Gonna vomit todays thoughts on here, so sorry for the mess.

I thought I had everything sorted, but I've gone back to questioning. Lately Ive been feeling fine with my male body after slimming down considerably and shifting some muscle and flab. I've got my hair longer and managed to get into a habit of a softer, higher voice. I can look at myself and feel ok. I'm certain what is defined as 'a man' or 'masculine' does not work for me, at least mostly. I don't however, feel oblidged to act like what society expects a woman to be. I don't see any appeal in overly dressing up (though I do like to wear a skirt and tights sometimes). I do enjoy wearing makeup. I also enjoy sometimes having a beard (though rarely).

I went back to a lot of the stuff I read about being a man and manning up (before I gave up). I read up on virtue, on what is best defined as being manly and found something: Virtues like courage, honor etc. are not exclusive to being a man, and are inherently decent when practiced by anyone, thus ruling out the whole 'manly virtue' old fashioned jargon from the start. Being of decent character applies to anyone and has no standing on gender at all.

I don't know if I'm feminine male, female gender identity, gender fluid, queer, bigender or anything. I feel I am trans, but where in such a massively broad spectrum, I have no idea. I cross dress and cross live as and when I feel it. Sometimes I am perfectly fine in my body, othertimes I feel such despair I wish to go to sleep and wake up the next day as a woman.

As for transitioning. Im not sure. There is a desire to be feminine and female, but since I feel it is cosmetic, I see no need to give up what I currently have, especially when sometimes I am okay with my male body. I just find grooming differently helps a lot with it.

I don't need to be a manly man to be me, I don't need to be a girly girl, I don't need to put myself in a category. I'm just me. I'm not even sure if I will figure out where in the trans umbrella I fall, I just know I'm not finding cis lifestyle does it for me at all.

I know that was a massive dump right there, I think I've just come to a pretty solid stance for now

Sounds more than a little like someone I know quite well. Me.

In the end, I transitioned.. I'm far from a girly girl.. And some days I don't even bother the shave - I still get gendered female..

I'm a woman who is more than a little genderqueer. Most days I'm a jeans and top/tshirt kinda girl, but sometimes I break out a skirt and leggings or a nice dress, but it's not too common.

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 03, 2014, 05:29:10 PM
Sounds more than a little like someone I know quite well. Me.

In the end, I transitioned.. I'm far from a girly girl.. And some days I don't even bother the shave - I still get gendered female..

I'm a woman who is more than a little genderqueer. Most days I'm a jeans and top/tshirt kinda girl, but sometimes I break out a skirt and leggings or a nice dress, but it's not too common.

that is one heck of a relief to know. At least I'm not alone. *offers hug*

I actually talked bout this today lol..I'll never be a girly girl either I don't think and eww, def not a manly man, yuck. If you can stay as you are and be happy about it, you're lucky and shouldn't transition. I don't think I can ever be happy staying as I am though, with my current body, I don't think I'll ever like it or be comfortable with it. I guess that's why, dare I say, I'm leaning heavily towards transitioning now, because I wanna be happy and I just don't think I can ever be as a guy.

I have mainly 2 voices in my head (third one is not important here). The first one is telling me I'm a woman and the other one that I'm a man. They are batteling most of the time. I want to be girly. I try to act girly. So far, in the mirror, all I see is a member of the East-German swimming team. So yeah, the second voice wins...

voices in your head has other connotations to me, but I think I understand what you mean.

i think with me I resist some parts of how I feel because I was socialized male, it just didnt work properly. I sometimes feel a sense of shame in my crossliving but otherwise Im fine

[Temporarily Removed by User]

JayButterfly my heart goes out to you. Sadly I can't relate because I've wanted to transition since I was a kid. I'm finally doing it now going all the way and never felt better.

However, though I like to dress up and be girly alot, most days I'm a shorts and tank or halter top girl (I live in Florida). Also, being a girl doesn't mean I can't enjoy my 80 mph 21 foot Shadow bass boat, bass and other fishing, or my 4x4 Dodge Ram ext cab lifted 8" on 37's. I'm tiny also (5-5, 117 lbs.) and you should see the looks I get when lil ole me steps down out of my truck towing my boat, launching and retrieving her myself, etc. I get alot of offers of help from alot of guys but I turn them down constantly. I can no longer pass for male so there is no "mode" for me, I'm just all girl. I also still tinker with computers and play my computer games, love sci -fi, etc. But I also love shopping, shoes, jewlry, painting my nails, and being girly. I have very long feminine legs for my height and show them off every chance I get. I have my own lasers for hair removal and one IPL device. I love having a many/petty and being pampered. On the other end of the rope I work on boat motors and fix computers for extra money. I'm not afraid to get greasy working on my truck, etc.

