Good evening guys and dolls.

I was disappointed that no one who voted against androgyne as a valid and real gender identity would post their reasoning behind this belief.
I've compiled a list of beliefs and misconceptions some may hold about androgynes.
Maybe some of you could address these arguments in the hope to foster better understanding among our non-androgyne members here.
I must admit that while thinking up these statements, it dawned on me that I didn't know the answers or counter arguments to them either.
I do see androgyne as a real and valid gender identity.
Just because I don't understand something, doesn't mean it's not real.
Just because I can't see how a clock runs, doesn't mean I don't trust what it's hands say.

Some of these statements may be incendiary or painful to some, but I feel addressing them may be beneficial.


Beliefs and misconceptions held about androgynes

1) It's not a gender identity. They're just confused.

2) Androgyne is just another trend like goth and grunge. A lifestyle.

3) I really think it's just a phase. A place of safety while working out gender issues.

4) It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity.

5) They're just fence sitters. Pick a gender already!

6) It's just an excuse to dress and act like the opposite gender.

7) Androgynes are really just members of their birth sex with androgynous personalities. They're either androgynous males or androgynous females.

8] Lots of men have a feminine side and lots of women a masculine side. Androgynes mistakenly assume that just because they don't fit the stereotype of their birth gender that they must be something else.

9) You're either male or female. You can't be both. There is no in between.

10) They just don't want to be bound by gender norms. They want to behave and dress however they please. While androgyne is not a gender identity, they're challenging the binary, which is great!

11) One can be born with the gender opposite to their body, but no one is born mixed gendered. It's impossible.


Feel free to address whichever statements you want.
Thanks in advance to those who participate in this sensitive discussion.


your friend from the binary camp,
Nero

OK...I'll take a stab to at least get things started...

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 11:15:33 PM
1) It's not a gender identity. They're just confused.

It is confusing.  How can one believe their personality doesn't match their sex?  How can I be sure I'm not just a guy who likes frilly things?

It really is a matter of elimination.  If you follow the Binary Gender model, you must be either a male in a male body, a male in a female body, a female in a female body or a female in a male body...there are no other choices.  As you work through each of these, it becomes obvious that none of the options fit.

First of all, I have a Male body, thus eliminating the two female body options and leaving only:

Male in a Male Body:  There are parts of my personality that are definitely male, ranging from hobbies I enjoy to less desirable "typical male" traits like "scratching" and procrastination.  So, this could be the case except that I have a very strong female side to my personality.  My best friends are women.  I really prefer the company of women and find men to be boring, immature and generally a-holes.  (Sorry guys, but we are being honest here, and I am talking generalities.)  I also have many female traits.  Therefore I am not really "all male" and thus, this option doesn't apply.

Female in a Male Body:  While a case could be made for this as I feel more female than male, I still have those wonderful male traits (both good and not so good).  Unlike most who fit into this category, I have no desire to change the sex of my body...I do not honestly believe I would be happier if my body were female.  Based on the male traits and the lack of desire for SRS, this option doesn't apply either.

So, in a Binary Gender world, none of the options apply...where does this leave me?  My only options in this model are that I am a girly man or a manly girl (with a male body).  If you push both these to the extreme, you find a point in the middle where they meet.  I am at that point as I honestly can't tell which of these two options I am...both are right as my gender tends to float back and forth between them.

If I am both a girly man and a manly girl, I guess I could flip a coin to decide, but that doesn't seem like a good way to determine my gender.  Instead, I chose to view gender, not as a binary model, but rather as a line segment (for you math folks out there) with male on one end and female on the other and an infinite number of points in between.  Others expand this even farther to become a spectrum or even a sphere, but for simplicity sake a line segment works.  If one were to think of this line as a color chart with one end being blue and the other end being yellow, there would be an infinite number of shades of green, the same as there are an infinite number of genders.  Androgyne is simply a very wide term for all those shades of green.


Well, there is an answer to shoot holes in.  Some others in the Androgyne world will be able to explain in psychiatric and academic terms, but this is me and that's how I feel.   

