So, not to restart an argument, I loathe arguing, but I have come across some very relevent articles (all with subsquent comments from some men questioning the whole concept of beauty culture and gender roles) so I thought I would paste them. I know for myself, lately, I have been criticized by this woman for being a know-it-all b!tch and "too smart." But, really, I was just talking. Luckily, for me, my BF now despises her. Did she think she could talk ->-bleeped-<- and make me cry that much and he wouldn't care? (Oh gawd, I'm always tangenting). Plus, now I'm getting a complex about speaking about things (like the economy or just anything) that interests me, because I don't want to be "too smart," which I think is really unfair. It's not a new complex. I just buried it and now it has resurfaced five-fold. BTW, the person saying this is an older 50-something woman who uses older men and thinks she's the ->-bleeped-<-. But, back to 1950 with her. The links:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/how-rigid-gender-expectations-harm-our-daughters-and-sons

http://www.newnownext.com/gender-swapped-commercials-show-off-sexualized-men-watch/03/2014/

http://elitedaily.com/women/we-had-no-other-choice-how-society-has-made-us-insecure-women/

One of the very first things I noticed in the female role was this feeling.  The smarter I let myself seem, the less people thought of me.  And yeah, not from arguing or whatever, I try to steer clear of that, just from simply revealing that I do have a brain.  It wasn't overt, but I felt and internalized that feedback rather strongly, and while I got it from both genders, it was mostly men.

I learned to kind of play dumb at first, which I felt gross about doing.  I don't do that anymore cause it's ridiculous, but I do still find myself just being less apt to lend my thoughts to a conversation to which I probably could add something because I just hate that feeling.  It is one of those subtle things society does to women that keeps them in their place, I feel.

Quote from: Jen on April 13, 2014, 05:40:20 PM
One of the very first things I noticed in the female role was this feeling.  The smarter I let myself seem, the less people thought of me.  And yeah, not from arguing or whatever, I try to steer clear of that, just from simply revealing that I do have a brain.  It wasn't overt, but I felt and internalized that feedback rather strongly, and while I got it from both genders, it was mostly men.

I learned to kind of play dumb at first, which I felt gross about doing.  I don't do that anymore cause it's ridiculous, but I do still find myself just being less apt to lend my thoughts to a conversation to which I probably could add something because I just hate that feeling.  It is one of those subtle things society does to women that keeps them in their place, I feel.

This is so true! People really didn't seem very happy with me when I came across as too smart. On more than a few occasions I was accused of "thinking I was better than everyone else" when I didn't even say anything that could be construed as condescending. I very rarely played dumb...I remember one time I was working and some guy said something really stupid, so I just kept on with my job. He goes to his friend "ha, she doesn't think I'm funny!" I continued just scanning the groceries and he keeps going "huh? Huh? Haha! You don't think I'm funny!"

I wanted to be like "no you're an actual dumbass please stop talking."

Fortunately I work at an organisation of mostly women where being knowledgeable is seen as highly desirable.

That is an interesting point about acting too smart. I have not encountered that yet, but I am still a newbie. If i do, I guess it will have to be one of those things I refuse to buy into.

If you have something intelligent to add, the only dumb thing would be not to share it.

Quote from: Tori on April 13, 2014, 06:46:12 PM
That is an interesting point about acting too smart. I have not encountered that yet, but I am still a newbie. If i do, I guess it will have to be one of those things I refuse to buy into.

If you have something intelligent to add, the only dumb thing would be not to share it.

I don't think it's as simple as just speak your mind. The thing is I really want people to like me. And it's a lot easier said than done. The whole point of the "too smart" phenomena is to keep women in their place. As much as people on this board willl say men lovelovelove smart women, then why are there so many shows created by women and for women that show the travails and balancing act of being a career woman and dating? Fact is: men love to feel superior and the last thing they want is their "woman" to be smarter. Yeah, not all men are like this. But, I've encountered it a lot. Amd when you speak up for yourself. You get called the dreaded...Feminazi...

