So, when does presenting as female begin and presenting as male end? I got my "carry" letter (I guess that's the right term) and it opens up a lot of questions and a lot of grey areas, especially since I haven't made the transition at work yet.

For example, I just drove from St. Louis to Columbus (OH) wearing women's clothes (albeit unisex clothes). Is that presenting as female?

I shaved, but didn't wear make up so you could still see my beard. Does this disqualify me? What about women who have facial hair themselves?

I wasn't wearing a wig. Does this disqualify me? I have more hair than some women I know.

I'm only just at an A cup. Does that disqualify me? What about other women who are small in cup size?

If I go with how I think people perceive me, I'm probably sunk for a while because I'll always think I'm being made or clocked. The other night I was definitely out as Jane but was still hesitant to use the restroom because of possible perceptions.

See where I'm getting at? This might be a good time to apply the "reasonable person" rule but when it comes to transgendered, what is a "reasonable person"? Is it contextual? For example, patrons at a Starbucks in a college town might have a different "reasonable person" standard than patrons at a diner in a small town.

Lots of questions...not really sure there are ready answers.

Jane

Ι ve said this before...

it doesnt work like this
male>female

it works like this

male>masculine androgynous>androgynous>feminine androgynous>female

Good Morning (or Evening)
There are no rules, except to be safe.  If you feel feminine, act, and smile like a woman, then you are presenting as one.  Hair, face, make-up are secondary.  For months and years many people on the outside just thought, and think, I was/am gay or queer.  For the longest time I lived a compartmentalized life.  Boy here, girl there and slowly that has merged into just being me.  Some see me as male because that is what they are used to, and expect.  Most see me as female because - well because I am. 
I mention safety because I am for the first time in my life aware that there are people who misunderstand or hate us and have harmful intent. So I am aware of my surroundings more, and a bit more cautious about where I go alone.  I think that the process of transition is exactly that - an intermediate stage, one of self doubt, confusion, and insecurity. 

I'm twenty months into HRT and most of my beard has been electrocuted away.  Does that make me more female than before?  Nope, It just makes me more consistent. 

Good luck, it gets easier and better.

Julie

Quote from: FalsePrincess on April 14, 2014, 07:32:48 AM
it works like this
male>masculine androgynous>androgynous>feminine androgynous>female

I somewhat have to agree here. I also don't think one qualifies or disqualifies, rather it is more self acceptance. While I am still very much in the closet for now I am just beginning to accept my true self. I think it is a process really more than anything else. Of course we all have those "What If" moments and then fall back to the mask. Let's face it, this is not easy and perhaps we will never fit in socially. But being true to ones self is and has to be the most important aspect.

Thanks! This was helpful.And it does make sense to build a comfort level, especially since I've just started to go out in my female persona. I definitely think I'm using the buddy system at the beginning!

Jane

Quote from: FalsePrincess on April 14, 2014, 07:32:48 AM
Ι ve said this before...

it doesnt work like this
male>female

it works like this

male>masculine androgynous>androgynous>feminine androgynous>female

I don't understand what you are saying.

I am not out yet at work so I live a double life right now. For me it is important to be accepted as the gender that I am presenting as. Guy mode is obviously easier, girl mode takes a lot more care and time to have that assurance that the world is seeing a female. It is a balancing act on a high wire, and it messes with my mind having to remember who I am presenting as at any given moment and adjusting myself accordingly.

Hello JaneNiicole,
I definitely understand how nerve wracking this can be, but it is MOST important to do what feels comfortable for YOU and at your own pace. Forcing yourself into an uncomfortable position is no better than living pre transition phase.  Of course you'll push yourself to present femme, but don't let anyone push you into it. Trying new things is fun (and scary) but you'll know when you are ready to try those things.

Summary, be yourself and go at your own pace, after all, you are the one you need to make happy.

Quote from: mac1 on April 14, 2014, 11:44:32 AM
I don't understand what you are saying.

Im saying that the majority of us has to go through the androgynous stage while making the transition from male to female...
someone who is early in transition should keep that in mind...

I don't even know where my girl mode ends and my boy mode begin. I wear girl jeans and a girl jacket and that is boy mode to me. I guess where I draw the line is if I put on make up, but even then I might put on some bb cream and go out in boy mode. I just do whatever to be honest. Here is a picture of my boy mode. Just a little bb cream and a girls jacket. I think i am wearing a girl top too now that I think of it because the buttons are on the left.

Quote from: FalsePrincess on April 14, 2014, 07:32:48 AM
Ι ve said this before...

it doesnt work like this
male>female

it works like this

male>masculine androgynous>androgynous>feminine androgynous>female

I'm quoting this reply I did from another thread.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163028.msg1401386.html#msg1401386

"I believe not dressing and presenting more female than my physical passability merits is my one saving grace. Like, I am dressing appropriate to my-level and keeping my appearance from unwittingly asking to have peoples perceptions challenged and subsequent clocking (I like to say being "busted" lol)

I think this is vitally important in the trans world IMO."

and

"Confidence is one thing, but appearing confident when presenting as a clown is another."

