Quote from: regina on August 16, 2007, 10:36:35 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 09:28:37 PM

Thing is, transmen really have no choice in the matter. It's keep what's between your legs or spend 60,000 - 100,000 on 10 stage surgeries that don't produce anything even approaching male genitalia (which most likely wouldn't pass muster in a strip search anyhow).

While I can appreciate the hard place so many transmen find themselves in with regard to the cost, complexity and mixed results of ftm genital surgery (although, again, I think metoidioplasties are a very good alternative) the reality is that a transman in a women's facility isn't under the same level of danger that a transwoman is in a men's facility. I'm not saying it wouldn't completely suck to be a transman in that situation, but try to imagine being a transwoman surrounded by some pretty violent, very sexually aggressive characters. Yes, there are many people in that exact situation within the prison system and most of them live through a system of prison yard protection and often tend to be at the center of a lot of violence between inmates. Do you know of situations where transmen are either in a woman's facility or if there is a case of a transman being in a men's facility? (it'd be VERY shocked if that happened) Never heard of such a thing, but I'd be interested to know.

Gina M.

*sigh*
First off, I made a statement about the difficulty of transmen to ever be viewed legally as men in these types of situations. Nowhere did I discuss danger levels or anything of the sort. You posted something amounting to 'why surgery is the way to go'. I simply stated that transmen don't really have such an option.

This is the second time you have turned a benign statement of mine into a pity party for transwomen.
Why do some transwomen feel the need to shout from the rooftops how hard they have it?
Why do they feel the need to state what a bowl of cherries they think a transman's life is?
Do they harbour some kind of resentment towards transmen?

Secondly, I know all about TG women in prison. I've heard plenty of stories and descriptions from friends on the inside.
So don't tell me to 'imagine' anything. To be honest, the assumption that I don't know or care about violence on transwomen is insulting. I never ever said anything of the kind. My friend's TS girlfriend was found in a dumpster with her face smashed in. His pain was my pain. Stop with the insinuations that I care nothing for the violence on transwomen.

This is the last time I address any pity party posts flung at me from transwomen simply for being a transman.
 

The hardships trans folks (men and women) go through are very personal and profound.  It's never a good idea to question, criticize or mock the efforts of another.  It hurts. It offends.  It forms walls amongst us.  Nuff said.

Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 12:57:53 AM

Quote from: Nero on August 17, 2007, 12:37:18 AM

First off, I made a statement about the difficulty of transmen to ever be viewed legally as men in these types of situations. Nowhere did I discuss danger levels or anything of the sort. You posted something amounting to 'why surgery is the way to go'. I simply stated that transmen don't really have such an option.

What I wrote about was the possible dangers of being non-op in this society as it currently exists. Both in prison and in situations as where Tyra Hunter died. I was talking about specific instances in connection to the post about the transwoman who was incarcerated. If there was a pity party, it's you taking this discussion out of context and, out of nowhere, turning into bemoaning how you don't have surgical options... which in fact, you do. So what's your problem with that, dear? What are we complaining about now? Not enough attention?

The discussion from what I read was about being legally considered a man or woman. I quoted your post with genopunk's post embedded from your quote. Genopunk's post dealt solely with being seen as your birth gender in jail.
Your post said 'I always mention this kind of thing to non-ops.'
So I simply stated that not all TS have the option of being physically congruent enough to pass muster.
Instead of addressing my post, you immediately started in on 'we have it so much worse than you' rant.
A simple 'So what.' in response to my statement would've sufficed.

As for the rest of this:

Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 12:57:53 AM

QuoteThis is the second time you have turned a benign statement of mine into a pity party for transwomen.
Why do some transwomen feel the need to shout from the rooftops how hard they have it?
Why do they feel the need to state what a bowl of cherries they think a transman's life is?
Do they harbour some kind of resentment towards transmen?

When you experience the same level of violence and scorn in society that transwomen do, then you're ENTITLED to call it a 'pity party.' I prefer to call it the ugly truth. Sorry, I forgot we have to be equal in terms of the what we face from society or else little brother throws a tantrum.

QuoteSecondly, I know all about TG women in prison. I've heard plenty of stories and descriptions from friends on the inside.
So don't tell me to 'imagine' anything. To be honest, the assumption that I don't know or care about violence on transwomen is insulting. I never ever said anything of the kind. My friend's TS girlfriend was found in a dumpster with her face smashed in. His pain was my pain. Stop with the insinuations that I care nothing for the violence on transwomen.