I say all this to you because, just because I'm a girl doesn't mean I have to give up everything I love doing. It seems you have a big decision to make. I hope I've helped a little.

Ally

Quote from: Allyda on April 04, 2014, 10:54:32 AM
JayButterfly my heart goes out to you. Sadly I can't relate because I've wanted to transition since I was a kid. I'm finally doing it now going all the way and never felt better.

However, though I like to dress up and be girly alot, most days I'm a shorts and tank or halter top girl (I live in Florida). Also, being a girl doesn't mean I can't enjoy my 80 mph 21 foot Shadow bass boat, bass and other fishing, or my 4x4 Dodge Ram ext cab lifted 8" on 37's. I'm tiny also (5-5, 117 lbs.) and you should see the looks I get when lil ole me steps down out of my truck towing my boat, launching and retrieving her myself, etc. I get alot of offers of help from alot of guys but I turn them down constantly. I can no longer pass for male so there is no "mode" for me, I'm just all girl. I also still tinker with computers and play my computer games, love sci -fi, etc. But I also love shopping, shoes, jewlry, painting my nails, and being girly. I have very long feminine legs for my height and show them off every chance I get. I have my own lasers for hair removal and one IPL device. I love having a many/petty and being pampered. On the other end of the rope I work on boat motors and fix computers for extra money. I'm not afraid to get greasy working on my truck, etc.

I say all this to you because, just because I'm a girl doesn't mean I have to give up everything I love doing. It seems you have a big decision to make. I hope I've helped a little.

Ally

Thanks Ally, that meant a lot to me to read,

truth be told, I feel my life is moving on drastically, and some things I am moving on from as I embrace who I am now. I wasn't always aware I was trans until recently, but even as a kid I thought something was different, something was off that seperated me from other boys. At first I thought it was dyspraxia but now I see it's my gender identity.

I still enjoy things like my martial arts (though Im looking for a new teacher since my old dojo closed down, currently considering moving into a new style and self training my primary system) and I enjoy weightllifting, shooting, survival training. Then again, I may be better leaving my old classmates to go do training without them. They werent exactly the most open minded of sorts (things are 'gay' or '->-bleeped-<-goty.' I liked them as people mostly but that was a bit jarring). I think it's time I moved into something new, tried new things.

I know I still sure as hell like women. I also know that had my birth been different, I wouldnt probably feel this way.

It sounds to me like you're thinking a lot about the social boxes of "masculine" or "feminine" virtues and behaviors, and how our society expects men and women to act. Those things don't necessarily have anything to do with transness, though.

Here's how I'd put it...

Right before transition, I did a little test on myself to see if my desires were more to escape the social "box" of masculinity, or if I really did want to be female. And the way that I personally did this was basically to quit letting myself be hindered by societal expectations. I knew that I wanted to express myself in a more open, feminine manner. And so I did. I stopped faking the "dude" behavior and started being more open and nice to people. I wanted to wear more feminine clothes. And so I did. I adopted a more androgynous clothing style, and started wearing things like shorter shorts, v-neck shirts, panties, and more form-fitting jeans and shirts. I started openly talking about my more feminine interests with people, and basically giving myself the complete freedom to do whatever it was that I wanted to do, whether masculine or feminine, without any regard for what my physical sex dictated that I "should" do according to societal notions of normality. Plus I started losing weight, trying to get myself into a body that I was more happy with.

It was a big plus. I felt MUCH better about myself, more liberated, and people did start treating me in a MUCH friendlier manner. I was definitely happier. But in my case, even after the end of all of that, I realized that it wasn't enough. I didn't want to be a man wearing feminine things, communicating in that feminine way, and still living with a male body, male sex-drive, male emotions (or lack thereof,) and being treated as male socially. I wanted to be a girl doing those things. So finally I realized, it wasn't about my freedom of expression, it really was that I would not be happy unless I was female.

