I'm confused as to what the term androgyne encompasses and what it does not. Is being an androgyn only one, all or none of these?:

- To have no gender identity

- To have a fluidity of expression(one minute you act feminine, next your acting all machismo and the next minute you're acting completely neutral)

- To be both male and female at the same time(third gender perhaps?).

I think it varies from person to person. For me identifying as androgyne means, that I have both male and female traits and that I can't put myself into a box 'male' or 'female'. I was assigned male at birth and I feel mostly alright with my male body, but I've always had a strong desire to dress and present myself in a feminine fashion.

I also identify as genderqueer.

Tamara Thor's right. It varies. There do seem to be a lot of different terms under the androgyne or non-binary umbrella:

Quote from: Rena on March 24, 2014, 07:17:59 PM
I'm confused as to what the term androgyne encompasses and what it does not. Is being an androgyn only one, all or none of these?:

- To have no gender identity this is often referred to as 'neutrois'

- To have a fluidity of expression(one minute you act feminine, next your acting all machismo and the next minute you're acting completely neutral) often referred to as simply 'fluid'

- To be both male and female at the same time(third gender perhaps?). not sure on this one, perhaps third gender or androgyne

There's another one called bigender which I think is someone who feels two distinct sides to their gender identity rather than a mix. This person might even give the male and female sides different names.

At the risk of sounding a bit crass, androgyne was a label that became incredibly popular in the nineties and has since been forgotten.  There are literally hundreds of labels for non-binary identities.  I happen to like genderqueer, because it's designed to actively reject both male and female standards, not combining them...but there are as many different labels as there are people.  Generally, most of them refer to a very similar set of concepts, but I think androgyne is more of a "both" label, and genderqueer says "nether"-though in my personal opinion, all of this is moot, because they represent the rejection of the same idea.

I happen to think that gender itself is really just a set of boxes, and that beyond anatomy (damn anatomy!), nothing is really inherently "male" or "female"...I suppose these labels are an incredibly wonderful way to protest the way we've structured this system though. 

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on March 25, 2014, 12:03:40 AM
At the risk of sounding a bit crass, androgyne was a label that became incredibly popular in the nineties and has since been forgotten.  There are literally hundreds of labels for non-binary identities.  I happen to like genderqueer, because it's designed to actively reject both male and female standards, not combining them...but there are as many different labels as there are people.  Generally, most of them refer to a very similar set of concepts, but I think androgyne is more of a "both" label, and genderqueer says "nether"-though in my personal opinion, all of this is moot, because they represent the rejection of the same idea.

I happen to think that gender itself is really just a set of boxes, and that beyond anatomy (damn anatomy!), nothing is really inherently "male" or "female"...I suppose these labels are an incredibly wonderful way to protest the way we've structured this system though.

Thanks for the insightful post.

I don't know what I am. But I feel okay with having some 'maleness' inside but feel bad about being a male on the outside.

My understanding is that Androgyne is a term that can mean any non-binary gender inentity

Quote from: Rena on March 24, 2014, 07:17:59 PM
I'm confused as to what the term androgyne encompasses and what it does not. Is being an androgyn only one, all or none of these?:

- To have no gender identity

this is genelaly seen as agender or neturos

Quote
- To have a fluidity of expression(one minute you act feminine, next your acting all machismo and the next minute you're acting completely neutral)

if you change the word expresion to identity then this is generaly seen as gender fluid or if jumping between 2 points maybe bigender.
expresion and identity are often 2 different things.  Most Trans people try to find a way of expressing themselves to match their identity.

Quote
- To be both male and female at the same time(third gender perhaps?).

this is where I see myself being both Male and female at same time all the time.  I personally like the term intergender.

all of these gender identities come under the androgyne and non binary umbrellas.

Quote from: FA on March 24, 2014, 09:22:33 PM
Tamara Thor's right. It varies. There do seem to be a lot of different terms under the androgyne or non-binary umbrella:

There's another one called bigender which I think is someone who feels two distinct sides to their gender identity rather than a mix. This person might even give the male and female sides different names.

