Quote from: KelsieJ on March 13, 2014, 09:33:44 PM
The problem with this, is that you're in a minority. The vast majority of trans* women are non-op, or pre-op......but out of those who identify as pre-op, very few actually have the bottom surgery done due to the cost.

You're a woman anyway, no matter if you have an innie or an outtie down there. It simply doesn't matter. What does matter is how people react to you. You're very, very lucky that you can afford to have SRS. It's the exception, not the rule though,

I haven't had SRS. I'm poor. I am on food stamps. But I am managine to save money. It's a matter of choices. Does having a nice phone matter, or transition. I got my phone from Obama. Does going on vacation matter, or transtion. I walk arounf with my ex-BF now BFF, soon to be agin BF. I'm young, have no family, i live with my mom who let me move back so I could save money for SRS. I mean if you have a fmaily and kids, yes, it's harder. But if you're young and have no kids, you can save the money for SRS. or take out a loan. You can also go to South America where it doesnt cost 21,000. It costs half that. I'm pretty sure there are tanssexuals in SA and they are not coming to the US for surgery. So, why would I do it here when I could do it there for half the cost. It can be done. I will make it happen or die trying. It's about how much you want it. But I dont want it. I need it.

OK, I will try a hypothetical here:

You go out with a cis male who identifies as hetero. You don't tell him you are trans and sleep with him. At some point a co-worker or someone knows who you are and tells the guys boss who is a homophobe. The guys boss fires him from his job after several years of service. The guy want to know why he is being fired and finds out you are a transsexual and his boss doesn't accept him sleeping with you. Now he is pissed because you did not tell him, got him fired and he loses everything. What do you think he will do to you? You're actions affect other people and their lives. How do you casually dismiss their feelings and potential damage?

Quote from: mandonlym on March 13, 2014, 09:29:34 PM
If one judges from ->-bleeped-<-, which is probably the most popular general online forum, then people are reasonably understanding of non-disclosure, even for pre-ops actually. Because 1. it's a privacy issue, and 2. transwomen are women, pre-op or post-op, and it's the sex partner's prejudice that causes them not to be perceived that way, and one shouldn't condone prejudice. So the only reason for a lot of people to suggest disclosure is for safety reasons.

For the record, I agree that full disclosure is *ideal* politically (it educates people), but I don't think it's unethical not to disclose to someone who you don't consider an important part of your life. People don't disclose possible disqualifiers about them all the time. It doesn't hurt anyone or ruin anyone's life to sleep with a transwoman once or a few times.

I think there might be some idealism here form people who haven't extensively lived this experience. I was *really* out for a few years in grad school, and it was *really* exhausting to have to answer all these questions when you just want to have sex with someone. It's really not sexy. Sometimes you just want to have fun, casual sex and it really ruins the mood to be talking about all this heavy stuff. For better or for worse, I haven't managed to integrate "By the way I'm trans" into my seduction routine.

So yes, I'm having sex tomorrow with someone I haven't disclosed to and it's going to be awesome and fun (we've done it before so I know that). I don't feel dishonest about it because he can't tell the difference, and his only reason to potentially reject me would be him being transphobic. We might get more emotionally involved and at that point I'll tell him. But for now we're just having fun and I don't feel an obligation to tell him.

Well , there is no need to feel an obligation. at this stage your taking each other at face value. Your both out to have a good time. Your both adults and that what adults do.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 09:43:38 PM
OK, I will try a hypothetical here:

You go out with a cis male who identifies as hetero. You don't tell him you are trans and sleep with him. At some point a co-worker or someone knows who you are and tells the guys boss who is a homophobe. The guys boss fires him from his job after several years of service. The guy want to know why he is being fired and finds out you are a transsexual and his boss doesn't accept him sleeping with you. Now he is pissed because you did not tell him, got him fired and he loses everything. What do you think he will do to you? You're actions affect other people and their lives. How do you casually dismiss their feelings and potential damage?

In this case the problem is not that you are trans. The problem is that the guy's boss is a homophobe. Just transform this situation from gender status to race. Say you're 1/8 black and don't disclose to a guy. His boss who is a member of the KKK finds out and fires the guy you slept with. Is it your fault? I would say no.

