Quote from: Hikari on March 19, 2014, 01:45:12 PM
All the president is doing is mild toothless sanctions, by all rights we should have went to war to protect our treaty obligations with the Ukraine and the UK.

Also, if it were a totally conventional war, there is absolutely no war Russia could win against NATO.

Quote from: Cindy on March 19, 2014, 05:46:38 PM
It's a bit funny really, the people in Crimera want to be part of Russia, they identify as Russian, but we say they can't be. Whose side are we on?

Quote from: JamesG on March 19, 2014, 11:51:05 AM
Putin just showed the world a textbook example of how to conquer a country without firing a shot.  With extra points for punking out NATO and the Obama Administration.

Between Putin's antics and the US's misadventures in the Middle East, it sets the precedent for the 21st century that the old "might makes right" saying is still true. Sadly...

Quote from: JamesG on March 19, 2014, 02:57:06 PM
There is absolutely no appetite for a war in Europe (unless it's picking on small African countries).  Besides it's civilians and politicians being completely unprepared for this "sudden" rise of a "scary bear",  NATO is a shell of what it was in the early nineties. Most of its conventional forces have been demobilized and all of it has been focused on low-intensity conflict while doing rotations thru Afghanistan.  A fight with Russia would be a rude awakening to NATO I think.

Putin has masterfully parsed the diplomatic and legal gray area between Ukraine and Crimea, and the Russian military executed their very subtle campaign beautifully.  It really was a Clausewitzian masterpiece given the small scale of it.

Quote from: Cindy on March 19, 2014, 05:46:38 PM
It's a bit funny really, the people in Crimera want to be part of Russia, they identify as Russian, but we say they can't be. Whose side are we on?

Quote from: kelly_aus on March 19, 2014, 06:32:42 PM
Historically, Crimea was part of Russia, Khrushchev handed it over in 54.. It has a majority Russian population..

Quote from: kelly_aus on March 19, 2014, 06:32:42 PM
Historically, Crimea was part of Russia, Khrushchev handed it over in 54.. It has a majority Russian population..

QuoteInformation about the meeting of the leaders of the Maidan Oleg Tyagnibok (party "Freedom") and Dmitry Yarosh ("Right sector") became part of the public domain. It took place on February 25 in Kiev restaurant "Turgenef" on Large Zhytomyr. The abridged transcript of the conversation is published below:

D. Yarosh : Oleg, you already know that they'll ditch us soon. Well, maybe not me because Maidan is behind me, but you they'll ditch for sure.
O.Tyagnibok: That would be difficult since "Freedom" is now in the lead.

D.Yarosh : That's true only now. They'll not let "Freedom" to gain power. That yid with punched-out brains (presumably V.Klichko) and Yatsenyuk will both push you aside. They already started pushing Julia. Did you see what they showed on "1+1" (tv channel) about Zhenya (the daughter of Julia Timoshenko Eugenia)? How would you react if they did that about your Darinka (Tyagnibok's daughter)? It's total mudslinging. And it will get worse.

O.Tyagnibok : Are you sure about Zhenya?
D.Yarosh : Yes. It's Martynenko's job, and Yatsenyuk stands behind him.

O.Tyagnibok : A Julia Vladimirovna (Tymoshenko) know about this?
D.Yarosh : I think she knows.

O.Tyagnibok : What do you suggest?
D.Yarosh : It's very simple. Our goals are the same. We both stand for Ukraine without Yids and Katsaps (Russians derogatory). You'll help me, I'll help you. Turchinov, Yatsenyuk, the "boxer", and Julia too, they all think only about how to best grab as much money as possible. And Julia also wants to avenge her imprisonment to her "benefactors". They do us more harm than good.

O.Tyagnibok : So what do you expect from me?
D.Yarosh : Oleg, I need neither power nor money. If I wanted them, I would have already had both. I want Ukraine to be for Ukrainians. Right now I need to become the chief of the SBU. Yes and to clean up the communications of our "bespeki" (security forces) with Muscovites , and they know too much about us. If you help me, we can work together.

O.Tyagnibok : I've heard that your guys wanted to make you the head of SBU, but did not think it was true. Why do you need it? Go into politics. You have a lot of support.
D.Yarosh : Politics? Why? So I can wear a beautiful jacket? I already have the power. Gone are the times when we indulged slingshotting. Now I have so many weapons that it will be enough to break all kinds of "internal occupants". If my guys have the SBU, I will bring order to the "katsapschine" (East Ukraine derogatory) and in the Crimea. Katsaps will flee Sevastopol voluntarily. I'll cause the earth to burn under their feet. Matrosnyu will start to choke some of them, maybe blow up a couple of ships. They'll flee like rats and take their henchmen with them! I'll crush all this evil. Parallelly we could start stirring ->-bleeped-<- up in Voronezh, Belgorod and Kursk regions (Russian regions with Ukrainian population). Prepare battle groups of Tatars and direct them to the Caucasus to help the Emirate. Bellamy Muzychko will help with that. He has the experience, connections, the Chechens respect him. Point is - the more problems the Muscovites have at home, the less they will be a problem for us and the less they'll bother us. In the meantime we can gather strength to stand on our own feet.