There's a lot of similarity between bigender and genderfluid...I'm not entirely sure they are separate things, in that both sort of describe me, in that I'm fine, even more comfortable in between, I definitely have the same "flips" bigender identifying people do, but on a certain level I increasingly see myself as non-binary/androgyne, as a whole of what I am...which still always is a girl in guy's body, but I entirely don't hate that body, and what comes with it, so I identify as a guy in some ways also. Who's to say I can't like being a girl in a guy's body?

I understand.  I'm confused too.

Over the time I have spent here, I think I've heard more different ways of describing what it is to be Non-binary.
The conclusion I've come to realize is that everyone has a different viewpoint on what any given term means.
This leaves them without much actual meaning and their descriptions much the same way.
But what does come to the front of these discussions is that everyone does have a descriptive way of defining themselves.
So more to the point, try being descriptive in your description of yourself.
Rather than trying to define yourself with terms that have descriptions all over the place.
It isn't necessary to use a term, and when the descriptions of those terms are defined differently from one person to the next, what do they accomplish?
By trying to box yourself into a term, the short hand of a description, you only set yourself and others up for confusion.
I love reading the descriptive nature of you all, but the hope of there being the possibility of finalizing them into terms doesn't exist.
The very nature of us defies this because none of us are the same.
This shows in the way everyone uses descriptive ways to describe themselves.
I have yet to see one that falls directly into a term and that term only.
We either are combinations of those terms or use them differently than the next person.
To be who you are, to express who you are, be descriptive.
Instead of trying to force a term or description to yourself.
I get that we all want to be able to use a term that accurately describes us, but using terms that are only partial or using several terms is hard to let others really understand who you are.
I find it much easier to understand any of you with the descriptive nature of what you write, long before I get what you're trying to get across by using confusing terms and their descriptions.
We are unique, you are unique.
Be unique, be descriptive, not a description.
Your descriptiveness defines you to others far more than trying to squeeze yourself into a boxed term.
Even the term non-binary is fuzzy around the edges.
When you think of yourself and write about yourself in descriptive ways, it's easy to understand who you are.
It makes it much easier for you to understand who you are.
But also understand that we all have so much more in common than we do that's different, at the same time.
It's why we can always discuss these things that are unique about ourselves.
Here is a place to find those commonalities and to express ourselves.
Being descriptive lets others know and understand your uniqueness and how you understand others here.
Whether they are non-binary or binary.
Because we all have more in common than we have as differences.
It's been fun,
Ativan

Let's see what the ultimate Androgyne has to say about it!

I'm not sure I would be able to classify anyone as the ultimate androgyne.
Andrej is a personality, a model who has gained a certain kind of notoriety, which is fun.
But I don't think that classifies them as the ultimate any more than Ellen as the ultimate lesbian?
Andrej I think of as one of the ultimate models, the versatility is pretty cool.
Just as Ellen is one of the ultimate talk show host.

But the video does make the same point.
Without going into using a term, they instead use descriptive ways to answer the questions,
which really, she was digging for a term for people to use, or for her to use.
Andrej sidestepped that in a very gracious way.

Andrej reminds me of a relationship I had in the early 70's.
'She' would have been described as a ->-bleeped-<- back then,
and had anyone known her like I did, they would have boxed her into that term.
She preferred she as a pronoun and most people understood her to be just that.
But in the privacy of our relationship, we talked a lot about gender kinds of things.
She was very outgoing and light hearted about it. I understood myself much more because of our discussions.
There wasn't such a thing as a non-binary in terms back then, not that I was aware of.
So our discussions revolved around descriptive things rather than a description.
One didn't exist for either of us.
She was more non-binary than binary, one of those people who crosses through that blurred line.
But because of a lack of terms or their descriptions, she chose to present as female rather than male.
Because of family and other things, she did present as a male for their benefit.
She understood it, how that works. She showed me how that worked for me as well.
But I presented as male, despite the feminine thoughts that ran through my head as well as the male ones did.
The time before her was one of massive confusion for me. I didn't feel male or female, yet I felt both.
No terms to use. No descriptions to use.
It was always descriptive in nature, our discussions and more.
A lot of what I have tried to relate lately reflects those times.
It worked for us, there wasn't another way to talk to each other about ourselves.
Over the decades since, many terms and descriptions have popped up.
But it's always been difficult to use them. They just don't quite fit.
Sometimes close enough, but never quite right.

