Quote from: riversong on April 09, 2014, 09:19:42 PM
So, I've been thinking about how to respond when I get "sirred" (I know I'm not full time and am still presenting as male, but I still don't like being called "sir").

(Bolding by me for emphasis)

You're presenting as male and you apparently expect people to magically know that you prefer female pronouns? It's not out of any kind of malice, if you look male, then expect people to use male pronouns. Instead of acting like a passive-agressive jerk, you could simply inform the 'offensive' person (who has no idea they're offending you) that you would like them to use a different pronoun.

Eh, Paula said it better than me, so yeah, what she said!

Quote from: TiffanyT on April 10, 2014, 01:19:49 AM
If op isn't presenting female, why the overreaction to being sirred? I called a teacher mam and she insisted on being called spam. It made it ridiculous to call her anything but her name. I found it a lot more disarming.

The thing is though, by definition it's not an overreaction. The reaction is the same as the initial action (calling someone out of their gender).

Quote(Bolding by me for emphasis)

You're presenting as male and you apparently expect people to magically know that you prefer female pronouns? It's not out of any kind of malice, if you look male, then expect people to use male pronouns. Instead of acting like a passive-agressive jerk, you could simply inform the 'offensive' person (who has no idea they're offending you) that you would like them to use a different pronoun.

Eh, Paula said it better than me, so yeah, what she said!

I guess I should have re-phrased. I've been told I'm a fairly androgynous looking person and while I don't dress in distinctly feminine clothing, there's also nothing particularly masculine about the way I dress either (just jeans, a t-shirt, and tennis shoes usually). So I'm not personally aware of what it is that's causing them to read me as male. If I were aware of what it is, then I would completely understand why they made the mistake and wouldn't respond the way I do.

Quote from: riversong on April 10, 2014, 09:06:50 AM
I guess I should have re-phrased. I've been told I'm a fairly androgynous looking person and while I don't dress in distinctly feminine clothing, there's also nothing particularly masculine about the way I dress either (just jeans, a t-shirt, and tennis shoes usually). So I'm not personally aware of what it is that's causing them to read me as male. If I were aware of what it is, then I would completely understand why they made the mistake and wouldn't respond the way I do.

Okay, now this is reasonable. I suspect that for most people the default thought process seems to be:

Is the person I am about to address obviously (ie do they have breasts and/or a general feminine look/voice) female?

Yes: Use female pronouns
No: Use male pronouns

If you're andro in appearance then I would imagine that most people will default to male pronouns. Also because asking a person what pronouns they prefer just isn't something that would occur to the average cis-person.

All I can really suggest, other than simply tolerating it unless/until you decide to present as female, is asking supportive friends for suggestions since they would have a better idea of your mannerisms etc. If you're like me and don't have friends, then I don't know what else to suggest other than just putting up with it until you're ready to present as female.

Quote from: Marina mtf on April 10, 2014, 06:46:54 AM
People usually are not rude, they simply react to what they see...

to make an example I was one day at the market and cheese seller told me:

"would you like to taste our gorgonzola (an Italian cheese) sir?"

I was presenting as andro, with pants, so it was not a big deal..., I did not
correct him, I was not totally en femme.

...

two weeks later I went to the same store in a skirt and the SAME person told me:

"excuse me, ma'am, may you taste our Parmesan?"

Did he remember me? Don't know... in any case please consider that until starting HRT our body is male,
we smell male, we irradiate male pheromones, essentially we cross dress so it is very rare to pass in all occasions.

I want to go to that store for the free cheese!

Aaaaannnnd the entire Monty Python 'Cheese Shop' skit just ran through my head....LOL!

Still, if you're wearing androgynous clothes, you're leaving the door wide open for people to gender you male. And if your appearance is androgynous too, you've got to expect that some people aren't going to be able to tell, and therefore they're going to make mistakes.

It's hard when some people are gendering you female while others are still gendering you male. I know. You want to be gendered female all the time. But you've got to give people clues if you expect to be gendered correctly all the time. When I was at this stage myself, and complaining about people gendering me male, I realized, I was still wearing a large unfitted jacket, men's shoes, and men's pants. So even though I believed that my appearance was more female than male, or at least androgynous, and I felt like I should be gendered female all the time, was the fault of me being gendered male really theirs for misreading my appearance, or was it mine for dressing in clothes that left the option of gendering me male wide open?