BTW, when I was more "guyish" people would compliment me on how smart I am...now it's a handicap. I want a man. And being all smart isn't going to win me brownie points. Simple as that.

Quote from: Jen on April 13, 2014, 05:40:20 PM
One of the very first things I noticed in the female role was this feeling.  The smarter I let myself seem, the less people thought of me.  And yeah, not from arguing or whatever, I try to steer clear of that, just from simply revealing that I do have a brain.  It wasn't overt, but I felt and internalized that feedback rather strongly, and while I got it from both genders, it was mostly men.

yeah, it's one of the first things I noticed too. It sucks. IDK. Maybe play half dumb...ugh.

While society can support it, we create our own views of the world.

If you believe being smart is a drawback, it will certainly be one. If that keeps you from expressing your intelligence, people will never have a chance to value your brain.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 13, 2014, 06:58:19 PM

Quote from: Tori on April 13, 2014, 06:46:12 PM
That is an interesting point about acting too smart. I have not encountered that yet, but I am still a newbie. If i do, I guess it will have to be one of those things I refuse to buy into.

If you have something intelligent to add, the only dumb thing would be not to share it.

I don't think it's as simple as just speak your mind. The thing is I really want people to like me. And it's a lot easier said than done. The whole point of the "too smart" phenomena is to keep women in their place. As much as people on this board willl say men lovelovelove smart women, then why are there so many shows created by women and for women that show the travails and balancing act of being a career woman and dating? Fact is: men love to feel superior and the last thing they want is their "woman" to be smarter. Yeah, not all men are like this. But, I've encountered it a lot. Amd when you speak up for yourself. You get called the dreaded...Feminazi...

I think one roadblock I've encountered in trying to talk about this may be that people who have lived as both sides for a significant length of time are more aware of the discrepancies.  Unfortunately, this requires passing for the full experience; if I'm treated as an ftm or butch woman, I'm not being treated as male and vice versa. I'm not meaning to belittle or put anyone down, but most argumentative replies I've received on this have been from either early transition trans women or trans men. And most of those agreeing with me have been men and women who are post-transition and have lived as both.

I was seriously sexist pre-transition. I had no women friends ever. Trust me, when I say I was the last person to ever talk about something like this. It's only after transition when I started to realize how differently women are viewed and treated. So, I really don't expect too many pre-transition peeps (male or female) to get this. That's not meant as a slight. Just that you really do start to notice things going from perceived cis girl to cis guy. And vice versa.

How like a man to brush my little opinion aside.

Where I work it is 80% female with a female president. I am on committee's with some of the brightest people in their field of science. I love where I work.

Quote from: Tori on April 13, 2014, 07:15:17 PM
How like a man to brush my little opinion aside.

I wasn't meaning to do that at all. It's not your opinion, but just something I've noticed. It just seems more obvious to people who have lived a significant time in both roles. The vibe and feedback I've been getting is that sometimes early transition peeps are a bit more idealistic. Those who have lived a significant period in both roles seem a bit more jaded. That's all.

Having done Women's Studies at university I felt I was fairly aware of the craptacular deal the large majority of women receive at the hands of a male dominated society - but I agree, many people are fairly blind to it. Now that I'm starting to experience some of those things I'd only read or heard about, it's still somewhat surprising despite feeling I was prepared for it!

In the workplace, even when everyone "thought" me to be male, I have always been treated as if I was one of the girls. Right down to the pay offered me to start, and how every idea/suggestion gets talked over by my higher boss even though other managers and team leaders like them. Someone will ask my opinion, and then this guy will say something like "Well, I'd like us to do X", completely ignoring whatever my opinion was. He is almost always wrong and it bites him on the butt, but he keeps doing it, and going to older men in their early 50's for answers, who have far less education and experience than I do even though I'm younger.

Quote from: Ms Grace on April 13, 2014, 07:38:36 PM
Having done Women's Studies at university I felt I was fairly aware of the craptacular deal the large majority of women receive at the hands of a male dominated society - but I agree, many people are fairly blind to it. Now that I'm starting to experience some of those things I'd only read or heard about, it's still somewhat surprising despite feeling I was prepared for it!

