Quote from: Buffy on August 09, 2007, 11:44:53 PM

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

If I had transitioned, not passed and could not live as I do now, then yes Suicide would have been my prefered option.

I did not go into this aiming just to survive or looking like a guy in a dress, I wanted total integration, total acceptance and a life like any other woman. I did not transition to be a transsexual, that was my worst fear, if that had happened, then I would have ended my life.

Buffy

I was not certain of anything, except I was a woman, not a transsexual. I am not an activist or a hero. I am simply another woman, making her way through the world as best she might.

I was over 45, take note Renee Richards, and things have gone well. Voice is passable in person and on the phone. Yah!!

My ex had told me when I was preparing that she thought that softening with E would make my never very strongly male features fall within a female range. She was right.

Breast growth is adequate. Hips have spread (yikes, and they continue to do so! No sugar, no sugar ... ok, just a smidge of chocolate, if you insist!)

So I am fortunate. I know others who have not been. They struggle badly in some cases.

I cannot know what I would or might have done. Only what I have done: I now lead the life of a woman.

My friends and sons and lover love me. As do our pets!

I have worked since transition with one gg who, although I find her very petite, totally gg, is often queried about whether or not she is T. Go figure. I was standing with her when that occurred and was shocked. The person had me pegged as gg.

So, I am lucky and hate the thought of anyone suiciding. Nor would I ever advise a person to do so.

Yet, if I had been less fortunate .... I do not know. Maybe. I do not want to imagine anymore what pain that must be.

These answers are based on the claims being true, not just me being silly and believing them.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

Yes.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

Yes, although avoid social contact.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

Yes. There are always such nuts out there, why should I care what they think?

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

Yes.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

Yes.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

Would choose suicide.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

Would choose suicide.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

I don't think suicide is wrong. Just that doing it so that it will not hurt loved ones is hard (but in the scenarios with no loved ones that is not a problem).

Fear is only a manifestation of ego. Lose the ego and fear will go away. If you are choked up with so much ego based fear that you feel that you will end your own life, you have more to work on than just having your body match your inner self.

No matter how well or poorly you think you pass, or can pass, you cannnot control how others see you and how others see you is irrelevant to your core self i.e. the true self once the ego is stripped away, the true self that existed before you entered this particular sojourn and will be with you on the next.

One can replace fear, attachment, anger, pride and jealousy with love, compassion, contentment and understanding. It is not easy though, it takes almost as much work to let go of one's ego as it does to transition. Learning that how others see us is beyond our control and is irrelevant has been one of the most difficult tenets of Buddhism for me to put into practice. Most of us allow ourselves to let events control our happiness. We are driving to work, the light is green. Boom! We are happy! The light is red and doesn't want to change to greed. Boom! We seethe! We have to find a parking place, the guy to our left cuts in front and steals the space! We are about to explode! We haven't even started our workday and we are already mentally destroyed. But who destroyed us. The traffic lights? The guy? No, we destroy ourselves.

Here, the author of the thread is setting out to destroy herself by asking the wrong questions.

Posted on: August 10, 2007, 08:15:27 AM

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Quote from: Sheila on July 24, 2007, 06:38:41 PM
When a person is in their last stages of transition, I believe you will always be in transition, you have answered all those questions. I know I have and I have tried the suicide part as well, I'm not very good at it. I think one of the questions I answered to a dear friend of mine. I asked the question then answered it to her as to show my feelings. I told her that I'm going to transition into a woman, I maybe the  ugliest woman around, but I will be a woman. She looked at me and gave me a hug and said that I would never be ugly. You have to answer all those questions and more,honestly to yourself. If you can't, then don't try and transition, you will only make yourself depressed.
Sheila

Your beauty shines through even in your avatar, Sheila.

Posted on: August 10, 2007, 08:18:53 AM

---

When I clicked on this thread, I didn't get past the first question, which, quite frankly, struck me as ludicrous.

So I went back and read more:

QuoteIf you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable.

In all due respect, I find it astounding that anyone would turn their own power over to others and let others dictate the very nature of their being. But this attitude is so reflective of the superficial, vacuous Western culture, I should not be surprised at all, I guess.

Quote from: Jessica on July 24, 2007, 01:39:07 PM
If you were certain you would never pass, would you still transition?

If you were certain you would never be accepted would you still transition?

If you were certain people would still see you as your birth gender even though they may hide their reaction, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely mental, would you still transition?

If you thought Gender Dysphoria were entirely physical, would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find love and no one would want to be with you would you still transition?