O.Tyagnibok : You have plans like Napoleon.
D.Yarosh : No, like Bandera.

O.Tyagnibok : And what if the Katsap rise in Ukraine? In Donetsk, Kharkiv, Sevastopol there's lot of them. "Regions" and Commies are still showing some teeth.
D.Yarosh : They'll swallow it and wash it down with yushkа (Ukrainian soup). I think we can quietly remove the most violent of them. The rest will calm down.

O.Tyagnibok : That's risky. Кemember Gangadze?
D.Yarosh : Kuchma was simply betrayed. And by his own people. It doesn't happen with us. If we do something, we do it well. None had yet "surfaced".

O.Tyagnibok : And what will Europe say? They won't tolerate bloodshed for long.
D.Yarosh : Oleg, let's clarify where we stand. I am willing to endure this circus about Euro-integration as long as we're not seriously talking about joining the EU. I would rather embrace a Kuban Cossack than a Euro ->-bleeped-<-. Joining Europe is death for Ukraine. Death for the state and for Christianity. We want Ukraine for Ukrainians, ruled by Ukrainians and not serving the interests of others. Including America and the EU. And there's no other way.

O.Tyagnibok : Okay, with Muscovites and Europe it is clear enough, what about the Poles? They are seriously claiming Volyn now. On the maps they're already drawing Eastern Kresy (eastern borderlands). There are strong pro-Polish sentiments there. If we can't reach an agreement with the EU, they might release the Polish dogs on us. In January, the Polish Sejm accused "Freedom" of conducting an anti-Polish policy. They called me an anti-Semite and a Russophobe. There was so much howling!

D.Yarosh : You should be proud. No one called me that yet! OUN and UPA didn't kill enough AK (Armia Krajowa)? If they raise their little heads, we'll give them a second Katyn in no time. We won't give a meter of Ukrainian land to any Muscovite nor lyahs (Poles), even more so to the Jews! There's enough streetlamps for everyone. And to you, friend, I have the following proposition. I will not dismiss the Maidan until the presidential election. I'll establishes control over the work of the most important ministries and authorities in the regions. I'll provide support for our movement. Together with the political capabilities of your "Freedom", we will be powerful. Later, if the patsyuks (rats) start selling Ukraine again, we will again raise the Maidan and take power.

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The Russian military and other local self-defense militias are at present the only check to curtail the authority of the far-right, pro-Western Kiev government over Ukraine's entire national territory. What appears superficially as the "peaceful" scenario—immediate Russian withdrawal, which is the main objective of Western governments—would at present embolden fascist forces and undoubtedly accelerate NATO militarism in the region.

Military escalation, on the other hand, would likely stimulate ultra-nationalist sentiments in both Ukraine and Russia, threatening national minorities, Jews, Tatars and others.

For progressive people and anti-imperialists, the current situation underlines the central importance of the leadership of mass movements. In our current era, with the weakness of the left, the far-right has reaped the fruits of populist uprisings. Revolutionary organizations—built on broad class solidarity not reactionary forms of nationalism— must be built.

We must emphasize that the Kiev government is not a "popular" government born of progressive protest, but a lash-up between pro-Western forces and fascists attempting to impose punishing economic policies on the Ukrainian people.

In the current era of imperialism, dominated by a small club of Western powers, they stage interventions and support regime change operations the moment a government asserts an independent orientation or a more compliant regime can be found. They care nothing about popular legitimacy or self-determination, using any opportunity to encircle and undermine those they do not physically crush.


It is folly for anti-imperialists to join in the chorus of condemnation against the Russian military so long as they are the only physical force obstructing the EU-NATO-fascist takeover of Ukraine. During this rapidly changing situation, as the U.S. capitalist media howls and misleads, we must remain vigilant and precise in our message. The poor and working people of the United States and of the world have no interest in another regime change operation or imperialist war. All anti-fascist activity in the Ukraine must be whole-heartedly supported.

Quote...

Dmytro Yarosh, Right Sector neo-Nazi commander who said "our revival begins with our Maidan," is now second-in-command of the National Defense and Security Council (covering the military, police, courts and intelligence apparatus).

Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the fascist Social National Party, which later changed its name to Svoboda. He is the new top commander of the National Defense and Security Council.

New Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk

, a powerful right-wing banker, meets with neo-con John McCain. Pictured center is neo-Nazi Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok, now one of the most powerful figures in the country.

Ihor Tenyukh, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda party, now Minister of Defense.