I will try to pick up another one later.

.......Laurry

Then I'll take #2. By the way Nero; reading those points out loud makes me sound like my ex! o.O!

Quote2) Androgyne is just another trend like goth and grunge. A lifestyle.

Warning: this is rather long and does involve my own views. Additionally, it's actually a quote from my final attempt to explain Androgyny to my ex.

Androgyny as a subculture
There has been a recent development of Androgyny as a subculture. Within this it is believed that one becomes Androgyne rather than is. The subculture handles a political agenda to de-construct gender, and most individuals have an androgynous appearance. Additionally, they refer to the label of Androgyny to introduce another 'box', and rather than de-construct gender only creates more gender divisions. Additionally, 'Androgyne' is used as a political term, and as a concept (that fails its purpose). However, the majority of Androgynes who see this as their Gender Identity seem unable to relate to many aspects of the Androgyne subculture, and feel no desire to carry the political agenda. In fact; most are unaware such an agenda existed. A more popular description of Androgyny is in fashion, however this portrayal is described as Androgynous fashion.

Androgyny as a Gender Identity (Disorder)
The simplest definition of Androgyny is: a condition of which the carrier does not fit into the typical female and male gender roles of their society. They feel either as in between the dominant genders, both, neither, or a complete different gender. In some cases the GID is accompanied by gender dysphoria. These Androgynes are often described as 'neutrois' or n0ll (null)-gender. In response to the question "Why are you binding/removing your breasts" the common answer is: "Because they're not supposed to be there" as a result of  the body dysmorphia element  neutrosis/n0ll-gender condition has.

The difference between Androgyny as a GI(D) and Subculture
Within the Transgender support community the 'Androgyne' label serves as a support mechanism to enable recognition. It is much alike asking someone if they would like a fruit, and following the question up with whether they'd prefer an apple, pear, or banana with the simple purpose to distinct one from the other. In addition, Androgynes (as many others in support groups) do not, or hardly socialise with other Androgynes outside of their support group, they are in fact often 'invisible' in society. In this fashion: ->-bleeped-<-(Transsexual)-Club would be a subculture, and ->-bleeped-<--Support not. In this form if Androgyny would be considered a subculture than so would be a cancer-support group. While Androgyny may (in some cases such as those of neutrois/n0ll-gender) be depicted as a lifestyle, it would indicate that there is a choice, much alike saying that Homosexuality is an available lifestyle, and that to be Homosexual is a choice while adopting the label is only a means of self-recognition and self-acceptance. Another example would be Anorexia (a recognised disorder): living with anorexia is a way of life; a lifestyle, but the recent popular manifestation of pro-anorexia groups are inclined to be presented as a subculture since they dismiss the fact that this is a disease and a disorder and choose to become anorexic.

*prods the next person to answer #3*

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 11:15:33 PM
3) I really think it's just a phase. A place of safety while working out gender issues.

There are some TSs who use it as such, but there are also people (and we have a few of them on Susans) who transitioned full-time and then realised they weren't the other binary gender either.

I used to identify as m2f so transitioned and visually passed well, the only issue I had was voice and that's fixable in time.  Didn't lose a single friend or family member.  So I didn't decide I wasn't m2f because of any transitional related issues.  I just realised the other binary gender wasn't right either...  Closer, but not right.  For me, female was a place of safety - transition proved I was comfortable with being out as not cisgendered.  Once I'd made that step (and my GID was significantly reduced) I could more easily explore exactly what I am.

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4) It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity.

This is very connected to what no_id said in reply to point 2.

I think the easiest retort to that is "for me it's not, I don't identify as male or female".  Not much anybody can say to that (other than tell me I'm crazy I guess) :p

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 11:15:33 PM
5) They're just fence sitters. Pick a gender already!

There's some of that, certainly. But then again, which gender? If neither one fits -- and they truly don't -- why would I have to choose one? Just because someone says so?

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 11:15:33 PM
6) It's just an excuse to dress and act like the opposite gender.