Have you asked yourself the same kind of thing? Is there any way that you can be happy as a male, if you just give yourself more social freedom to be yourself? Or is it really a problem so deep that even if you give yourself the complete freedom to do whatever you want, you still feel like you can't be yourself unless you're physically and socially a different sex?

Just something to think about. Try to separate out your gender identity from your gender expression. One doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 04, 2014, 03:07:31 PM
It sounds to me like you're thinking a lot about the social boxes of "masculine" or "feminine" virtues and behaviors, and how our society expects men and women to act. Those things don't necessarily have anything to do with transness, though.

Here's how I'd put it...

Right before transition, I did a little test on myself to see if my desires were more to escape the social "box" of masculinity, or if I really did want to be female. And the way that I personally did this was basically to quit letting myself be hindered by societal expectations. I knew that I wanted to express myself in a more open, feminine manner. And so I did. I stopped faking the "dude" behavior and started being more open and nice to people. I wanted to wear more feminine clothes. And so I did. I adopted a more androgynous clothing style, and started wearing things like shorter shorts, v-neck shirts, panties, and more form-fitting jeans and shirts. I started openly talking about my more feminine interests with people, and basically giving myself the complete freedom to do whatever it was that I wanted to do, whether masculine or feminine, without any regard for what my physical sex dictated that I "should" do according to societal notions of normality. Plus I started losing weight, trying to get myself into a body that I was more happy with.

It was a big plus. I felt MUCH better about myself, more liberated, and people did start treating me in a MUCH friendlier manner. I was definitely happier. But in my case, even after the end of all of that, I realized that it wasn't enough. I didn't want to be a man wearing feminine things, communicating in that feminine way, and still living with a male body, male sex-drive, male emotions (or lack thereof,) and being treated as male socially. I wanted to be a girl doing those things. So finally I realized, it wasn't about my freedom of expression, it really was that I would not be happy unless I was female.

Have you asked yourself the same kind of thing? Is there any way that you can be happy as a male, if you just give yourself more social freedom to be yourself? Or is it really a problem so deep that even if you give yourself the complete freedom to do whatever you want, you still feel like you can't be yourself unless you're physically and socially a different sex?

Just something to think about. Try to separate out your gender identity from your gender expression. One doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.

I'm not sure if you misinterperated what I put, but what you said about opening up about things people see as feminine is exactly what I'm doing. As I said, I don't see virtues and stuff like that as defining being a man or woman, so I have disregarded those things already. I haven't come to a conclusion as of yet if transitioning is right for me, but I find even with everything I do for grooming and such, theres only so much I can like about my body. I don't know about my nether regions, since I dont see that as the thing that needs to change... if it functioned like a biological one where I can concieve my own offspring thats another issue, but the technology and possibilites arent there,so I make do looking feminine.

I cope ok these days after adopting things like more feminine mannerism, learning stereotypically girly dance movements and gestures, styling my hair in ways that soften my face, wearing eyeliner, painting my nails and speaking softer. Wearing tights and a skirt in public has been recent and a big step for me, but one i think in time I will not care for the thoughts of others.

So yes, I do see myself as trans, I just havent come to a conclusion on if I'm bigende, genderfluid, queer, androgyne or outright transsexual. I want to give myself more time to work this out. Im only 22, Ive got a lot of living to do, but I know I am much happier as I am now. I have a friend who refers to me with female pronouns and knows how I feel I am, and it feels like they get to see the real me, the me nobody else sees. On the inside I am aware there is a feeling that tells says 'female' and then sometimes it's not there, but it's there more often than not.

I think it's weighing up what I want and the pros and cons. I think I am still at a right to identify as trans at this point.

Quote from: jaybutterfly on April 04, 2014, 03:42:42 PM
I cope ok these days after adopting things like more feminine mannerism, learning stereotypically girly dance movements and gestures, styling my hair in ways that soften my face, wearing eyeliner, painting my nails and speaking softer. Wearing tights and a skirt in public has been recent and a big step for me, but one i think in time I will not care for the thoughts of others.

So yes, I do see myself as trans, I just havent come to a conclusion on if I'm bigende, genderfluid, queer, androgyne or outright transsexual. I want to give myself more time to work this out. Im only 22, Ive got a lot of living to do, but I know I am much happier as I am now. I have a friend who refers to me with female pronouns and knows how I feel I am, and it feels like they get to see the real me, the me nobody else sees. On the inside I am aware there is a feeling that tells says 'female' and then sometimes it's not there, but it's there more often than not.