Oleksandr Sych, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda, is one of three Vice Prime Ministers.

Oleg Makhnitsky, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda, now Prosecutor-General (Attorney General), and has immediately set out to indict the leaders of Crimea who do not want to live under the new order in Kiev.
The U.S. and European Union countries played a key role in the overthrow of the elected government in the Ukraine headed by Victor Yanukovych and the Party of Regions. Listening to the politicians in Washington or watching the corporate media, it would be easy to believe that the coup in the Ukraine has ushered in new era of democracy for the people of that country.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The new, self-appointed government in Kiev is a coalition between right-wing and outright fascist forces, and the line between the two is often difficult to discern. Moreover, it is the fascist forces, particularly the Svoboda party and the Right Sector, who are in the ascendancy, as evidenced by the fact that they have been given key government positions in charge of the military and other core elements of the state apparatus.

...

Support for the fascists is surging in the Ukraine. In 2006, Svoboda received .36 of 1 percent in the elections; in 2012 it became the fourth largest party in the Rada (parliament) with 10.45 percent of the vote and 37 seats out of 450. In a public opinion poll taken at the beginning of February, 54 percent said they would vote for Tyahnybok for president if he ran against Yanukovych. (The poll was held three weeks before the overthrow of Yanukovych.)...

Quote...

Another case of imperialist-backed regime change – this time with neo-Nazis

The U.S. government has engineered, financed and fully supported a classic coup d'état that overthrew a corrupt but democratically elected government in Ukraine. Joining in the destabilization of the Ukrainian government were Germany, France, Britain and other NATO powers.

The U.S. State Department funds an international network of non-governmental organizations and media outlets that are used to create political opposition and conduct regime change against targeted countries from Venezuela to Bolivia to Syria to Ukraine and other countries. A principal vehicle for these U.S. operations is the National Endowment for Democracy (NED).

A recent article by Robert Parry reports: "NED, a $100 million-a-year agency created by the Reagan administration in 1983 to promote political action and psychological warfare against targeted states, lists 65 projects that it supports financially inside Ukraine, including training activists, supporting 'journalists' and promoting business groups, effectively creating a full-service structure primed and ready to destabilize a government in the name of promoting 'democracy.'"

The new coup-led government was selected by a rump session of the parliament when many elected members could not show up to vote for fear of physical attack. It is filled with fascist and semi-fascist forces, as well as powerful billionaire oligarchs. The fascist forces promote hatred toward Russians, Jews, Poles and other minorities.

During the past year these forces have been vandalizing the anti-fascist monuments and memorials that honor the Ukrainian and other Soviet military veterans who gave their lives to defeat Nazism in World War II. The new coup government immediately initiated laws to ban the Communist Party of Ukraine as many of its offices were torched around the country. The new government also banned the use of Russian, Hungarian, Romanian, Greek, Tatar and others as officially recognized minority languages.

The Maidan movement took shape in the form of street protests in November 2013 demanding that the now toppled government of Yanukovych sign onto an agreement that would "integrate" Ukraine into the economic sphere of influence of Germany and the other E.U. countries.

...

Quote...

On March 5 the European Union offered a $15 billion loan package to bailout the Ukraine. The conditions of this loan have not been made public.

Since the issue of whether Ukraine should join the EU and borrow money from the EU and International Monetary Fund or from Russia is central to the crisis in Ukraine, it's helpful to go back a few months and go over what happened at the beginning of the crisis.

On Nov. 21, the elected president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, decided not to sign an association agreement with the EU. The same day, Prime Minister Mykola Azarov rejected an IMF loan that was one of the conditions of association with the EU.

That night, a protest movement started that demanded integration with Europe. According to the New York Times, "On Friday evening (Nov. 22), about 1,000 people protested in the rain in Independence Square waving European Union flags and chanting, "Ukraine is Europe!" 

Azarov rejected the onerous conditions of the IMF loan: "raise of gas and heating tariffs for the population by approximately 40%; commitment to freeze base salary, minimal salary, general nominal salary on the current level; significant shortening of expenses for budget purposes; reducing of subsidies in energy sector; gradual cessation of the Value Added Tax exemption for agriculture and other branches and other conditions."

The IMF loan was less than a $1 billion over seven years. Ukraine's debt is approximately $4 billion.

Ukrainians pay 20 percent of their gas bill, while the government pays the rest. The VAT tax exemption, which the IMF also wanted to undo, protects Ukrainian farms and businesses from powerful global competitors. The IMF canceled a prior loan to Ukraine because the Yanukovych government had raised the minimum wage.

In other words, for an insufficient loan the IMF was demanding conditions that would greatly harm workers and small farmers, while establishing the Ukraine as a virtual free trade zone that would inevitably lead to the selling off of industries and resources to the West. It is important to note that up until this point, Yanukovych and Azarov had been in favor of the Ukraine joining the EU.

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