If you were certain that you would never find anyone to love who loves you, and were certain that you would never be accepted or pass, is it a viable decision to just 'live with it' and be miserable. 

I know that virtually everyone here is against suicide, however, I have to ask that if you are certain that you will never pass or be accepted, and at most you are certain that in choosing to transition you will never find love, and it becomes virtually impossible to 'live with it' is suicide ever justifiable?

Jessica

Really Good questions Jessica and one's I have also asked myself from time to time. I still have a lot of doubts and worries about how well I pass but there's no way I want to be male...

I sometimes go through it all with a fine tooth comb and I am aware there's so many things I need to have done surgically and cosmetically to look completely female. I know I'm not the worst and I know I'm not the best either and I continue to struggle with myself wondering if it's all worth it. But I just can't live with the alternatives...

I think we all feel suicidal at one point or another and your feelings are normal but try and think about other things and not think of your gender all the time.

I TOTALLY agree with Melissa

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 08:31:50 AM
If you are choked up with so much ego based fear that you feel that you will end your own life, you have more to work on than just having your body match your inner self.

SO TRUE!

Quote
No matter how well or poorly you think you pass, or can pass, you cannnot control how others see you

EXACTLY

Quote
Most of us allow ourselves to let events control our happiness.
In all due respect, I find it astounding that anyone would turn their own power over to others and let others dictate the very nature of their being. But this attitude is so reflective of the superficial, vacuous Western culture, I should not be surprised at all, I guess.

Eleanor Roosevelt did say something similar once. But who listened to her?

Hope, Light, Laughter, Love & Respect

Maebh

PS And of course I would also totally disagree with Taru.
In My Humble Opinion suicide is NEVER a solution. It is not a choice: on the contrary it the ultimate surrendering of your power.
Believe me I had my share of trials, pains and tribulations: Even before birth I survived a botched abortion attempt, was rejected by my mother, sexualy, physicaly and mentaly abused by the people who were supposed to care for me and later-on I was tortured and emprisoned for no other reason than my ethnic origin. But believe me never ever would I contemplate suicide and let them win. Oh no! And if you don't mind me being blunt I will always see suicide at the last desperate expression of a totally selfish and frustrated Ego who can only assert itself in an immature, cowardly and destructive manner.

PS And of course I would also totally disagree with Taru.
In My Humble Opinion suicide is NEVER a solution. It is not a choice: on the contrary it the ultimate surrendering of your power.
Believe me I had my share of trials, pains and tribulations: Even before birth I survived a botched abortion attempt, was rejected by my mother, sexualy, physicaly and mentaly abused by the people who were supposed to care for me and later-on I was tortured and emprisoned for no other reason than my ethnic origin. But believe me never ever would I contemplate suicide and let them win. Oh no! And if you don't mind me being blunt I will always see suicide at the last desperate expression of a totally selfish and frustrated Ego who can only assert itself in an immature, cowardly and destructive manner.

Maebh,
   I love what you wrote. I have not heard it put so well. If my therapist or I should say my first one who I fired had said what you did, I would have not even thought of suicide ever again. Thank you.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on August 10, 2007, 04:34:28 PM
PS And of course I would also totally disagree with Taru.
In My Humble Opinion suicide is NEVER a solution. It is not a choice: on the contrary it the ultimate surrendering of your power.
Believe me I had my share of trials, pains and tribulations: Even before birth I survived a botched abortion attempt, was rejected by my mother, sexualy, physicaly and mentaly abused by the people who were supposed to care for me and later-on I was tortured and emprisoned for no other reason than my ethnic origin. But believe me never ever would I contemplate suicide and let them win. Oh no! And if you don't mind me being blunt I will always see suicide at the last desperate expression of a totally selfish and frustrated Ego who can only assert itself in an immature, cowardly and destructive manner.

I don't think there is  a need to win anything. Just to be happy. If being happy is impossible then change circumstances/mindset and find a way to be happy in the future. If that is also impossible in an objective way and there is a long enough period of time to assess that then I think that suicide is a good option if there are no people who would be hurt (as is the case in those hypothetical scenarios).

Quote from: taru on August 11, 2007, 01:10:00 AM

I don't think there is  a need to win anything. Just to be happy.

Again the limited Western/American Dream's vision of life! Is there nothing more to life than just being happy? What about the cost of it? What about responsibility? If driving a big gaz guzling SUV is what makes you happy why care about polution and the destruction of the environment? In the extreme if hurting or putting other people down is what makes you happy why care about their pain or their rights?