I think it's weighing up what I want and the pros and cons. I think I am still at a right to identify as trans at this point.

It sounds like you've alot of thinking to do. One thing you might try is just going out and being yourself, and dressing as yourself, then see how you feel afterward. It might help you with your decision.

Quote from: jaybutterfly on April 04, 2014, 03:42:42 PM
I'm not sure if you misinterperated what I put, but what you said about opening up about things people see as feminine is exactly what I'm doing. As I said, I don't see virtues and stuff like that as defining being a man or woman, so I have disregarded those things already. I haven't come to a conclusion as of yet if transitioning is right for me, but I find even with everything I do for grooming and such, theres only so much I can like about my body. I don't know about my nether regions, since I dont see that as the thing that needs to change... if it functioned like a biological one where I can concieve my own offspring thats another issue, but the technology and possibilites arent there,so I make do looking feminine.

I cope ok these days after adopting things like more feminine mannerism, learning stereotypically girly dance movements and gestures, styling my hair in ways that soften my face, wearing eyeliner, painting my nails and speaking softer. Wearing tights and a skirt in public has been recent and a big step for me, but one i think in time I will not care for the thoughts of others.

So yes, I do see myself as trans, I just havent come to a conclusion on if I'm bigende, genderfluid, queer, androgyne or outright transsexual. I want to give myself more time to work this out. Im only 22, Ive got a lot of living to do, but I know I am much happier as I am now. I have a friend who refers to me with female pronouns and knows how I feel I am, and it feels like they get to see the real me, the me nobody else sees. On the inside I am aware there is a feeling that tells says 'female' and then sometimes it's not there, but it's there more often than not.

I think it's weighing up what I want and the pros and cons. I think I am still at a right to identify as trans at this point.

Sounds to me like you're doing great, then! Keep being yourself, keep exploring all of your options, keep thinking about it based on these life experiences, and the answer will come with time.

Quote from: Allyda on April 04, 2014, 08:24:58 PM
It sounds like you've alot of thinking to do. One thing you might try is just going out and being yourself, and dressing as yourself, then see how you feel afterward. It might help you with your decision.

I'm not sure what you mean by be yourself exactly. I know that may sound quite odd, but a lot of this dysphoria has made things like that quite confusing. Spending enough time in my boy clothes out and about does make me want to dress as a girl when I get home. My personality doesnt really change all that much so far as Im aware, but I know I'm calmer and less anxious or agitated when Ive got my femme stuff on. I'm actually easier to talk to hahah.

So for me, having to lead this double life (since Im not even out to my folks, Im literally going from student housing where I keep my girls things and get to live as I please there) to back home where I've got an older sibling hellbent on turning me into the bodybuilder he is and making me 'man up cause then I'd do better with girls' (I dont even want to consider dating while these issues are going on)

Hi Jay,
I'll add my voice to the "me too" chorus. I've been asking many of the same questions as you, and went through the same 'feminized male' changes as you recently. My conclusion was that I won't seek transition right now. People tell me that this attitude can change over time, and I believe them. But at this point in time, it isn't for me.

The thing is, I'm finding a lot of happiness in my life right now, as the 'mixed' gender. I've given myself permission to let the female side out of the closet. Having allowed myself those feminine behaviors that were previously out of bounds to me as a male has made life much sweeter. It's possible that this is enough for me. As others mentioned, the feelings of freedom and emotional honesty that come from this are phenomenal.

Like you, I'm also bewildered by all the categories. The urge to label myself was strong at first, I think that's true for everyone - we can point triumphantly and say "THAT'S what I am!" When pressed, I call myself trans, perhaps 'non-transitioning trans' is a close descriptor. I've taken a liking to the term 'queer', because it's a simple shorthand for my gender and sexual identity, ha ha.

Most importantly I'm just trying to stabilize my life around this new mystery identity, and trying to enjoy it, regardless of label.

Good luck with everything Jay, and don't forget to smell the roses!
- Jesse

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 04, 2014, 03:07:31 PM
Is there any way that you can be happy as a male, if you just give yourself more social freedom to be yourself? Or is it really a problem so deep that even if you give yourself the complete freedom to do whatever you want, you still feel like you can't be yourself unless you're physically and socially a different sex?

Just something to think about. Try to separate out your gender identity from your gender expression. One doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.