Yeah, I really was blind to it. Maybe because I never had some of the truly awful experiences most cis women I know have. I mean, virtually every cis woman I know has been brutally raped and abused. I was a good looking woman, so I got some stuff. But I was a 'tough girl' with a larger build (even when thin), so wasn't as much of a target as some others. But I still saw a lot.

This isn't specifically related, but it haunts me. I worked in a bar and this girl with one eye worked there too. She knew the owner and the owner felt obligated to give her a job. But yeah, she had a patch on her face - not very good for business. She wasn't very nice to me. But for some reason she trusted me enough to give me her mother's phone number. She told me that if she didn't show up for work, to call her mother because she might be bleeding to death on her floor. She was terrified of her boyfriend. He was responsible for her eye and she feared he would kill her. One day she didn't show up for work. In a panic, I called her mother. Everything was ok. Anyway, I don't know I share this or what point I'm making with this story. It just really, really bothered me. She had only one eye. Because of him. And she was still with him!
I think maybe it was stuff like this that really brought home the plight of women.

Quote from: FA on April 13, 2014, 08:03:53 PM
Yeah, I really was blind to it. Maybe because I never had some of the truly awful experiences most cis women I know have. I mean, virtually every cis woman I know has been brutally raped and abused. I was a good looking woman, so I got some stuff. But I was a 'tough girl' with a larger build (even when thin), so wasn't as much of a target as some others. But I still saw a lot.

This isn't specifically related, but it haunts me. I worked in a bar and this girl with one eye worked there too. She knew the owner and the owner felt obligated to give her a job. But yeah, she had a patch on her face - not very good for business. She wasn't very nice to me. But for some reason she trusted me enough to give me her mother's phone number. She told me that if she didn't show up for work, to call her mother because she might be bleeding to death on her floor. She was terrified of her boyfriend. He was responsible for her eye and she feared he would kill her. One day she didn't show up for work. In a panic, I called her mother. Everything was ok. Anyway, I don't know I share this or what point I'm making with this story. It just really, really bothered me. She had only one eye. Because of him. And she was still with him!
I think maybe it was stuff like this that really brought home the plight of women.

Christ, that's messed up.

I wouldn't say that every woman I know has been raped or abused, but a lot that I know have been. People think it's this horribly uncommon thing but it really isn't. That said though, many young boys are sexually abused as well, even if not at the same rate as young girls.

Quote from: birkin on April 13, 2014, 08:31:50 PM

Quote from: FA on April 13, 2014, 08:03:53 PM
Yeah, I really was blind to it. Maybe because I never had some of the truly awful experiences most cis women I know have. I mean, virtually every cis woman I know has been brutally raped and abused. I was a good looking woman, so I got some stuff. But I was a 'tough girl' with a larger build (even when thin), so wasn't as much of a target as some others. But I still saw a lot.

This isn't specifically related, but it haunts me. I worked in a bar and this girl with one eye worked there too. She knew the owner and the owner felt obligated to give her a job. But yeah, she had a patch on her face - not very good for business. She wasn't very nice to me. But for some reason she trusted me enough to give me her mother's phone number. She told me that if she didn't show up for work, to call her mother because she might be bleeding to death on her floor. She was terrified of her boyfriend. He was responsible for her eye and she feared he would kill her. One day she didn't show up for work. In a panic, I called her mother. Everything was ok. Anyway, I don't know I share this or what point I'm making with this story. It just really, really bothered me. She had only one eye. Because of him. And she was still with him!
I think maybe it was stuff like this that really brought home the plight of women.

Christ, that's messed up.

I wouldn't say that every woman I know has been raped or abused, but a lot that I know have been. People think it's this horribly uncommon thing but it really isn't. That said though, many young boys are sexually abused as well, even if not at the same rate as young girls.

