's easier. I'm intersexed. And I have chromosomes to prove it. But I'm still trans cause i'm transitioning, even if it's from I-to-F. I have people who know I'm trans and will talk about non-passing trans women right in front of me. It can be awkward.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 09:09:03 PM
I just think about a topic like this ending up on a cis site where trans people are called "losers", "deceivers" or "dime a dozen" because we think we have a pass on not disclosing our true selves. I can see this from a flip side of the coin. It can breed contempt for us and further complicate OUR lives as well if they think we are ALL trying to hide ourselves and intentionally deceive. This will not do us any good in the long run and keep us where we are now. I am just trying to see this issue from both sides. How are we ever going to get people to accept and trust us with this issue out there. Just food for thought, no judgment intended.

If one judges from ->-bleeped-<-, which is probably the most popular general online forum, then people are reasonably understanding of non-disclosure, even for pre-ops actually. Because 1. it's a privacy issue, and 2. transwomen are women, pre-op or post-op, and it's the sex partner's prejudice that causes them not to be perceived that way, and one shouldn't condone prejudice. So the only reason for a lot of people to suggest disclosure is for safety reasons.

For the record, I agree that full disclosure is *ideal* politically (it educates people), but I don't think it's unethical not to disclose to someone who you don't consider an important part of your life. People don't disclose possible disqualifiers about them all the time. It doesn't hurt anyone or ruin anyone's life to sleep with a transwoman once or a few times.

I think there might be some idealism here form people who haven't extensively lived this experience. I was *really* out for a few years in grad school, and it was *really* exhausting to have to answer all these questions when you just want to have sex with someone. It's really not sexy. Sometimes you just want to have fun, casual sex and it really ruins the mood to be talking about all this heavy stuff. For better or for worse, I haven't managed to integrate "By the way I'm trans" into my seduction routine.

So yes, I'm having sex tomorrow with someone I haven't disclosed to and it's going to be awesome and fun (we've done it before so I know that). I don't feel dishonest about it because he can't tell the difference, and his only reason to potentially reject me would be him being transphobic. We might get more emotionally involved and at that point I'll tell him. But for now we're just having fun and I don't feel an obligation to tell him.

Quote from: Joanna Dark
Are you talking about just pre-op trans women or post-op women. See the difference there. Once I have SRS in a year and a half, I will no longer consider myself trans at all, but a woman. 

The problem with this, is that you're in a minority. The vast majority of trans* women are non-op, or pre-op......but out of those who identify as pre-op, very few actually have the bottom surgery done due to the cost.

You're a woman anyway, no matter if you have an innie or an outtie down there. It simply doesn't matter. What does matter is how people react to you. You're very, very lucky that you can afford to have SRS. It's the exception, not the rule though,

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 09:09:03 PM
I just think about a topic like this ending up on a cis site where trans people are called "losers", "deceivers" or "dime a dozen" because we think we have a pass on not disclosing our true selves. I can see this from a flip side of the coin. It can breed contempt for us and further complicate OUR lives as well if they think we are ALL trying to hide ourselves and intentionally deceive. This will not do us any good in the long run and keep us where we are now. I am just trying to see this issue from both sides. How are we ever going to get people to accept and trust us with this issue out there. Just food for thought, no judgment intended.

Like I said, I have no problem with disclosure and will do it myself, but I find it hypocritical of a man that hides his entire past before a one night stand sit and judge a woman for not disclosing something from hers.  And I see that all the time.  Like the girl owes him all the details in the world, but he can keep everything secret.  Personally, that's why I'm not a fan of those sort of things and believe intimacy should be had only after emotional connection nor can I see that developing without full honesty, but it does change the fact that this happens and not everyone shares my view.  In those cases, I don't think the girl is any more guilty than the man for not disclosing their background before hooking up.

And regardless of what we say or do, there are many in the cis world that will call us names to no end.  Even if we are doing the "right" thing or try to win their approval.  It will never happen.  It's sad but true.