Watching the video reminds me so much about those times and how we talked to each other.
The duality of gender poured out of her in much the same way.
Her sexuality was very much the same way.
We were young and very much in love, so the discussions went into the kind of depth that love allowed.
Nice memories, thanks for posting the video,
Ativan

Thought you'd enjoy it as I did. I suppose having used the term ultimate was a misnomer, but it was her non-binary inner self that she exuded so well that I thought really made the video fit here. And as we saw, the interviewer typically tried to get her stuffed neatly into one gender box or another which as you say, she so neatly sidestepped.

I perceive androgyne is a vague umbrella term, I fit more specifically into genderqueer but I just dislike the queer on the end, connoting the identity too much. Androgyne, is more neutral in it's projection.

Ultimate androgyny, on my mind, would be Eva & Adele.

I consider androgyne to be a more neutral gender, personally, encompassing masculinity, femininity and everything in between. But it varies according to the person. There are people who think of androgyne as a very polarized gender.

Quote from: bornpurple on April 22, 2014, 09:15:32 AM
I consider androgyne to be a more neutral gender, personally, encompassing masculinity, femininity and everything in between.

You are absolutely correct. Well done bornpurple!

Quote from: Emerald on April 22, 2014, 07:28:48 PM

Quote from: bornpurple on April 22, 2014, 09:15:32 AM
I consider androgyne to be a more neutral gender, personally, encompassing masculinity, femininity and everything in between.

You are absolutely correct. Well done bornpurple!

Good to see you around the forest hon!

This is a good question.  In a way, I am masculine and feminine so I am both but in the same time I am not completely either one so I am neither.  hmmmm.  Am I both or am I neither?  I mean I am both physically because of my male body which has been feminizing more and more each day.  Not completely female and not completely male.  Internally I can access my male side but I usually idle at female.  Do I have to stay on one side of the spectrum most of the time to not be considered androgyne?

Some people say that everyone has masculine and feminine traits.  Is everyone sort of androgyne??  Crap, now I'm going to be thinking about this all day. >.<

Quote from: Lara the Lover and the Fighter on April 26, 2014, 03:15:39 AM
Some people say that everyone has masculine and feminine traits.  Is everyone sort of androgyne??  Crap, now I'm going to be thinking about this all day. >.<

That is pretty much how I have always thought of it... with gender being very fluid and not constant throughout a person's life. Some are more likely to sway heavily one way or another, while some find themselves a diverse mix of gender identifiers.

Some people have different associations with their internal and external gender. I know many cis women who think of themselves as more androgynous/masculine in action but still present in a very girly way. For myself, I like to present female but my actions and personality in life I consider to be very androgynous. I treasure not feeling obligated to act a certain way based on gender expectations

I think the bottom line here is that everyone, everyone in the world falls somewhere between these two socially constructed golden standards of "masculine" and "feminine".  Androgyne is one word for that.  Queer is another.  There are a hundred others-labels are never in short supply for our community.  But it all comes back to this principle that we do not have to obey these utterly pointless distinctions.

I take E, wear heels, and look fierce in a black dress; I also shave the sides of my head, enjoy a good evening jacket, and I'm one of the most assertive people I know.  I simply do what I prefer, and the ultimate result is, for better or worse, androgynous.  I think that if our society was structured differently, without these crass distinctions of what is "male" and what is "female", just about everyone in the world would be considered androgyne, or genderqueer, or non-binary, or whatever word you'd like to use.  It all comes down to refusing to conform to these traditional views on gender.