Quote
If being happy is impossible then change circumstances/mindset and find a way to be happy in the future.

Yes exactly, happiness is a state of mind, if you cannot change the circumstances you still can change your outlook.

QuoteIf that is also impossible in an objective way and there is a long enough period of time to assess that then I think that suicide is a good option if there are no people who would be hurt (as is the case in those hypothetical scenarios).

With due respect, how do you define objective way? How can anyone be objective when they are in the grips of deep depression? How can someone be objective when  blinded by fear, pain or despair, believe me I know...  I have been there. To be objective one would have to be able to look from the outside and balance the multiple blessings one is graced with against the subjective perspective of the victim mind-set.

Finally how would you know that no-one would be hurt or miss you?

There I step down from my soap-box.

HLLL&R

Maebh

PS. Of course, being an Old (and, thank God, not yet Wary) Warrior I do believe that either the light or the darkness will win or loose. You just need to know wich side you are on.

I can't imagine how much bad karma suicide would bring to the next life!



The Four Noble Truths

Quote
1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.



1. Life means suffering.

To live means to suffer, because the human nature is not perfect and neither is the world we live in. During our lifetime, we inevitably have to endure physical suffering such as pain, sickness, injury, tiredness, old age, and eventually death; and we have to endure psychological suffering like sadness, fear, frustration, disappointment, and depression. Although there are different degrees of suffering and there are also positive experiences in life that we perceive as the opposite of suffering, such as ease, comfort and happiness, life in its totality is imperfect and incomplete, because our world is subject to impermanence. This means we are never able to keep permanently what we strive for, and just as happy moments pass by, we ourselves and our loved ones will pass away one day, too.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

The origin of suffering is attachment to transient things and the ignorance thereof. Transient things do not only include the physical objects that surround us, but also ideas, and -in a greater sense- all objects of our perception. Ignorance is the lack of understanding of how our mind is attached to impermanent things. The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardour, pursuit of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow. Objects of attachment also include the idea of a "self" which is a delusion, because there is no abiding self. What we call "self" is just an imagined entity, and we are merely a part of the ceaseless becoming of the universe.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

The cessation of suffering can be attained through nirodha. Nirodha means the unmaking of sensual craving and conceptual attachment. The third noble truth expresses the idea that suffering can be ended by attaining dispassion.  by removing the cause of Nirodha extinguishes all forms of clinging and attachment. This means that suffering can be overcome through human activity, simply suffering. Attaining and perfecting dispassion is a process of many levels that ultimately results in the state of Nirvana. Nirvana means freedom from all worries, troubles, complexes, fabrications and ideas. Nirvana is not comprehensible for those who have not attained it.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

There is a path to the end of suffering - a gradual path of self-improvement, which is described more detailed in the Eightfold Path. It is the middle way between the two extremes of excessive self-indulgence (hedonism) and excessive self-mortification (asceticism); and it leads to the end of the cycle of rebirth. The latter quality discerns it from other paths which are merely "wandering on the wheel of becoming", because these do not have a final object. The path to the end of suffering can extend over many lifetimes, throughout which every individual rebirth is subject to karmic conditioning. Craving, ignorance, delusions, and its effects will disappear gradually, as progress is made on the path.

Guys, attachment is the cause of all suffering, all the questions at the beginning of this thread are tied to attachment, there is a path to the cessation of suffering, this path takes as much work as the path to transition, nothing is easy, sometimes I wonder if bad Karma put me in a male body this time, sometimes I think good karma did, in a way, I consider this (transsexuality) as a gift. Whatver it is, not many people have lived a life like mine and I have finally achieved what I set out to do. I never thought if I don't pass absolutely I will kill myself, I never let negative thought s like that enter into my mind, plus I don't set myself up with delusional expectations, I discovered Buddhism after I began transition, I wish I had fond it before. Still, I always determined to be "the best I could be" that is all you can do. 

Others perception of you is their perception only and completely beyond the individual's control.

The sooner we learn that the better, there is already enough suffering in life and in transition, I would beg people who are in the process (for the most part, I am done) not to let others define them, or worse yet, give them the power over teir life. This is very dangerous thinking.

So we have to work on ending clinging and craving rather than not only craving and clinging oursleves but encouraging that others do so and then suggesting suicide when the predictable outcome of suffering results from craving, clinging, ignorance and delusion.