I've only tried dressing a couple of times, with an interval of about three decades. It didn't feel necessary the first time, and the second time confirmed that the first one wasn't just a non-cross-dressing phase. 

I act like me. Sure, there are some female traits in my behaviour, just as there are some male traits. They are still all mine, and not simply constructs that make it possible to live in this society.

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 11:15:33 PM
7) Androgynes are really just members of their birth sex with androgynous personalities. They're either androgynous males or androgynous females.

Now this is a more interesting one. Anatomy-wise I'd prefer to be female, although my GID is mild enough that I do not have an absolute need to seek medical treatment, at least for now. So yes, it's possible to consider me an androgynous female in a male body. On the other hand, I also accept that the male bits I've got do have their uses, and there are times I wouldn't like to give them up.

I'd also like to point out that the way this one was written implies that gender identity is different from personality. I'm not sure that's an entirely correct assumption. Gender is a social construct, and gender identity in the social sense is very much a part of personality. In this vein, dismissing an androgyne identity as 'personality' comes very close to saying that a non-op TG is a member of their birth sex with a personality of the opposite one. Both of them are changing their gender expression; why is one doing it because of their personality and the other one in order to have it congruent with their gender identity?

  Nfr

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 11:15:33 PM

8] Lots of men have a feminine side and lots of women a masculine side. Androgynes mistakenly assume that just because they don't fit the stereotype of their birth gender that they must be something else.

Couldn't the same be said of a Transsexual by someone who is ignorant?

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 17, 2007, 05:51:56 AM

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 11:15:33 PM

8] Lots of men have a feminine side and lots of women a masculine side. Androgynes mistakenly assume that just because they don't fit the stereotype of their birth gender that they must be something else.

Couldn't the same be said of a Transsexual by someone who is ignorant?

I agree pica it could be.

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 11:15:33 PM
9) You're either male or female. You can't be both. There is no in between.

The same could be said about your sex...except we all know that there are some that are born with both.  Is it such a large leap to think that if your body can be intersexed then so can your brain/personality? 

Quote
10) They just don't want to be bound by gender norms. They want to behave and dress however they please. While androgyne is not a gender identity, they're challenging the binary, which is great!

OK, you got me.  I just love the "I'm gonna kick your a$$" looks I get from the rednecks at the local Wally-world because I show up "dressed however I please"...that's really my idea of fun on a Saturday night...sheesh.  Trust me, my life would be much simpler if I were TS, gay or even straight, but I am not.

It is true that not being bound to one gender extreme allows greater flexibility in clothing choices, makeup or no makeup, sewing bees or monster truck rallies, but with every choice comes consequence.  Unless one chooses to present completely unisex (and most of us can't pull that off) there will probably be some measure of gender mixing.  But society doesn't really care for ambiguous gender signals...it makes people uncomfortable because they can't put you in a box, and when people get uncomfortable, bad things can and do sometimes happen.

This comment is a perfect example of the confusion between looking androgynous and having an androgenic gender identity.  There are a lot of people who think that if you look androgynous, you must be an androgyne, and if you are an androgyne, you must look androgynous...this is simply not true.  A lot of us struggle (especially here at Susan's) to make our outside look like our inside, but we aren't all there yet.  The gender a person presents does not necessarily reflect the gender they really are inside.  Don't confuse the teenager who thinks it is cool to dress unisex with the middle-aged businessman in a suit and tie who only presents as male because they are worried they may not have a job if they were to dress the way they wanted to.  Neither may be reflecting their true gender...the teenager may only dress that way to rebel against society (and attract girls) while the businessperson dresses their way in order to maintain financial stability.

Quote
11) One can be born with the gender opposite to their body, but no one is born mixed gendered. It's impossible.

See comment on item #9 above.  Besides, a lot of people believe that it is impossible to have a gender identity that doesn't match your body...that transsexuals are only "confused".  Either they are right and a TS person is really just mentally distrubed, or it really is possible that a person's gender does not have to match their body.  If you agree that it is possible for your gender and your sex to not match, then it really become a matter of how many genders are there.  Society says there are two, male and female, however, if you really don't identify with either (or identify with both) you are pretty much screwed.  When the facts don't fit the model, there are only two options...get rid of the facts or change the model.  The Nazis tried the first option...I prefer the second.