Interesting, I never asked myself those questions, nor have I tried to separate my gender identity from my gender expression. I've been trying on different labels for quite some time now, none of them totally fit, and I don't think any of them will totally fit, because I can't really be totally reduced to a one word description. Essentially, all of the labels can be considered umbrella terms, and I'm under a lot of umbrellas.

Just ignore your sibling, jaybutterfly, you don't want to be with someone that is attracted to some fake image you are projecting. They would eventually see through it.

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on April 06, 2014, 03:25:40 AM
Interesting, I never asked myself those questions, nor have I tried to separate my gender identity from my gender expression. I've been trying on different labels for quite some time now, none of them totally fit, and I don't think any of them will totally fit, because I can't really be totally reduced to a one word description. Essentially, all of the labels can be considered umbrella terms, and I'm under a lot of umbrellas.

Just ignore your sibling, jaybutterfly, you don't want to be with someone that is attracted to some fake image you are projecting. They would eventually see through it.

That's exactly how I feel!

I'm gonna start ignoring him a lot more, at least till Im out

I read your story...and the eeriest feeling came over me: it was as if I was reading my own story!! 

You are definitely not alone in this.  I've dealt with pretty much the same struggles as you have.  Ever since I came out to my closest family & friends and started incorporating more femininity into my daily dress my dysphoria has gone down so much!!  There really is a VERY broad gender spectrum, except sometimes I feel I see more people who have transitioned and sometimes I feel pressured, as if someone was saying "if you're trans you HAVE to transition, and you'll do it sooner or later".

I'm ok in my body for now, and as long as I can express myself, I have a feeling it's gonna be like that for a while  .

I too read a lot of my own story in there. Perhaps the same as with you but I sort of describe my "WTF am I doing?" response of "Man UP. Just force your way through this...AGAIN. You've done it before, you can do it again". That plagues me a lot since I did have a fairly good 3 decade long run of forcing my way through it. To which I also have a response

"I know what doesn't work"; and the shear force of will does not. I have learned during this nearly 6 year process now of taking on the trans beast is where my true joy lies. Where I feel the most alive. Where I feel the happiest being me, being in my own skin. What I want to see when I look in the mirror.

If you saw me in male mode you would not recognize me. For TDOR not long ago I showed up at my TG support groups event in drab. Only the group moderator who has seen me several times that way knew who I was. No one else. This dichotomy is all there is. Sure I may not dress girly-girl if I needed to do an oil change or replace the brakes on the Blazer. But I will still be doing that even if I was full-time. I will because I enjoy it. It is a big part of who I am. My identity, sense of self. I am a motorhead, just as much as I am the Master of the Electron, as my wife puts it.

If I may, I might also suggest the reason for your wavering may be similar to one of my own. That is fear. Also throw in a good measure of shame, and guilt. There is no question in my mind which is more important, my joy, or the possible loss of many of the other things in my life starting with a major joy and sense of self, my job, my wife, my home, and the ensuing financial collapse of everything else. At this time, risking all that is not worth the chance to find more joy.

My wife, my TG support group members, and even my therapist all constantly remind me in one way or another that I am mostly happy now. Far more then ever before in my life. SO STOP WORRYING ABOUT THE FUTURE. Live for today. Or in other words Be Mindful. What if'ing things to death, playing mental chess games is an occupational hazard for me. I also know I have a very poor track record of success when doing that to plan my life. Again, I know what doesn't work.

I have a similar feeling to yours, i dont like being girly or wearing those sundresses or those overexposing clothes. They just feel way too female or slutty. But those somewhat misogynist ideas are coming from a vast amount of weak, over emotional, inconsistent and incapable of leading women i have met in my life.
It is obviously wrong since everyone knows strong independent women exist and many times are better than men but i guess opinions that are reinforced through life experience are hard to change over night. Though i never acted misogynistic towards the women i met i just always had a problem accepting myself as a woman because of it.
People are different, some are manly men, some are girly men, some are nerdy men and women can be just as diverse, there are emotional ones, independent ones, charismatic ones etc.

Though even if i fully accept being trans and transition i will still prefer to wear more male looking clothes, i dont know but i just never liked the idea of sundresses or overly exposing clothes though.

I think it just comes down to what you feel more comfortable with? Do you like the idea of living your entire life as a not overly masculine male or would you prefer to be a "less girly" independent woman? That was the question which really made me realize what i wanted, though the description obviously vary from what each person wants.