That assumption was your creation and your own issues. Kindly don't dump them on me. I stated a tragic factual case about a transwoman who was, in affect, murdered for being a nonop. You decided to make it into your own little crusade. I can't control how you interpret things. But I never insinuated anything of the kind. In past, I have said you have some obnoxious attitudes concerning feminism and I don't appreciate a lot of the language you use about women, but I've never made any kind of suggestion about your insensitivity toward violence and I find it hurtful that you're suggesting I did.

And again, a discussion is derailed into something that has little to do with the important original question asked. I want to apologize to the other people participating in this thread for taking it off in a very upsetting direction. These are some very important issues of safety we were discussing.

Gina M.

Beep. Beep. Beep.

We're sorry, but Nero doesn't address pity party posts of this kind.

Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 01:57:44 AM

Quote from: Nero on August 17, 2007, 01:35:28 AM


Beep. Beep. Beep.

We're sorry, but Nero doesn't address pity party posts of this kind.

Hello... Operator, there's a madman I'm trying to call who isn't picking up on the other end. Yes, he thinks he's talking to other people but he's really talking to himself. [nods head] Uh huh, yes, one of THOSE. Operator... is there anything that can be done for this person... he's really a sweetie even though he can be highly annoying sometimes... what do you recommend?
[nods head] uh huh... uh huh, uh huh. I see... I see, I see. Let him stew in his own juices but tell him how much you still care about him? Thanks... thanks for your help. I'll do exactly as you said.

ciao,
Gina M.

LoL *hugs Gina*

Sadly enough, I LEGALLY am a woman...  still.   

It's easy and cheap enough where I live to change your name legally, which takes care of most issues, (aside from that tricky Passport thing).

My problem is that I can't change my name legally unless I wish to potentially mess up a possibly rather large inheretance.  What's a poor guy to do...? 

Thanks for bringing up this topic... it makes for some thought provoking questions that we all have to deal with.

Scott

i've changed my name & gender marker with my local dmv and ss office.  i can only change my birth certificate after grs. it's a matter of days now.

My government happily and cheerfully changed my gender on everything after chest surgery. They then happily and cheerfully declined to cover any medical procedures or tests that males do not get.

Yay governments.

Dennis

Quote from: Buffy on August 16, 2007, 11:24:11 PM
So how is one declared legally Female or Male in the US?

It appears that there is no clear legal prescedent?

Buffy

You are talking about a concept that doesn't exist.  There is no such thing as being declared legally F or M in the US.  That power exists only at the state level, and no law requires any state to recognize any other state's action in this reguard.

I'm not sure about the US, Gina. In Canada, top surgery suffices for changing everything, including passports. Just being on T is sufficient for a British Columbia driver's licence.

Unfortunately I have a UK birth certificate, so I'll have to jump through their hoops at some point.

Dennis

One little question, once I'm legally female in Canada, do I just send the docs to change my SSN in the US (I worked there for 3 years), the next time I work or become resident there? Are there other identifications that woud linger in the US, probably credit report, but I never had a US issued credit card (I used my Canadian issued one and just changed the address when I moved) and I last time I paid a phone or whatever bill in the US was in 2003.  At the state level, I had a driver license in California but when I moved to Quebec I had to give it back in exchange for my Quebec one in 2003.

Quote from: regina on August 16, 2007, 11:13:47 AM
I'm going back and forth about my birth certificate.

Anyone have any other good reasons?

ciao,
Gina M.

The Real ID Act. I suggest you change it as soon as you are able. The provisions for the law were only pushed back to the end of 09. If you do not then the Department of Homeland Security can force all of your gender markers to match what is on the birth certificate. They are the authority and for the gender area there are no guidelines set down yet.

Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 10:53:39 AM
For the drivers license you'd just go to the DMV with your passport, and wait in line to be insulted and dehumanized like everyone else.

Hmm, I wasn't insulted or dehumanized when I did this, and I did it before I went fulltime.  It actually went quite smoothly and they treated me as a woman including calling me ma'am.  I think it's really something that's hit or miss with how you are treated, but my point is that there ARE experiences like mine that go just fine.

Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 10:53:39 AM

Quote from: Dennis on August 17, 2007, 09:34:57 AM
I'm not sure about the US, Gina. In Canada, top surgery suffices for changing everything, including passports. Just being on T is sufficient for a British Columbia driver's licence.