---

OK, that is a first stab through all of them, but there are many who could add to these.  So, please answer any one you like (or several) now that you are not obligated through peer pressure to take the next one on the list.

If you have heard other comments similar to these, I would love to hear them and your response.

.....Laurry     

Quote1) It's not a gender identity. They're just confused.

I've experienced intense levels of GID similar to any TS. I could identify as non-op/non-hrt TS, but I've read too many threads on this board that say it doesn't exist. I believe every ts, tg or cd has felt confusion while trying to figure who they really are.

Quote2) Androgyne is just another trend like goth and grunge. A lifestyle.

I live in a rural area, more often than not am wearing jeans and a t shirt, add a flannel shirt when it's colder. Occasionally a skirt of the sort that you see women wear at a contradance. Long hair tied back in a pony tail. Not exactly a hip fashion trend 

Lifestyle, use of that word for either sexual orientation or gender identity always bothers me. I wake up in the AM, drink some coffee with my partner, check my email, and then get to work. Then some more time on the net, and maybe a DVD. Some lifestyle! 

Quote3) I really think it's just a phase. A place of safety while working out gender issues.

I've sometimes wondered this myself. Is it a holding pattern that I'm stuck in until I accept the real truth of being TS? I could also say that TS is a phase though too, since I went through that phase before identifying as androgyne.

Quote4) It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity.

I first thought androgyny was a gender expression before coming to the understanding that it also described a psychological or spiritual awareness of self. Some detractors of TS say the same thing, saying it's expression, not identity. See above regarding my frumpy flamboyant flannel androgynous gender expression. 

Quote5) They're just fence sitters. Pick a gender already!

I have picked. I'm neither, none of the above, or other gender.

Quote6) It's just an excuse to dress and act like the opposite gender.

Again, see above regarding my fashion sense LOL. Seriously though, I also wondered at some point if I was a crossdresser, and that didn't fit at all. I could care less about spending hours on makeup, fancy clothing and I definitely don't do high heels. No offense meant to any CDs, some of them look absolutely fabulous 

Quote7) Androgynes are really just members of their birth sex with androgynous personalities. They're either androgynous males or androgynous females.

Again, I've felt extreme discomfort regarding having a male body, so it isn't so simple. I suppose one could say I'm female identified androgyne with male body, but it goes way beyond personality.

Quote8] Lots of men have a feminine side and lots of women a masculine side. Androgynes mistakenly assume that just because they don't fit the stereotype of their birth gender that they must be something else.

Long before transitioning as TS, I'd realized that my feminine side was much stronger than my masculine side, has been ever since I was a child. Believe me, I considered whether I could simply be happy as a male who acknowledged and expressed my feminine side. It would've been a hell of a lot easier, but that wasn't who I am.

Quote9) You're either male or female. You can't be both. There is no in between.

I'm not both, I'm neither. That's just me, I know there are some androgynes here whose feeling of androgyny encompasses both male and female.

Quote10) They just don't want to be bound by gender norms. They want to behave and dress however they please. While androgyne is not a gender identity, they're challenging the binary, which is great!

It's true, I don't wish to be bound by gender binary norms. While who I am has been greatly informed by expanding my political awareness, and extensive reading of gender and queer studies, I am not doing this just to get in people's faces and challenge the binary, although that's certainly a useful side effect  . I am who I am, from the deepest places inside my soul. If there was an easier way than being neither, or androgyne, I would've chosen it if possible. Life on the outside hasn't been easy. 

Quote11) One can be born with the gender opposite to their body, but no one is born mixed gendered. It's impossible.

Detractors of TS say the same thing regarding TS. You know the way you feel inside, and what you've had to do to be yourself. We feel who we are just as intensely.

Thanks Nero, for another thought provoking set of questions!

Zythyra

Hi,

   I have nothing to add.  I feel that you all have stated the facts really well.

Thank you, all of you.

