Since I am both androgynous and a MTF pre-op, I wasn't sure if I should put this in the Androgynous or the Trans section.  Seeing as to how not all drogs (a personal pet name I use for myself as an androgynous person) go through a transition, I guess it makes more sense to put it here.

We all do what we do for the reasons we do them.  Sounds silly and profound at the same time to me, but that is the way these "wisdom" things work.

What I am about to say is MY reality.  I cannot ask that anyone accept it.  Again, we all have our reasons for doing what we do and I am not trying to change anyone's mind.  Perhaps what I say may help someone else is up in the air about this "type of thing" themselves?  I do not mean to offend.

For me, even though I am going through the MTF transition, I can never accept myself as a woman.  Feminine, absolutely, but NEVER female.  For me, in order to completey be a "woman" I would have to have the ability to concieve and birth children, menstrate, and provide milk.  Seeing as to how there is no (current) procedure to allow me to do these things, I myself cannot accept the idea that I will ever be a WOMAN.  I respect women too much to steal their thunder like that.  They earn the right to be called women because everything they have to go through...the cramps, the pregnancy, the labor, the childbirth, the breastfeeding...those are crucial aspects of being a woman and to that, my hats are off to you biological ladies.  I never got to know my mom too well so have an EXTREME respect for mothers because of it.  A lot of people take for granted what being a mom trully means.

So, I have always viewed myself as androgynous but I prefer to appear feminine.  I hate the man-junk and like the idea of not having to deal with it anymore.  To me "MTF" is merely the name of the procedure, nothing more, and does not really change the fact that I am a drog.  I AM NOT a woman, and never will claim to be.  If I ever have before, I renounce it now as it was done in ignorance.

Ummm, it sounds like your dealing with internalized cissexism.

Contrary to popular belief, not all cis women get periods and/or have babies...and that doesn't make them any less female. So why should that make us any less female just because we can't?

Some cis women don't even have a uterus or ovaries.

I don't know, hon. I don't think being a woman is a right you have to earn by what you do. More a state of mind to adopt by being who you are. Nothing really more than that.

I understand why you feel that way. I just think quite a lot of women who don't have kids, for whatever reason, might take issue with it. Not to mention that there are guys who give birth. They're still guys. The act doesn't make them female. It's just parts, arranged in a certain way to accommodate a biological function. Parts don't maketh the person. Humans are synergistic - greater than the sum of their parts.

Just my view.

Hi Ev,
    Since you are you and those thoughts are yours I won't turn this thread around and make it about me and try to change your thought processes because you are entitled to be who you are and how you perceive yourself to be. When I came back to Susan's I initially posted under the designation MtF but was experiencing a similar series of self revelation as you have and just say "Transdrogynous," so I share your views.

Quote from: Ev on March 20, 2014, 06:18:11 AM
For me, even though I am going through the MTF transition, I can never accept myself as a woman.  Feminine, absolutely, but NEVER female.  For me, in order to completey be a "woman" I would have to have the ability to concieve and birth children, menstrate, and provide milk.  Seeing as to how there is no (current) procedure to allow me to do these things, I myself cannot accept the idea that I will ever be a WOMAN.  I respect women too much to steal their thunder like that.  They earn the right to be called women because everything they have to go through...the cramps, the pregnancy, the labor, the childbirth, the breastfeeding...those are crucial aspects of being a woman and to that, my hats are off to you biological ladies.  I never got to know my mom too well so have an EXTREME respect for mothers because of it.  A lot of people take for granted what being a mom trully means.

This is incredibly invalidating to those cis women who cannot conceive or do not menstruate.. You want to breast feed? That can be arranged, although it's not something all cis women can do either.

Being a woman is more than just being a breeder, which you seem to imply is be all and end all of being a woman. And guess what? You don't need to have birthed a child to be it's mother.. When my GF died in May last year, her daughters adopted me - I have happily taken on the role as their mother, including being Mother of the Bride at the eldest's wedding last July. I love my daughters and they love me.

I kind of understand what you mean here. But you also have to remember theres also the spirit or condition that you feel as a women and being female. Being a women is behind motherhood too. I think of motherhood as a bonus to the experience of being a women, a gift. Not all women can get that but doesnt mean their experience as a women is any less.