Quote from: Maebh on August 11, 2007, 02:19:02 AM
Again the limited Western/American Dream's vision of life! Is there nothing more to life than just being happy? What about the cost of it? What about responsibility? If driving a big gaz guzling SUV is what makes you happy why care about polution and the destruction of the environment? In the extreme if hurting or putting other people down is what makes you happy why care about their pain or their rights?

This was an argument against the need to "win" anything. Much of the problem of pollution and hurting others comes from competition and trying to win things. (I do have strong stances e.g. on private cars and cities not being compatible, but that is offtopic)

Quote

QuoteIf that is also impossible in an objective way and there is a long enough period of time to assess that then I think that suicide is a good option if there are no people who would be hurt (as is the case in those hypothetical scenarios).

With due respect, how do you define objective way? How can anyone be objective when they are in the grips of deep depression? How can someone be objective when  blinded by fear, pain or despair, believe me I know...  I have been there. To be objective one would have to be able to look from the outside and balance the multiple blessings one is graced with against the subjective perspective of the victim mind-set.

I think we have understood the original posters views a little differently. I was referring to a scenario where the pretexts were objective truths e.g. "nobody will ever love the person" etc, the whole scenario is vastly different if the person just feels that "nobody will ever love me".

In the real world getting a more or less objective viewpoint would probably involve e.g.
* ask lots of people
* scourge the net for tips
* ask some professionals
* do lots of soulsearching
* change country and/or wait a few years
* if nothing else works and noone has a solution and every day is suffering - then at somepoint suicide will make more sense than further suffering.

Quote
Finally how would you know that no-one would be hurt or miss you?

In the given scenario that was given as a pretex (i.e. no-one loving). In the end it comes down to how much should people suffer before the "selfish" option. Also the people trying to keep someone alive "no, you may not kill yourself" are selfish from an another viewpoint - they put their feelings before the pain the person is facing.

Quote from: taru on August 11, 2007, 04:31:56 PM
kes you happy why care about their pain or their rights?This was an argument against the need to "win" anything. Much of the problem of pollution and hurting others comes from competition and trying to win things. (I do have strong stances e.g. on private  cars and cities not being compatible, but that is offtopic)

I would agree that co-operation is better than competition. Also that unbrided competition can lead to excesses.
But I also think that sometimes you cannot walk from the fight and have to take a stance.

Quote
I think we have understood the original posters views a little differently. I was referring to a scenario where the pretexts were objective truths e.g. "nobody will ever love the person" etc, the whole scenario is vastly different if the person just feels that "nobody will ever love me".
In the real world getting a more or less objective viewpoint would probably involve e.g.
* ask lots of people
* scourge the net for tips
* ask some professionals
* do lots of soulsearching
* change country and/or wait a few years
* if nothing else works and noone has a solution and every day is suffering - then at somepoint suicide will make more sense than further suffering.

Fair enough! I have no gripes at all with this interpretation.

Quote
In the given scenario that was given as a pretex (i.e. no-one loving). In the end it comes down to how much should people suffer before the "selfish" option. Also the people trying to keep someone alive  "no, you may not kill yourself" are selfish from an another viewpoint - they put their feelings before the pain the person is facing.

I know exactly what you mean there. Only a month ago today I stood by my moribond mother and told her that she could go in peace as there was nothing left to pardon or forgive. The proof was that we (my brother, step brother and step sister) had all travelled to be with her and were all there with her now. As she had asked the drips had been removed, she couldn't eat or drink but survived for a week. She had put on a brave fight and we were all proud of her. My other dead brother and step-brother would be with her too. In the end she passed away peacefully free from pain and mental anguish.

HLLL&R

Maebh

PS. I'm glad for these very important clarifications and hope that all misunderstandings have been resolved.

I still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option.

QuoteBuddhism and Suicide

Dukkha

Ultimately, the Buddhist perspective on suicide needs to be seen in the context of the four noble truths. The first of these sees life as generally a state of suffering or dissatisfaction (dukkha). Someone contemplating suicide is, in one way or another, in a state of suffering, presumably seeking a way to end that suffering. Death, they believe, will bring such suffering to an end. From the Buddhist perspective, however, committing suicide will only lead to further suffering - a worse state in fact.  Consequently, suicide is futile as it only makes things worse. The answer to suffering is to uproot one's innate craving (tanha) and to tread the eightfold path to nibbana or nirvana, a 'state' beyond suffering. In the early Buddhist sangha (community of monks/nuns), attempting suicide or aiding someone to commit suicide was an offence that carried with it expulsion from the order.

