Quote from: Inanna on March 21, 2014, 10:13:49 PM
It's not strictly about expressing feminine for me; it's about feeling comfortable in my physical form.  Of course, I love expressing feminine but that's not the reason I transitioned.

Of course.  When it boils it down to the nitty-gritty, isn't that what it is all about?  Being ourselves?  We want something we want, and are willing to go to great lengths to get it.  The results outshine the reasons.  Motivations are invisible, results are not.  All that good stuff.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but if you identify as androgynous, you say you can never (and you make that point explicitly) call yourself a woman, but even though you was born with a male body, can you call yourself a man?

If your definition of being a woman is menstruation and the ability to have children, there are cis women who can't, but i would hate to think they start to think of themselves as less of a woman. In the same respect that men who have a very low or non existent sperm count, are they not men because they can not reproduce?

Quote from: castle of glass on March 22, 2014, 06:33:49 AM
I hope you don't mind me asking, but if you identify as androgynous, you say you can never (and you make that point explicitly) call yourself a woman, but even though you was born with a male body, can you call yourself a man?

If your definition of being a woman is menstruation and the ability to have children, there are cis women who can't, but i would hate to think they start to think of themselves as less of a woman. In the same respect that men who have a very low or non existent sperm count, are they not men because they can not reproduce?

It comes down to this, as well as the other things I mentioned:

Remember, this is for myself and my own personal definitions for myself.  I am not going to force this on anyone else.

MTFs retain the prostate after the op.  The prostate is exclusive to males. 
If a man is infertile, he still has a prostate.  As a post-op, even with a feminine exterior and the ability to lactate, a MTF still has THAT.  The prostate, even though it is reduced to doing just about nothing post-op, is still there.

MTFs do not have a womb.  Wombs are exclusive to females.  Infertility, inability to menstrate, not lactate so forth so forth isn't the issue.  Bio women have a womb: and if they remove it, they HAD a womb.  Even if you remove a bio woman's womb, they will still lack the prostate.

So, FOR ME AND ME ALONE: no womb (functional or not) means I AM not a woman.  I will still have a prostate.  I will have breasts and a vagina, but no ovaries.  I will lack a penis and sperm (fertile or not.)  So, I will be in a state of what I view as a "gender limbo" or "gender neutral" ground: thus, androgynous...or, "transdrogynous" as someone else mentioned in the thread.  As a drog, that "gender neutral" area doesn't sound like such a bad place.

If, in the future, they could remove the prostate and turn a man completely into a functional woman, I may have to consider changing my views.  However, currently, they do not so I cannot go on the "what ifs" and "may be" for myself.  I go by the what-is.  Even if they could do it in my life time, I probably wouldn't be able to afford it and I would be a MTF with a prostate and no womb and thus couldn't call MYSELF a woman.

Like I like to tell my wife sometimes:

"I am too much of a b*****d to be a woman, but too much of a b**** to be a man." 

Remember my disclaimer:

This is how I define it for myself and no one else.

If that's how you define yourself only, why do you mention MTFs as a category?

@ Ev; I am very much on your wavelength. 

This is such a slippery, perspective dependent topic that I dont even attempt to define it even to myself, much less to a world (and even TG community) that likes and even needs rigid categories to define identity and relationships.

Quote from: Inanna on March 22, 2014, 09:01:03 PM
If that's how you define yourself only, why do you mention MTFs as a category?

Is MTFs a category?  What else am I supposed to use?  Tell me of another word I can use, then.  I am open to suggestions.  I fall under the MTF category like anyone else who gets the MTF PROCEDURE.  Should I use a more generalized term for someone who is getting the MTF procedure without wanting to identify as female?  Is there one?  If there is I will gladly use it so I do not step on any more of the beautiful little lady-toes out there.  I am serious about this.  Communication helps tear down walls, which termonology oftentimes is.  There is obviously a considerable amount of confusion on this subject, and perhaps we need to create a word for the INTENT and not the procedure itself.

For example, if you are a MTF going through the MTF process to identify yourself as female, we can call this the MTFs.

If you are a drog like myself going through the MTF SURGERY for health or other personal reasons, what should we call it?  Androgynous Feminization Surgery/AFS?  The surgery is the same but the intent is different.

A large reason why I joined this site is to better understand the Trans community and not so much myself.  I already know how I feel about the subject but I am a person who loves to understand people and think that if such emphasis is put on terms like this, there needs to be termonology that seperates the MTFs from the (what I shall call for now) AFS-ers like myself.