Ev obviously isn't attacking cis women or any MtF trans women either, it's too bad people have to feel so vulnerable that she can't have her own opinion free from criticism, her opinions aren't aimed at anyone here!

Thank you all for your responses.  I appreciate your feedback.   

I have read over it all, have given it some thought, and now I would like to address each one of you.  It has come to my attention that more people have added since I started this post, and I will look over these new responses after I post this and address them.

Shantel: Transdrogynous sounds good to me.  I like it.  I'm going to "steal" this one from you and add it to my personal favorites if you don't mind.   

Sephiriah: I understand that some women don't have kids.  The thing is, I would actually have liked to.  My lifemate and consort is a "masculine female" and I have said we're like seahorses: the "male" in this relationship carried the babies.  She would have rather that I carried the kids and I feel the same way.  I agree with you, it is a state of mind: however, based on my grasp of reality, since I cannot have kids (even if I chose not to) I can't wrap my head around the idea of me being a woman.  My worker today asked me if I could have babies, would I have identified as a woman: I told her yes.  That says something, BUT...I don't base my life on "what-ifs."  I can dream as a way to fantasize and have some fun role-playing, but I (myself) can't live on "what-ifs."  I live on what IS.

Skyla: I don't view myself as having cisexualism at all.  I don't even hate/dislike other MTFs who were biologically male calling themselves woman.  That is THEIR right to do so and I am not going to call them "confused" or wrong because I myself refuse to be identified personally as a woman.  (Legally I am going to have to to my understanding. I get that.)  This becomes a matter of semantics/difference of opinion...a battle of lingo and termonology, which can go on indefinatley...and the fact that I see the world through different eyes as everyone else.  I myself am not a big fan of all this termonology stuff but understand it is required to communicate with people, and that is part of the reason I am here: to learn.  I am a writer so words are tools and I like to have a lot of them.  I LOVE being what we call androgynous, and if I was born a biological female I would have gladly still been an androgynous but a biolological woman.  I have a "religious" background that only acknowledges "what is" as the truth: and since I was born a biological male, the "what is" is that I was never born a woman, can never have kids even if I chose not to (even though I would have liked to) and thus...in my own personal subjective universe, and my subjective universe alone...I can never call myself a woman.  No shame for me there.  I am somewhat ego-centered this way, but understand that solipsism is a "sin" and refuse to do it if I can help it.  I can't convince anyone to see it my way.

If all you MTF ladies out there want me to address you as women/ladies, I shall GLADLY do so.  It doesn't impact/change my world that I have constructed for myself to do so, and it also shows YOU that I acknowledge YOUR choices.  If you want to call me lady, man, sir, person, ma'm, it, or whatever else, I will acknowledge this is what you choose and not correct you for not calling me a drog.  Personally, I find the label "it" charming and don't find it vulgar at all in reference to me.  I wouldn't call someone else "it" unless they liked it.

I'm a biology grad student going into stem cell research.  I have no doubt that these options will be available for trans people within a few decades.  After all, less than the average human lifespan ago GRS and HRT didn't exist.

But personally, I'm not waiting around for any of that to accept myself as female.  And even if I did, biologically speaking I already have a female brain, female hormone levels, female soft tissues, and a functioning vagina. 

Quote from: Shantel on March 20, 2014, 06:20:57 PM
Ev obviously isn't attacking cis women or any MtF trans women either, it's too bad people have to feel so vulnerable that she can't have her own opinion free from criticism, her opinions aren't aimed at anyone here!

I have to agree Shantel! I didn't take it as an attack either. Everyone has their own set of beliefs and we all make our own reality in life. Obviously if someone is getting hurt, that is a different story!

To me, Ev, it seems you are simply stating your own beliefs that you have built for your own life (and nobody else's) which is not only okay, but shows that you know exactly what you want in order to be happy... free from judgement of a gender-binary based society. It is a wonderful trait to listen to yourself so deeply, and I get the feeling that we all share that little tidbit in common

Quote from: Ev on March 20, 2014, 06:18:11 AM
They earn the right to be called women because everything they have to go through...the cramps, the pregnancy, the labor, the childbirth, the breastfeeding...those are crucial aspects of being a woman and to that, my hats are off to you biological ladies.