Oh I know. I have male family members who were sexually abused as children. After a certain age though, if the guy manages to stay out of prison, it's relatively rare. (And even then, most guys don't get raped in prison).
I was just saying a lot of females I know suffered much more than me.

Quote from: FA on April 13, 2014, 08:57:23 PM
Christ, that's messed up.

I wouldn't say that every woman I know has been raped or abused, but a lot that I know have been. People think it's this horribly uncommon thing but it really isn't. That said though, many young boys are sexually abused as well, even if not at the same rate as young girls.


Oh I know. I have male family members who were sexually abused as children. After a certain age though, if the guy manages to stay out of prison, it's really rare. (And even then, most guys don't get raped in prison).
I was just saying a lot of females I know suffered much more than me.

Oh, I wasn't disputing what you were saying. The males being abused was more of a side thought (in this particular discussion) tbh. I feel fortunate in that while I have had some "close calls" I've never experienced things that so many other females I know have.

Quote from: birkin on April 13, 2014, 09:03:10 PM

Quote from: FA on April 13, 2014, 08:57:23 PM
Christ, that's messed up.

I wouldn't say that every woman I know has been raped or abused, but a lot that I know have been. People think it's this horribly uncommon thing but it really isn't. That said though, many young boys are sexually abused as well, even if not at the same rate as young girls.


Oh I know. I have male family members who were sexually abused as children. After a certain age though, if the guy manages to stay out of prison, it's really rare. (And even then, most guys don't get raped in prison).
I was just saying a lot of females I know suffered much more than me.

Oh, I wasn't disputing what you were saying. The males being abused was more of a side thought (in this particular discussion) tbh. I feel fortunate in that while I have had some "close calls" I've never experienced things that so many other females I know have.

Me too. If I could take the place of my sisters or my cousin, or so many other females I've known, I would. 

Ugh... I wish they knew or cared how much damage they inflict. How f-ed up it feels. To have lost your virginity before you even knew what that word meant. How fundamentally that changes the way you view yourself. And other people.

And it always surprised me how quickly other girls will open up to me about having been raped. I just always viewed it as this thing you never talk about but it's so casually and long accepted as a hazard of being a woman that it's just disgusting. Honestly as mature as I try to be I still think sex is disgusting and i wish there was no gender and no sex.

Quote from: Tori on April 13, 2014, 06:46:12 PM
If you have something intelligent to add, the only dumb thing would be not to share it.

I would rather be liked than say something intelligent, that will always be true.  And it is subtle, like I never feel like I'm being disliked for saying anything, but that there is just this quiet cooling toward me- and not always, but often enough to make me not want to risk having it happen.  That it is not overt is not a good thing btw.  The subtlety makes it all the more insidious.

Quote from: FA on April 13, 2014, 09:43:38 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean to derail the thread. As you have probably guessed from my other posts, I'm angry. I'm angry about how women are treated. I'm angry about what my sisters and my cousin went through. If my little sisters (teenage) had been my little brothers, would they have been raped at the mall? Doubtful. I mean, I'm not saying it never happened that a 15 and 12 year old boy were raped at the mall. But, it's less likely. My cousin as a teen at a party. Again, I'm not saying a teen guy was never raped at a party, but it's a lot less likely.

I'm pissed. I'm pissed cause I wasn't there. And I'm pissed at a culture that perpetuates this. A culture that blames women so that most never report a sexual assault. And a culture that socializes young men into seeing women as objects. All of these men who raped my sisters and cousin probably didn't realize or didn't care - because they are so caught up in a culture where women are nothing. Objects. These ads and things dehumanize women so that a guy doesn't notice or care that a woman is saying no. Or afraid. Or in pain.

And it's not just the recognizable douchebags. It's the good frat boy that everyone looks up to. The guy everyone loves. The popular guy. He forced himself on my cousin and no one believes or cares. If I knew who he was, I would kill him. She never told me.

I don't feel you derailed the topic at all.  These things all go together.  I am so sorry for all the horrible things that you've dealt with.  I wish there was something I could actually do .