Save the hatred for people who are actually disrespecting you, gendering you male while you're actively trying to present as female. Other times, people can't be expected to read your mind.

I was watching this video on YouTube about misgendering.

I just couldn't help but notice the brutal comments (lonebard's).
https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=qrR8ZMDpSvk

"What a rambling f******g mess you are. So because you have long hair and wear an earing someone in a coffee shop should know your gender? And if they don't address you by the "correct" gender they are making a decision to negate you as a human being? How about you consider the fact that you might look, to them, like a man.

I get mistaken for a woman on the phone by random people fairly often. Guess what!!! My voice is a bit high and feminine. Do I think every person who call's me a woman on the phone is doing it on purpose? OH OF COURSE I DO BECAUSE I HAVE A MENTAL ILLNESS AND EVERYONE IS ATTACKING ME WAHHHHHHHH WAHHHHHHHH Wahhhhhh"

As androgynous as I currently am, I'd still have to side with some of the negative comments, although begrudgingly.

As long as I'm dressed as female I get ma'amed. The only rare exception is sometimes a cashier isn't looking directly at me putting money away or something from the previous customer and will just see me out of the corner of their eye (a 6'7" person that assume male just going by height.) They will say without looking up, can I help you sir? Then look up in embarrassment and apologize and correct themselves with a ma'am. I don't get upset as long as they correct themselves and every time that has happened they have. Because I'm so tall I do see people sometimes looking for an Adam's Apple, which fortunately doesn't show at all. (I got lucky there.)

I'm full time so I'm always dressed and presenting female. Once a while ago I was misgendered in a Doctors office (gastroentologist). but it wasn't the lady's fault because she was looking at a piece of paper with my name on it and my gender as male. When she looked up and saw me she immediately apologized but I told her it was OK and my fault for not having my gender changed on my ID yet.

My point is you can't fault people for making honest mistakes. Hopefully I'll get my letter to have my gender changed on the 22nd, YaY!

Great post! It actually made me laugh. Sounds so simple and it may just be foolproof. I will give this a try and let you know.

I get called sir all the time, but I present as male . My problem is that I've lived in a downtown area for the past 15 years . It's a small town so a lot of the same people walk around the area. the store clerks all know me. My face is changing , not fast enough for me, but people all know me as male so even if I gaining feminine facial qualities they still sir me. I do hate it with a passion, the more so each day longer on HRT. It's no ones fault though because I've only told one of the people I see all the time that I'm transgender. He just calls me by my first name.

Personally, I haven't been sirred yet - just being able to overhear comments from people in the surroundings, whispers like "that's a MAN" or "i think that's a dude", etc. And occasionally snickers. Those are the most hurtful. Those make me want to go anywhere from either calling them out for whatever is 'wrong' with them - their size, lack of hair, lack of attractiveness, to going full Carrie on the a**holes...

Quote from: KelsieJ on April 13, 2014, 08:11:46 PM
Personally, I haven't been sirred yet - just being able to overhear comments from people in the surroundings, whispers like "that's a MAN" or "i think that's a dude", etc. And occasionally snickers. Those are the most hurtful. Those make me want to go anywhere from either calling them out for their size, lack of hair, lack of attractiveness, to going full Carrie on the ->-bleeped-<-s...

I'm so sorry you've had to go through that. When I owned property in a certain part of West Virginia comments like that were common among ignoramuses. Comments like yours make me glad I'm deaf in one ear. I think your much prettier and look more female than I, at least from what I can see in your Avatar, and I can just imagine what people might be saying behind my back.

My mom often says:

"What others think of you is none of your business."

Quote from: Tori on April 14, 2014, 04:03:18 AM
My mom often says:

"What others think of you is none of your business."

You have a wise Mom Tori.

Quote from: Allyda
I'm so sorry you've had to go through that. When I owned property in a certain part of West Virginia comments like that were common among ignoramuses. Comments like yours make me glad I'm deaf in one ear. I think your much prettier and look more female than I, at least from what I can see in your Avatar, and I can just imagine what people might be saying behind my back.

I guess it must be a southern thing......being as I'm in the "northernmost southern state" :/
I was messing around in the car when I took the avatar pic, it's just at the 'right' angle to make me look better which is why i used it.