While I can understand what you're talking about and can accept that it is your opinion I have to disagree. I'd gladly "go though" any and all of those things if I had the chance to be completely female.

That said I understand that not being able to give birth makes you feel incomplete. That's exactly what biological females lacking that feature have to deal with. But that shouldn't make you less female or less of a woman.

My mom had her uterus removed when she was very young. So she didn't menstruate and couldn't have her own children nor breastfeed but she's still a woman.

I'm just curious, Ev.  Do you think the same is true for males?  As in, for a man to be "completely a man" does he need to perform his, erh, biological functions?  Or is that just a standard for women?

Quote from: Inanna on March 21, 2014, 03:59:53 PM
I'm just curious, Ev.  Do you think the same is true for males?  As in, for a man to be "completely a man" does he need to perform his, erh, biological functions?  Or is that just a standard for women?

I hope not.. Because if men are held to that standard, I'm not one of them either..

What to do, not a woman, not a man..

Ianna:

Transgender, androgynous, and all other forms of gender identity are up to the individual to decide for themselves.  (Correct me if I am wrong.)  As long as we remember this for ourselves and not slip into solipsism...the way of thinking that says our own personal reality is the only reality/should be the only reality...nothing I say about myself should be a problem for you, and nothing you say for yourself should bother me.

Touching on my sexuality, which I will use to make a point: I am what I call a sex-all.  Pansexual?  Don't know.  (Another day, another thread.)  If they're cute, they're cute.  Back when I was "pretending" to be a male-male, it was a known fact I was bi.  But, everyone was convinced I was either on the "bi now, gay later plan" or that I was confused, a whore, couldn't make up my mind, ya da da da.  When I asked them why they would think that, their answers included (but was not restricted to) things like: "Well, I am gay/lesbian.  But at first I thought I was bi because I also slept with women/men.  Because I thought I had to.  I slept with everything I could because I never satisfied because I was searching for myself.  So I thought that is what is going on with you.  It must be what is going on with you."  THAT is solipsism: assuming that just because they went through that, means that is what I am going through. 

I cannot say how it is for everybody else, but I can tell you how it would be for me.  In my life philosophy, what happens in the physical "realm" is the truth and not so much what goes on in our heads.  For example, I could say "I am a dog!" until I turn blue in the face, but it won't change the fact I am a human being.  (Existentialism covers this in its own way.)  If someone else wants to believe that they're a dog to fit some life goal or purpose, that's fine by me as long as they don't try and "make me" a dog and maybe go as far as pushing to pass legislation for it.  I have nothing against dogs but chasing cars, licking my own crotch, and sniffing other's backsides is not something I do often.  When sober.  You know what?  Forget it.  I do these things at least once a week.  But I walk upright most of the time and don't have a full body of carpet-like hair, as long as I shave.

Back on track, and (hopefully) answering your question: assuming I was the same overall personality type that I am now, if I was to be "in another life" born a woman going FTM for whatever reason, I would still identify as androgynous and/or trans.  I won't speak for anyone else.

To me, I could NEVER identify as a Male if I was born Female, or Female if I was born Male because I would be something else now.  My body has undergone a form of modification, allowing me to create an aesthetic...a mode of expression...for myself.  (Science is beautiful sometimes.)  To me, MTF/FTM surgeries are alongside the same lines as tattooing or body piercings.  It won't change my gender identity, but it will change my gender expression.

I would be an androgynous person and/or a transsexual who expresses male (FTM) or a transsexual who expresses female (MTF.)  If (being a MTF drog) my friends wanted to call me "girl" to help them identify me and not bake their poor little binary-gender brains, I say let them.  I have no problem with it.  In fact, many of the girls I do hang out with call me girl.  I value my time/relationship with them too much to try and get in a p***ing contest over vocabulary or to mold them in my image. 

I am, however, not going to (within my personal scope of values) lie to myself behind closed doors and say I am anything other than drog or trans, no matter how I look on the skin.  I was not BORN with ovaries (functional or not), a cervix, and milk glands and therefore cannot, within my personal philosophy, call myself female.