Quote from: Joanna Dark
I haven't had SRS. I'm poor. I am on food stamps. But I am managine to save money. It's a matter of choices. Does having a nice phone matter, or transition. I got my phone from Obama. Does going on vacation matter, or transtion. I walk arounf with my ex-BF now BFF, soon to be agin BF. I'm young, have no family, i live with my mom who let me move back so I could save money for SRS. I mean if you have a fmaily and kids, yes, it's harder. But if you're young and have no kids, you can save the money for SRS. or take out a loan. You can also go to South America where it doesnt cost 21,000. It costs half that. I'm pretty sure there are tanssexuals in SA and they are not coming to the US for surgery. So, why would I do it here when I could do it there for half the cost. It can be done. I will make it happen or die trying. It's about how much you want it. But I dont want it. I need it.

Living with your mom has to be an immense help, as is being young. Again though, it shows that you're one of the lucky ones, because most of us don't have understanding parents or people to support us through transition. Most of us lose our families and loved ones, our husbands or wives, our kids, our homes, our jobs, etc.

I'm genuinely happy for you that you have the things you need in place to transition, and yes, it is a need. But please understand that I wasn't attacking you at all, just saying that you're in a minority. And you are.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 08:23:49 PM
If they have indicated they prefer not to have a relationship with a Trans person or are secure with their chosen gender identification it is.

If they have indicated this, why the hell am I dating them?  Where did this come from?  I'm talking about average joe not being owed a complete history of everything private about me that he might not like.

Quote from: KelsieJ on March 13, 2014, 09:50:06 PM
Living with your mom has to be an immense help, as is being young. Again though, it shows that you're one of the lucky ones, because most of us don't have understanding parents or people to support us through transition. Most of us lose our families and loved ones, our husbands or wives, our kids, our homes, our jobs, etc.

I'm genuinely happy for you that you have the things you need in place to transition, and yes, it is a need. But please understand that I wasn't attacking you at all, just saying that you're in a minority. And you are.

Oh I totally got what you were saying. I know I'm lucky. I know I'm very lucky. I should prolly thank God. Ok, Just did. haha hehe

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 09:43:38 PM
OK, I will try a hypothetical here:

You go out with a cis male who identifies as hetero. You don't tell him you are trans and sleep with him. At some point a co-worker or someone knows who you are and tells the guys boss who is a homophobe. The guys boss fires him from his job after several years of service. The guy want to know why he is being fired and finds out you are a transsexual and his boss doesn't accept him sleeping with you. Now he is pissed because you did not tell him, got him fired and he loses everything. What do you think he will do to you? You're actions affect other people and their lives. How do you casually dismiss their feelings and potential damage?

Why does everyone hate trans women in your scenarios? I can't help if the guy's boss is a bigot. It's prolly unethical to work for and continue to support people like that, truthfully. Do you know how long I have planning this? Pretty long. Ever since I got of prison when I was 20 years old, 11 years ago. Ya see, having messed up genitals kinda messes ya up in the head and when I was 15 I started shooting heroin. I don't wanna go back to that. I went to school, graduated head of my class and was runner up for Valedictorian and became a women's magazine editor. I'm prolly going to go to grad school in order to finish my transtion and then start over. But ill be damned if my hellish nightmare life that is finally turning into a beautiful dream is derailed by anyone. And yes disclosing to someone just because its the right thing to do could blow up in your face. You disclose after you know them. You can read them. Not before. That might take awhile. It depends. Life is not B&W.

BTW, not everyone is as bad as you think. My BF, ex, whateva, is a conservative Christian yet he tells everyone about me. But I'm also a hermie so, that prolly helps.

Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 13, 2014, 09:56:49 PM
If they have indicated this, why the hell am I dating them?  Where did this come from?  I'm talking about average joe not being owed a complete history of everything private about me that he might not like.

^This. Very well said.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 13, 2014, 09:59:46 PM
Why does everyone hate trans women in your scenarios?

Only for the fact we are talking about MTF and what should or not be disclosed to cis males.

There is no hate in me at all. A question was asked and I replied with my opinion, nothing else. How do we come to understandings without both sides presenting their views? I have not attacked anyone tonight, just debating a topic in a mature manner.

Sidebar!