Unfortunately I have a UK birth certificate, so I'll have to jump through their hoops at some point.

Dennis

Ooh, Canada. I didn't know you were one of THEM (actually, small request: can you kindly sponsor me, give me a job and let me move in with you for a few years? Pleeez.). Glad it wasn't too overly complicated to do that. Now, are there any us 'Mericans out there who can answer my question within the context of the land of the unfree?

ciao,
Gina M.

I'll look up other states. Mine full SRS is required. (may be a small but doubtful loophole) Some states require a hysterectomy. I was lucky enough to be born in one of only 2 states that never change birth certificates no matter how much surgery, therefore I can never really achieve stealth. There is a very slim chance I can even get my license changed.

Quote from: Nero on August 17, 2007, 12:19:35 PM
I'll look up other states. Mine full SRS is required. (may be a small but doubtful loophole) Some states require a hysterectomy. I was lucky enough to be born in one of only 2 states that never change birth certificates no matter how much surgery, therefore I can never really achieve stealth. There is a very slim chance I can even get my license changed.

This is the link to change your gender marker on a drivers license:

http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange

To change your birth certificate where applicable:

http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html

U.S. passports for transsexuals:

http://www.geocities.com/sherrylanina/TempPassport.html

QuoteSSA (Social Security Administration) records



Prior to 2002, some pre-ops were able to change the sex marker on their Social Security record.  Having an orchiectomy seemed to improve the odds that the clerks would be willing to change the sex marker, and some were even lucky enough to encounter a clerk who was kind enough to change the sex marker without any surgery at all.



But on October 3rd, 2002, the Social Security Administration changed their rules and now refuses to change the sex marker until you have had the complete SRS surgery.  Some pre-ops who managed to change their sex markers before October 2002 have even reported that the SSA changed those markers back to M.

SSA policy for changing data on their records:

https://s044a90.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/0/cc131541aa8b691685256e410011e5d9?OpenDocument

One of those PMS moments with the SSA:

http://www.geocities.com/sherrylanina/SSA.html

Some exceptions:

http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=524


I believe that things will get even worse with the upcoming Real ID Act law...


tink

In Australia especially South Australia the wording of Legislation states that you must have had affirmation surgery that could be hormones to alter your genitals or SRS with a neo vagina. All you need is a letter from a psychiatrist and one from a psychologist to verify you are on hormones to alter your genitals. I did mine without the letters and just explained to the people what was going on and that I could get letter from my doctors and therapists if they like and they said no thats fine. I think they are sick and tired of all the red tape and government handling of gender issues.

Sara.

Here in Hawaii, They will amend your BC and DL. However, the pre-op information will always be on record. i.e. at the bottom of my amended BC, states this document has been amended. Which can always be reffered to, by city and state employees. Thus, you can only be stealth, to those who are not privy to the info. Other then that, as long as your post-op you can consider yourself a legal women.

I have a lot of pre-op friends, who still deal with not being accepted as a legal women...SUCKS! but true.

I have no interest in the legalities......many transsexuals have bits of paper saying this or that and are legally female but they are still taken as male on face value, so the documents don't really help them.

We have the 'Gender recognition bill' in the U.K which is really only in existance because people are not excepted as female...if a gender change was successful the 'Gender recognition bill' would not exist.

My true gender doesn't exist, legally.

'Nuff said.

Hi Katia, congrats, Join the ranks of some of us old timers, I went through all that 7 years ago. I just run across the link for this group that was way buried in my email and here I am again. Got curious. 

Sincerely

Cynthia

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 02:29:31 AM

---

Hi Keira,

A friend of mine told me that the best thing to do with Social Security is to contact them and ask where to send any papers showing a change of name and/or gender.  A certified copy of your birth certificate or a court order approving your change(s) will usually suffice.  Don't expect any annuity payments from Social Security on just 12 quarters (3 years) of contributions.  Ask them how to handle it so you don't lose whatever money you have paid-in to Social Security.

As for credit reports and other things following you from California to Canada, I wouldn't be concerned.  I have come to learn that Canadian banks don't pull U.S. credit reports.  In any case, Canadian law protects us better than U.S. laws in many important socioeconomic areas.

Cynthia

I've got all my papers changed with the exception of birth records.  I will take care of that wee problem after GRS.