Quote from: Ev on March 21, 2014, 05:40:17 PM
Ianna:

Transgender, androgynous, and all other forms of gender identity are up to the individual to decide for themselves.  (Correct me if I am wrong.)  As long as we remember this for ourselves and not slip into solipsism...the way of thinking that says our own personal reality is the only reality/should be the only reality...nothing I say about myself should be a problem for you, and nothing you say for yourself should bother me.

Touching on my sexuality, which I will use to make a point: I am what I call a sex-all.  Pansexual?  Don't know.  (Another day, another thread.)  If they're cute, they're cute.  Back when I was "pretending" to be a male-male, it was a known fact I was bi.  But, everyone was convinced I was either on the "bi now, gay later plan" or that I was confused, a whore, couldn't make up my mind, ya da da da.  When I asked them why they would think that, their answers included (but was not restricted to) things like: "Well, I am gay/lesbian.  But at first I thought I was bi because I also slept with women/men.  Because I thought I had to.  I slept with everything I could because I never satisfied because I was searching for myself.  So I thought that is what is going on with you.  It must be what is going on with you."  THAT is solipsism: assuming that just because they went through that, means that is what I am going through. 

I cannot say how it is for everybody else, but I can tell you how it would be for me.  In my life philosophy, what happens in the physical "realm" is the truth and not so much what goes on in our heads.  For example, I could say "I am a dog!" until I turn blue in the face, but it won't change the fact I am a human being.  (Existentialism covers this in its own way.)  If someone else wants to believe that they're a dog to fit some life goal or purpose, that's fine by me as long as they don't try and "make me" a dog and maybe go as far as pushing to pass legislation for it.  I have nothing against dogs but chasing cars, licking my own crotch, and sniffing other's backsides is not something I do often.  When sober.  You know what?  Forget it.  I do these things at least once a week.  But I walk upright most of the time and don't have a full body of carpet-like hair, as long as I shave.

Back on track, and (hopefully) answering your question: assuming I was the same overall personality type that I am now, if I was to be "in another life" born a woman going FTM for whatever reason, I would still identify as androgynous and/or trans.  I won't speak for anyone else.

To me, I could NEVER identify as a Male if I was born Female, or Female if I was born Male because I would be something else now.  My body has undergone a form of modification, allowing me to create an aesthetic...a mode of expression...for myself.  (Science is beautiful sometimes.)  To me, MTF/FTM surgeries are alongside the same lines as tattooing or body piercings.  It won't change my gender identity, but it will change my gender expression.

I would be an androgynous person and/or a transsexual who expresses male (FTM) or a transsexual who expresses female (MTF.)  If (being a MTF drog) my friends wanted to call me "girl" to help them identify me and not bake their poor little binary-gender brains, I say let them.  I have no problem with it.  In fact, many of the girls I do hang out with call me girl.  I value my time/relationship with them too much to try and get in a p***ing contest over vocabulary or to mold them in my image. 

I am, however, not going to (within my personal scope of values) lie to myself behind closed doors and say I am anything other than drog or trans, no matter how I look on the skin.  I was not BORN with ovaries (functional or not), a cervix, and milk glands and therefore cannot, within my personal philosophy, call myself female.

Hate to split hairs, but you were born with milk ducts.. They just require estrogen to develop..

Kelly:

True.  I'll admit when I am wrong.  I do remember lactating from the breasts several times in my teens, now that memory has been triggered.  However, I don't think they produce the nutrients required by an infant to survive off of.  Correct me if I am wrong on this point.  Excluding mutations, which is another point entirely.  (Like certain hermaphrodites, possibly.)

However, being born with ovaries (functional or otherwise) are female-exclusive, (again) not taking into account certain mutations.

Quote from: Ev on March 21, 2014, 05:40:17 PM
I was not BORN with ovaries (functional or not), a cervix, and milk glands and therefore cannot, within my personal philosophy, call myself female.

Now this is more than biological determinism... this is birth determinism. 

In other words, regardless of future medical advancements that allows an MTF to be biologically female, or if a cis woman lost her ovaries/uterus, it only matters what you were born with.  That determines your identity until your grave.

Birth determinism is an unsettling concept that has held back oppressed groups for centuries.  It ignores the present and future, with only a single event in the past having any importance.