Quote from: KelsieJ on April 14, 2014, 09:28:16 PM
I guess it must be a southern thing......being as I'm in the "northernmost southern state" :/
I was messing around in the car when I took the avatar pic, it's just at the 'right' angle to make me look better which is why i used it.

Nope, I have sort of a similar problem in NY.  I hear snickers and get smiled at quite often.  Usually, it's not aything hostile and I suppose I should take the fact that this happens in boy mode as a compliment more than anything, but it hurts even if my male appearance isn't convincing.  It hurts so damn much to be seen as a walking joke.  Honestly, I just want to hide and I avoid going anywhere outside of work and therapy because of it.  I don't live life or do anything.  The whole middle andro stage totally sucks and I'm sick of it.  In any case, sorry to be a downer, but no matter where you are there are problems.  I guess that's what I wanted to say.

Quote from: learningtolive
Nope, I have sort of a similar problem in NY.  I hear snickers and get smiled at quite often.  Usually, it's not aything hostile and I suppose I should take the fact that this happens in boy mode as a compliment more than anything, but it hurts even if my male appearance isn't convincing.  It hurts so damn much to be seen as a walking joke.  Honestly, I just want to hide and I avoid going anywhere outside of work and therapy because of it.  I don't live life or do anything.  The whole middle andro stage totally sucks and I'm sick of it.  In any case, sorry to be a downer, but no matter where you are there are problems.  I guess that's what I wanted to say.

No, you're not a Debbie Downer. I'm right there with you, hon. You summed it up quite well - I think I'd rather be sirred then treated like a joke. Apart from one place, I don't want to go out as me anywhere anymore. I stay at home or my gf's house watching Netflix or watching cat cams cause I can't have pets here.


Hugs
Kelsie

Quote from: learningtolive on April 14, 2014, 09:43:44 PM
Nope, I have sort of a similar problem in NY.  I hear snickers and get smiled at quite often.  Usually, it's not aything hostile and I suppose I should take the fact that this happens in boy mode as a compliment more than anything, but it hurts even if my male appearance isn't convincing.  It hurts so damn much to be seen as a walking joke.  Honestly, I just want to hide and I avoid going anywhere outside of work and therapy because of it.  I don't live life or do anything.  The whole middle andro stage totally sucks and I'm sick of it.  In any case, sorry to be a downer, but no matter where you are there are problems.  I guess that's what I wanted to say.

Ι thought I was being seen as a walking joke too in this middle andro stage 
until I actually started doing things with others and realised that they respect me so much more than before, people respect honesty
you re being true to yourself and try to move forward,they appreciate that more than we think

Well Ive said it before and im gonna say it again
people are nicer than they seem...

Still its hard sometimes , I usually dont care about looks and stuff but it gets annoying...
its all about the attitude
We need to accept that we are different(at least for a period of time) and its only natural for the normal ones to stare at us and stuff...
But as I said , no matter how you look they will always be people who ll care for you , if you search for them that is...

Quote from: learningtolive on April 14, 2014, 09:43:44 PM
Nope, I have sort of a similar problem in NY.  I hear snickers and get smiled at quite often.  Usually, it's not aything hostile and I suppose I should take the fact that this happens in boy mode as a compliment more than anything, but it hurts even if my male appearance isn't convincing.  It hurts so damn much to be seen as a walking joke.  Honestly, I just want to hide and I avoid going anywhere outside of work and therapy because of it.  I don't live life or do anything.  The whole middle andro stage totally sucks and I'm sick of it.  In any case, sorry to be a downer, but no matter where you are there are problems.  I guess that's what I wanted to say.

Yeah... that in-between stage sucks however you try to frame it. The only way to get through it is to just grit your teeth, put up with the inevitable stares and misgenderings, and try to take it as a sign that you really are starting to get there.

If you ask me, this is why we need to fight to help get rid of this rigid gender binary... because in-transition trans people, who don't yet neatly fit in to one side or the other, basically have to put up with months and months and months of feeling like we have no place in society. We've got to work on making the world a friendlier place for those who are somewhere in the middle. So that those who are androgynous, or gender-nonconforming, or in-transition trans people, don't feel so stigmatized all the time.