They can remove the prostrate; it just serves no function to do so.  Females have a prostrate too, albeit very small.  Hormones do feminize the prostrate, though I wouldn't pretend to know how or how much.

As for labels, it's hard to say.  I would never tell someone what to call themselves.  I think that some words carry multiple, closely related meanings, but language isn't perfect.

Quote from: Ev on March 22, 2014, 09:46:02 PM

Quote from: Inanna on March 22, 2014, 09:01:03 PM
If that's how you define yourself only, why do you mention MTFs as a category?

Is MTFs a category?  What else am I supposed to use?  Tell me of another word I can use, then.  I am open to suggestions.  I fall under the MTF category like anyone else who gets the MTF PROCEDURE.  Should I use a more generalized term for someone who is getting the MTF procedure without wanting to identify as female?  Is there one?  If there is I will gladly use it so I do not step on any more of the beautiful little lady-toes out there.  I am serious about this.  Communication helps tear down walls, which termonology oftentimes is.  There is obviously a considerable amount of confusion on this subject, and perhaps we need to create a word for the INTENT and not the procedure itself.

For example, if you are a MTF going through the MTF process to identify yourself as female, we can call this the MTFs.

If you are a drog like myself going through the MTF SURGERY for health or other personal reasons, what should we call it?  Androgynous Feminization Surgery/AFS?  The surgery is the same but the intent is different.

A large reason why I joined this site is to better understand the Trans community and not so much myself.  I already know how I feel about the subject but I am a person who loves to understand people and think that if such emphasis is put on terms like this, there needs to be termonology that seperates the MTFs from the (what I shall call for now) AFS-ers like myself.

I think it's probably okay to just say you don't identify as a woman. One term a lot of people use here is androgyne or non binary (or actually drog sounds awesome!). Some androgyne or non binary peeps transition to various extents. It doesn't really matter why they don't identify as women (or men), though it can be helpful to talk about.

You can always say that you're MTA, male to androgyne.

Ev,

I understand your reasons for calling yourself a drog.  Your thread has set off an interesting discussion.  I am showing myself as Androgyne here, and trying to move toward transition.  My reasons to use the A label rather than the F label are different and relate to how successful a transition I can realistically expect.  If at some point I can transition well enough to "blend in" (forget passing...) as a female, then I would change the label in a heartbeat.

I really do like the idea of each person defining themselves as they see fit.

Good topic!


Erin

Good reads! For me, I don't really care about labels and words as they I think they are all ambiguous and subjective. I don't restrain myself with labels. Telling non-trans people is like describing colors to a blind person! If I do have to, I just say MtF feminine genderqueer  lol

What a fascinating thread! I've thought quite a long time about what would define a "woman" to different people. I still haven't figured out how to define it for myself though. Some questions and thought experiments I've used have been:

Are women just people who define themselves that way and wish to be treated as such? This would be a non biological assertion.

Are women just people who have feminine traits such as breasts and or a vagina? This would be more along the lines of those who pursue hrt and grs.

Are women just people who are born biologically female? This is probably the stance many people take but there is an issue I find in it. That issue is what defines a biological female? Is it merely being born with a vagina? Does it extend to just chromosomes? There are too many anomalies to just define it based on chromosomes or just being born with a vagina. The issue I have with this is what about people born with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome)? They develop as female even though they should have developed as male, biologically speaking of course.

So, that leads to the very last thought I have had. Is a woman just a person who has had the female experience from birth until the present moment? If that becomes a persons definition of a woman then there are no medical advances that will ever make people who believe that change their minds.

As for myself, I know that I will never have that experience even though I wish I could. The closest thing tech wise I could think that would allow that would be a virtual world simulation if we get to the point of being able to have a virtual reality fast enough and real enough that could speed our experiences up from what they would be in real time. This wouldn't solve the problem of solely experiencing from birth to the present moment however it would allow us to experience things from all sorts of perspectives. We could see what our lives would be like if certain events happened. We could live in any era of history as long as we can get the simulations up to speed then there is no limit as to what we could experience. We could also record others' (real people's) thoughts and live their lives. 

As humans we have the right to express ourselves however we wish to. It is in our very nature. We observe, mimic, discover, and create based on what we've seen. We add our own unique individuality to the world. I haven't fully made my mind up yet as far as gender is concerned, but I know that whatever I discover it will be unique.        

Hey,

what about quibble or words are nothing but smoke and mirrors? A Woman/man inside, androgyn, mtf/ftm, queer, fluid or just trans, etc. Anyone can pick what they want if it helps for selfacceptance. Is there really a huge difference or a deeper meaning?

Greetings