You have every right to apply it to yourself though.

Just read in a med forum that transgender MTFs can breastfeed.  Interesting.  See?  You learn something every day.  Nice. 

However, I still (respectfully) see this is more along the lines of body modifications.  The natural womb is the selling point for me.  My wife couldn't breastfeed for one of our kids because she wouldn't lactate witout piercing the breasts, but she could have kids.

And even if you could add a working womb, it again is a body mod in my (MY) opinion.

Which brings us to this:

Quote from: Inanna on March 21, 2014, 06:43:36 PM
Now this is more than biological determinism... this is birth determinism. 

In other words, regardless of future medical advancements that allows an MTF to be fully biologically female, or if a cis woman lost her ovaries/uterus, it only matters what you were born with.  That determines your identity until your grave.

Birth determinism is an unsettling concept that has held back oppressed groups for centuries.  It ignores the present and future, with only a single event in the past having any importance.

You have every right to apply it to yourself though.

Birth determinism?  Noted.  (New term for me.)

That right I do have, and that right I will express.

I don't see birth determinism (if I am understanding it correctly) within itself as a bad thing. I guess it is how it has been used that is the problem for many, and thus carries with it a stigma.

I really think...making an educated assumption here...that if particular/prominent members/groups in society didn't discriminate against the trans community...or didn't exist at all...someone who was a MTF could openly say with a smile on their face that they were born male and chose to express as female.  Perfect world, I guess.  A lot of what I see is (sadly) people seeking too much acceptance from others...especially acceptance from these abusive and bigoted groups...and not enough acceptance from themselves.  Love to those who love back: waste no time on ingrates!  If they could accept themselves and focus on the ones who do support them instead of trying to "convert" others, one (I) could assume that perhaps something like "birth determnism" wouldn't even phase them?  Again, and with all respects, an assumption.

I also think that if enough MTFs stood up and said: "I was born male, chose to express female.  What of it?" and stopped hiding...intensifying the stigma for others as hiding = secret = bad to the general populace...something like birth determism would be laughed off.  The best way to teach "tolerance" is through desensitization, and the only way to desensitize the public is too expose them too it in large doses over time.  Birth determism?  Okay, what about it?  I made a choice.  Isn't that awesome?

If someone was well-adjusted and came from a loving home and supportive social circle, they may also with no shame say they were a male choosing to express female.  They may have to put down "female" for bathroom purposes, but little else.  I'm sure they're out there.  The thing is, the news and humans in general only like to talk about the failures and don't look to the success stories for groups like this.  To my understanding, there are successful transgenders in Hollywood.  Take Lana and Andrew Wachowski, for example.  Who mentions them?  Nah...we have to talk about that poor little MTF who committed suicide on an overdose.  (Another topic.)

I mean, why do we put "male" and "female" on bathroom signs anyways?  How about we just do (P) and (V), for Penis and Vagina rooms?  That would be great. 

I myself had a pretty crappy childhood by many standards, but I am coming out loud and proud about this stuff.  I refuse to be one of those "tragic" statistics where I go into a nervous breakdown because a part of me is ashamed/denies I EVER was male.  I was never ashamed to be express male because I did what I had to do to survive.  I wasn't abused because I was a MTF "waiting to happen."  I was abused because I cared about the wrong people.

Now, I am not saying going out in public and saying: "Hi, I'm really a bio male expressing as a trans-female!  Isn't that neeeeeat?"  That would be one of those: "Okay.  But I need to know this WHY?" things.  But if you asked me if I was a man/woman I would ask why you wanted to know.  If I liked your reason, I would tell you without shame.

The power is mine.  The responsabilty for my MTF transition is mine.  I can't blame the world for squat, nor does the world owe me a lick.  I don't need to be recognized as a man or woman by others to make something of myself.  The MTF thing for me is more about sexual options and performance than it is gender identity.

That's me, feeling all heroic and sentimental.  I don't do it often, as it does not become me.

I absolutely respect your reasons, and human diversity causes all of us to have different motivations for things.  Mtfs are just as diverse as women as a whole.

It's not strictly about expressing feminine for me; it's about feeling comfortable in my physical form.  Of course, I love expressing feminine but that's not the reason I transitioned.