Solution

The Buddha's rational solution is to work with what we are and not try to take short cuts out of suffering. This is not to underestimate the terrible suffering that anyone contemplating suicide must go through when usually emotions are strong and persuasive. Support, counselling, help -  in all their various forms - are what someone in a suicidal frame of mind needs most of all.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 11, 2007, 09:09:59 PM
I still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option.

Buddhism and Suicide

The Buddha's rational solution is to work with what we are and not try to take short cuts out of suffering. This is not to underestimate the terrible suffering that anyone contemplating suicide must go through when usually emotions are strong and persuasive. Support, counselling, help -  in all their various forms - are what someone in a suicidal frame of mind needs most of all.

I totally agree with this outlook. May be I wasn't clear about what happened with my mum. She had terminal cancer which had spread to her kidneys, liver and bones. She couldn't speak, eat or drink anymore, her lungs were filling up with fluid. She didn't commit suicide per se, she just asked the doctors to let nature take its course and we supported her decision. We had all travelled from far and wide to be with her. We were all there around her to support her, talk to her*, stroke her, wet her lips (with Whiskey at the end)**, make her as confortable as possible and generally reassure her that she was not alone but loved and at peace. I don't know a lot about Buddhism but I think that compassion is one of its core value and that the way you die is as important as the way you lived.

HLLL&R

Maebh

*Even make her laugh, telling her about antics we had been up to when growing up and that she never knew about.
** When she was semi-conscious: she would then stick her tongue out and smile contently.

QuoteI still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option.

Maybe not everyone is a buddhist and believes like you do?

Although I appreciate your responses. They seem to have a heavily personal religious outlook, as such, not everyone is going to agree with them Melissa.  Personally, I believe certain precepts found within the buddhist philosophy to be true, but, I do not believe all of it.

Anyone who can get rid of all attachments (Positive and Negative) looses what it means to be human.

I understand Your stance and I respect Your right to believe what makes you happy.

It's like the Christian shouting, "But You will GO TO HELL if you suicide!  Don't you get it?"

I don't believe that either

Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on August 16, 2007, 04:14:25 PM

QuoteI still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option.

Maybe not everyone is a buddhist and believes like you do?

Although I appreciate your responses. They seem to have a heavily personal religious outlook, as such, not everyone is going to agree with them Melissa.  Personally, I believe certain precepts found within the buddhist philosophy to be true, but, I do not believe all of it.

Anyone who can get rid of all attachments (Positive and Negative) looses what it means to be human.

I understand Your stance and I respect Your right to believe what makes you happy.

It's like the Christian shouting, "But You will GO TO HELL if you suicide!  Don't you get it?"

I don't believe that either

Jessica

Had I said, "I still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option. Don't they know that they will be doomed with bad karma for several lifetimes," your point would have validity. But I did not say that, did I?

Regardless of religious beliefs, most people would not consider suicide a rational option unless they were suffering a painful and slow death due to a terminal disease.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 05:12:52 PM
Had I said, "I still don't 't get that people are talking about suicide as a rational option. Don't they know that they will be doomed with bad karma for several lifetimes," your point would have validity. But I did not say that, did I?

Well, it seemed *implied* to me as well.

QuoteRegardless of religious beliefs, most people would not consider suicide a rational option unless they were suffering a painful and slow death due to a terminal disease.

You mean like GID?

True, it's not *physical* death. But it is a spiritual death, IMHO.

It's a perfectly rational option to me. It's not a protest, acting out, looking for attention, bitterness... it's just that I've lived a pretty good life thus far, done and seen and felt pretty much everything I could in this lifetime, EXCEPT the one thing I really needed to do and be. Four decades of rationalizing, justifying and hiding in pretty poetic philosophies have run out for me. I have nowhere else to go except transitioning now. I'm glad you've found comfort in buddhism now, but ya gotta understand... I've BEEN there, DONE that. I've gone through religions and spiritual systems like other people go through drugs and alcohol. Sure, I learned a lot of neat things few people will ever realize.

But in the end, nothing... and I mean NOTHING: no amount of wisdom, secret knowledge, love, money, acceptance, kindness... can ever, EVER compensate for the fact that I'm not female. Everything else was just a distraction, a desperate attempt to avoid facing that awful truth. If God Himself offered me eternal life in Heaven, or a mortal life as a woman filled with all the usual pain and suffering... I wouldn't hesitate a moment to take that normal life I deserved. Nothing in existence means more to me. That's sad, and even insane, but... it just is.