Quote from: learningtolive on March 13, 2014, 09:40:03 PM

And regardless of what we say or do, there are many in the cis world that will call us names to no end.  Even if we are doing the "right" thing or try to win their approval.  It will never happen.  It's sad but true.

Never say never. We are rapidly approaching "Singularity" (good book BTW), a no-going-back-point of technology where nanotechnology and genetic engineering will allow people to edit and modify themselves pretty much at will (assuming the machines don't just do away with humans). If you can make yourself blue with octopus arms, being transgendered will seem pretty tame. The social norms of today will either adapt to that reality or be replaced by something else.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 13, 2014, 10:09:22 PM
Only for the fact we are talking about MTF and what should or not be disclosed to cis males.

There is no hate in me at all. A question was asked and I replied with my opinion, nothing else. How do we come to understandings without both sides presenting their views? I have not attacked anyone tonight, just debating a topic in a mature manner.

Again are you talking about pre-op or post-op disclosure? They are different beasts.

so basically the problem is, if you want to have a night of sex , there is a statistical advantage to not mentioning your birth gender.

Quote from: stephaniec on March 13, 2014, 10:20:39 PM
so basically the problem is, if you want to have a night of sex , there is a statistical advantage to not mentioning your birth gender.

For a corresponding increase in the probability of winding up alone with a black eye... 

Quote from: stephaniec on March 13, 2014, 10:20:39 PM
so basically the problem is, if you want to have a night of sex , there is a statistical advantage to not mentioning your birth gender.

I don't have problems picking guys up (or them picking me up, whichever), and I'm pretty sure most of the ones I sleep with wouldn't care. But it totally ruins the mood to have to talk about it in an early-date situation. I only disclose if I decide that I want to be in a relationship with the guy, although my activism is becoming increasingly public so soon people can probably ID me using a google search.

Quote from: mandonlym on March 13, 2014, 10:39:41 PM
I don't have problems picking guys up (or them picking me up, whichever), and I'm pretty sure most of the ones I sleep with wouldn't care. But it totally ruins the mood to have to talk about it in an early-date situation. I only disclose if I decide that I want to be in a relationship with the guy, although my activism is becoming increasingly public so soon people can probably ID me using a google search.

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. It just seems everyone that was posting only concern was that if they said anything the guy was taking off . I really meant not to be mean , it was just an observation.

Quote from: stephaniec on March 13, 2014, 10:45:40 PM
I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. It just seems everyone that was posting only concern was that if they said anything the guy was taking off . I really meant not to be mean , it was just an observation.

Oh no I wasn't offended. I was just being explanatory. You'll be able to tell if I'm offended. I get on top of a big old high horse.

Quote from: Ms Grace on March 13, 2014, 04:47:41 PM
Normally I'd agree wholeheartedly - thing is mental health is a big factor in this, someone could kill themselves after this kind of revelation and I don't believe it is fair enough to say they need to get over their transphobia and prejudice.

I have to respectfully disagree. Not that someone couldn't kill themselves, sure they could and has been mentioned have, but that it wouldn't be the fault of the transperson.

My logic is the exact same reason why I have broken up with people who threatened suicide if I left. I am only responsible for my own actions, unless I am being actively coercive. If I for example, threatened to blackmail, harm, etc unless someone does what I want then I am being actively coercive. If a partner says they will slit their wrists if I leave do I have some sort of moral obligation to stay? I don't think I do.

I would wager far more people kill themselves after being sent a divorce notice than sleeping with a transsexual; yet we never blame someone for wanting a divorce. To me, it just seems impossible to really blame someone for someone else's self harm. Which means yes, I take the unpopular view that bullies should be punished for bullying, but if the person they bullied committed suicide they are still not murderers. Unless there is some actively coercive element (i.e. goading someone to do it, threatening harm on others if one doesn't commit suicide, etc) I just cannot transfer the blame to those who didn't commit the action.

I do however fully understand how you could view it the way you do, and I used to view it in much the same way until I had the threat of suicide from a girlfriend (It wasn't a credible threat in my view, but you can't assume anything when it comes to suicide). After that I reevaluated my moral judgements on these things, after all should I be constrained by the threat of someone else's self harm?

Edit: For double negative, my English teacher would be mad lol.