Quote from: Rebis on August 17, 2007, 03:09:27 PM
Hi,

   I have nothing to add.  I feel that you all have stated the facts really well.

Thank you, all of you.

It's called teamwork Reeb.
... And, apparently; we do make a splendid team all together.

Now I wonder if anyone would like to respond to this with further questions? 

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 11:15:33 PM


3) I really think it's just a phase. A place of safety while working out gender issues.

I would not call my androgyny years as a "phase" but it was without question a place of safety while working out my gender issues between high school and before transition.  For me it was a good place to hide. 

I would argue it is a valid gender identity, but it can also be a form of gender expression.

I have seen and met people who had both.

I also would not call neutrios a "lifestyle choice" or eunuchs.  If anything it is just something where gender identity along M/F lines does not exist.  I have read stuff from eunuchs, their identity problems are very similar to transsexuals who go towards the other gender.  I also have run into male and female neutrios who are very similiar.  Its really weird, but I think the androgynes where there are  gender identity issues are not taken seriously.  Its a shadow culture, that is very sad and has lead to several deaths. 

These are not people who are trying to f&^k the binary either, they just are very different. 
 

But that is just one girls opinion. 

Quote from: Amy T. on August 19, 2007, 03:17:16 AM
I also would not call neutrios a "lifestyle choice".

Quote
I have read stuff from eunuchs, their identity problems are very similar to transsexuals who go towards the other gender.

QuoteIts really weird, but I think the androgynes where there are  gender identity issues are not taken seriously.  Its a shadow culture, that is very sad and has lead to several deaths.   

I definitely agree that neutrois is not a lifestyle choice as much as homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice. However, it is very possible that it would be perceived as such; that neutrois are individuals with a political agenda to break down binaries; that their lack of appearing male or female is a political standpoint, and therefore it wouldn't surprise me if they encountered even less tollerance than TS'.

Additionally, I believe that resembling the dysphoria neutrois suffer from to that of TS is quite adequate. However, the most significant difference is that the dysphoria of a neutrois is currently 'off the map', and to relate that to your notion on it being a shadow culture wherin issues are not taken seriously and that the lack of possible treatment is accompanied by quite some suicide rates -- it is inevitable to state that there is a serious problem. Currently, the prospect of this issue to be solved seems to be a matter of quite some years, and action seems desperately necessary.

How about the one from my housemate a couple weeks ago: You just want to be different.  Also, she doesn't understand the difference between just being a straight/bi girl and being a fem gay/bi boy or androgyne.

She still calls me "chica" and "girly" and stuff.  I generally glare and her and we have a lighthearted spat.  I'll sigh and she'll roll her eyes at me.

Other comments brought up by her and other housemates in the past few months:

• You just can't deal with being a lesbian
  I've been out for the past six years! That's not the issue.  Anyway, I think I'm more attracted to boys...


• I'll refer to you as a boy when you start going by "Travis", cut your hair and act like a man.
  At least my other housemate, who adores long-haired men took offense at the second suggestion ^_^.  I guess she also wants me to stop wearing women's clothes altogether (I've referred to myself as a "crossdresser" to her, she's just like "You're not a crossdresser, you're a girl!")


• You're a girl, you have a vajayjay!
  Yes, a 20yo did say "vajayjay" LOL.  To which I usually reply that genitalia is irrelevant to gender identity.


• God made you a girl, therefore you're a girl.
  God made me as an infant (or embryo) too!  People are made to grow and develop and change.  Isn't it quite possible that I was made to transition.  God made the mental part of me too.


• You don't know who you are, you're just confused!
  Sure I do, I'm me!  Words are a poor reflection of that.  Y'all are the ones confused by me, I'm not confused.

Now all of these can refer to any trans people, actually, but I'm androgynous/bigendered so it makes it more difficult than simply saying I'm a boy and taking testosterone and stuff.  They know many of my friends and exes have transitioned so I use them as examples.  If they can be opposite, why can't I be both?

(For the record, I'm good friends with my housemate who said most of these things to me so "screw 'em" doesn't work.)