I keep saying I "have to make it work" now. But ya know, I'm getting worn out from that too. From *making* things work. I kinda need the world to meet me half-way and LET things work now. Just let me be a woman. No more needing to be some kind of mega-enlightened superhero just to survive the day without having my self-esteem crushed flat. I just want a normal life, normal problems, no better or worst than any other woman. I can't keep waging this war simply to EXIST forever. For now, I'm hangin' in... but I have my limits.

~Kate~

Kate,

In all due respect, you make yourself look shallow and thoughtless by exclaiming, "Buddhism, been there, done that." It is not possible to have reached any minimal level of mindfulness and awareness and reject it so callously.

I am still astounded that we are presenting suicide as a rational option here, knowing that newbies come here looking for guidance. It is irresponsible.

I hope you can find peace, Kate.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 08:39:30 PM
In all due respect, you make yourself look shallow and thoughtless by exclaiming, "Buddhism, been there, done that." It is not possible to have reached any minimal level of mindfulness and awareness and reject it so callously.

I speak for myself only. I realize others have found great comfort and peace in religion. For me, it didn't hold. A mirage that melted in my hands.

QuoteI am still astounded that we are presenting suicide as a rational option here, knowing that newbies come here looking for guidance. It is irresponsible.

It's a tricky balance. I'm not comfortable in pretending many if not most people here don't seriously contemplate suicide. I'm also not comfortable in seeming like I/we advocate it - I don't. There HAS to be another way. But it IS a reality of this condition, and *understanding* how it can become a rational choice for some of us is important, IMHO. Platitudes and poetry and nirvana just don't cut it once you get past a certain point.

This is how *I* feel. Are you telling me I should keep that inside and not bother everyone with it for fear of encouraging them to feel likewise? I don't disagree necessarily, and usually bite my tongue on the subject. I really don't know Melissa, this whole thing is just SO bloody confusing and conflicted, it's like you can't take a breath without hurting SOMEone.

~Kate~

Buddhism isn't a religion the way Westerners define religion.

Kate:

QuoteI speak for myself only. I realize others have found great comfort and peace in religion. For me, it didn't hold. A mirage that melted in my hands.

But you haven't been there, Kate.

And I will repeat, promoting suicide as a rational option to end GID is beyond irresponsible. You backed off of this a little in your last post, that is good.

QuotePlatitudes and poetry and nirvana just don't cut it once you get past a certain point.

Kate, this is a really shallow view of Buddhism or any spiritual belief if that what is if you are alluding to. As long as we place such high import on superficiality, and ignore our true self, our spiritual self, we will suffer immensely. And I am not referring to any religion when I speak of finding oneself spiritually.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 09:07:19 PM
promoting suicide as a rational option to end GID is beyond irresponsible.

I'm not promoting suicide in any way, nor suggesting it as a means to "end the GID." I'm describing how I feel, and why I feel this way. It has nothing to do with avoiding suffering, or ending the GID, or finding an easy way "out." Doing something so drastic and permanent as suicide in an emotional outburst is just plain stupid, IMHO. I GET why, I know that feeling too... but I ALSO know that moods pass, even the most dispairing, darkest, hopeless ones. Been there, done that TOO: up, down, up, down, euphoric, suicidal... on and on. I don't take ANY moods serious anymore. Just more clouds passing in my sky.

And suicide before even TRYING to transition? Geez, people owe themselves to at least give it a shot. Yea, it's terrifying to even think about it. But like it or not, YOU ARE GOING TO DIE someday. Leaving this life as some sort of a martyr, now or in old age by avoiding this "for the sake of others"... well, to me it's just yet ANOTHER invented delusion to avoid facing oneself, and one's Truth.

But... I'm TIRED. Spiritually and emotionally exhausted. I stopped running because I just couldn't anymore. I stopped looking for refuge in every distraction I could find. I'm not bitter. I'm not angry. Just kinda sad, but in a bittersweet way.

It's like this huge, scary dragon has been chasing me all my life. And I ran and ran, hiding behind rocks for a time, behind trees on occasion.... but always running, terrified, on and on...

And now I just said enough already! And stopped and faced the stupid thing. And here she stands now, looming over me, scary as heck. I feel her hot breath. I see her claws scraping the dirt. And I just don't know now what's going to happen. This is IT. This is my fate. This is THE moment my life has been leading up to.

I just can't figure out if she's getting ready to kiss me or swallow me whole. Either way, I'm not budging an inch. No more running. No more hiding. Either way, I've surrendured to my fate.

~Kate~