How do I know what part of my past history is going to potentially end up making someone commit suicide because I had sex with them and they didn't 'know'? Will it be the part of my genes that say I'm part Jewish, perhaps even part African? I didn't do my due diligence thoroughly and they're a closet Nazi. Oops. Oh well, there'll be a future where we'll be able to have our genome analysed and all traits, behaviours, predispositions, future tendencies, ethnicities etc. exposed. A potential partner will then be able to request this data for them to pore over for compatibility. Everyone will be happy! For example, potential partners will be able to avoid being tricked into marrying someone they thought was one gender only later to transition to another. If 'trick' sounds offensive, that's because it is. I apologise. Judge not, that ye be not judged, blah..

Anyway, there appears to be an obvious divide here. Today, I read very little about goings-on in the "community", ignore anti-gay and transphobic diatribes and do not personally know any other transgender people in real life. Only people very close to me know about me. When I was fresh into transition, I was all ears and all eyes. Any transphobic remarks I took personally. I was up on all LGBT current events. I also had an 'acceptable' image to defend to the few people I came out to. Things were a little different back then. Opinions were different. Live a few years, they'll change. Nothing's written in stone. As mandonlym said, it does sound like idealism. You know, like students fresh out of college etc.

How I proceed in my relationships is of my own concern, only.

As you were.

But of course the man we are about to start dating has a right to information about our most personal and embarrassing struggles and a complete run down of our medical record! Shish! If we don't inform we are basically rapists (or so I've been told...soundly). Not telling a guy and going to bed with him is fraud and rape by deception. Just like women who have been raped, have been molested as children, have had psychological issues, had many sex partners while young, had an abortion, have a grandmother of mixed race etc, we must also immediately confess, because the guy has a RIGHT to know about these things in case they should be some kind of a turn off for him. If we don't fess up we run the risk of potentially forcing the poor man into caving our skulls in with a tire iron, and that is not good. Killing a trans woman can be a rather big nuisance to a man. If the murder should happen to be investigated, the poor feller could end up missing work to attend the trial, and we can't have that.

Actually I don't really feel this way anymore. I used to though, but I guess my Stockholm syndrome just gave out over the years. In my daily life my transition has become so distant and irrelevant I never tell anyone anymore. Should I however develop a fetish for being treated like dirt, then I might reconsider, but for now I'm good living a life that doesn't really involve a lot of trans-related issues.

This is a delicate subject for many including myself. I would first like to say that anybody, straight, gay, women, trans....whoever, deserve to know the truth!! when to do that....is the question. I don't announce to anyone about my born gender, unless there is a need too....doctors, children's teachers (not all) and possibly new friends or boy friends.

I had always thought I would inform anyone at first contact, I later changed to the view of informing them the first time we met. The few dates I have had, I failed to inform them at all. The first few dates were just a one and done...another went on for a little while but no intimate contact. My last relationship went on for awhile and things became much more intimate then I expected...but it felt so good...and so right. He did want to have sex but I told him this is something I will not do and cannot at this time....I left it at that. He accepted that and things went on ok.

Things eventually ended. I could of stayed with him...but in truth I think it was the lack of sex that created distance in us. I also wanted to end things rather than tell him the truth of my born gender. I do feel very bad that I could not tell him my background before the first kiss....but it was not intentional. In fact in the 6 months we were together, we probably seen each other 6-8 times. Mostly due to busy schedules but also because I kept telling him I couldn't see him any more without an explanation.....but he kept coming back!!

It wasn't that I felt so terrible about deceiving him of what parts I had that ended the relationship, but more that I could not be truthful of my past and even present things in life. Even if I had surgery and was able to have sex correctly....I can't hide who I was in the past and I can't hide the fact I am the father of my children. I so much enjoy being held and caressed by him!! I miss him very much.

I have decided that from here on I will inform anyone prior to the point of the first kiss....but I don't feel I need to any earlier than this. This shouldn't be a problem though since I have decided not to pursue anyone in the near future. The problem is I have a hard time preventing not being pursued...I have met some very nice men that would like to have a date....rather then tell them the truth of my born gender I respectfully decline.

This is a part of being trans that really SUCKS!! I never ever thought I would attract any attention form anyone...therefore never planned on what to do if it happened. Just today one of my co workers wants to set me up with her brother-in law...good looking man, but alas...no can do!!!

interesting perspective.