In other words, if you show any masculinity, you're going to get read. No matter how fem you are dressed.

I don't know does it really  matter. If your trying to get a letter for srs  I think that more involves  document changes and coming out at work. who knows how you live any way. If it's just for your own perception do what your comfortable with. I live in a college town where the girls wear leggings with short skirts . I'm not about to attempt a short skirt, but I know one member looks great in mini skirts.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 14, 2014, 02:35:50 PM
I'm quoting this reply I did from another thread.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163028.msg1401386.html#msg1401386

"I believe not dressing and presenting more female than my physical passability merits is my one saving grace. Like, I am dressing appropriate to my-level and keeping my appearance from unwittingly asking to have peoples perceptions challenged and subsequent clocking (I like to say being "busted" lol)

I think this is vitally important in the trans world IMO."

and

"Confidence is one thing, but appearing confident when presenting as a clown is another."

In other words, if you show any masculinity, you're going to get read. No matter how fem you are dressed.

I agree with this
Also , by doing that I feel more secure and comfortable at the same time,gaining knowledge and experience every day...

and its not as bad as it may sound to some...
how you re gonna gender an androgynous person depends on your own views anyways , so you may even pass at some occasions...

To be honest, this is kinda the easy mode for transitioning
you go with the flow and patiently wait for things to change

The hard mode would be to be a boy 24/7 and a random day start full time as a girl,
I tried it , I failed it mainly due to stress of getting cloced and stuff...

So yeah at the end just do what makes you feel comfortable,
hell if you still wanna wear only male clothes do it, we re not in a hurry here...
Just dont force yourself, its good to have some experiences as a girl but nobody is gonna judge you if you re not ready yet

Personally, Ive said it before (-_-)
I dont believe in suddenly going FT ,at least at my age...
no matter what a girl wears she will aalways get gendered female
Im doing some things (hormones, surgeries ,kinda practicing my mannerisms) and waiting for the day I would leave the house and nobody will stare at me while getting gendered female always ,,,thats my idea of going full time , when that randomly happens my transition will be over.

^^^ Some are content to be deluded about their passing, relying on confidence, and then wonder why their confidence isn't carrying them as far as they'd like when the reactions seem negative.

Let's be honest - if you don't pass yet still present overtly female, then this is tantamount to insulting peoples intelligence. You're literally trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. Yes just by standing there showing stocking seams yet having a masculine face. You are ASKING for people to accept that challenge and they WILL read you and probably retaliate with a roll of the eyes or outright violence.

We bring a lot of this LGBT prejudice and stereotypes onto ourselves.

Quote from: HoneyBunny on April 14, 2014, 01:43:02 PM
I don't even know where my girl mode ends and my boy mode begin. I wear girl jeans and a girl jacket and that is boy mode to me. I guess where I draw the line is if I put on make up, but even then I might put on some bb cream and go out in boy mode. I just do whatever to be honest. Here is a picture of my boy mode. Just a little bb cream and a girls jacket. I think i am wearing a girl top too now that I think of it because the buttons are on the left.

HUBBA HUBBA lol You are gorgeous HoneyBunny!

Its not any one thing.

Its the package.

That's a really interesting question.  Honestly, I'm not sure.  What I call boy mode may not be a masculine presetation at all.  In fact, it's not, though I don't think I pass as female.  I'm always wondering what other people see.  And I seem to get those smiles and looks that say I'm not convincing people as a male anymore, but I'm still feeling really insecure about going out as female.  I guess I'm more andro than anything at this point.

All in all, I think this topic is more philosophical than anything.  Female or male presentation may mean different things to different people.  For example, a girl could wear a jersey and pass as female while a man could wear the same thing and pass as male.  What really makes someone female or male in other people's eyes.  I guess it's a lot more than just simple clothing and presentation.  It's an overall vibe and look.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 14, 2014, 06:46:34 PM
All in all, I think this topic is more philosophical than anything.  Female or male presentation may mean different things to different people.  For example, a girl could wear a jersey and pass as female while a man could wear the same thing and pass as male.  What really makes someone female or male in other people's eyes.  I guess it's a lot more than just simple clothing and presentation.  It's an overall vibe and look.

That's what I was getting at...lots of fuzzy areas. What prompted the question was about me driving back from Columbus to St Louis in female mode which would mean I'd have to use restrooms along the way (it's a 7 hours drive). I decided not to push it and give it more time.

Jane

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on April 14, 2014, 07:56:16 PM
That's what I was getting at...lots of fuzzy areas. What prompted the question was about me driving back from Columbus to St Louis in female mode which would mean I'd have to use restrooms along the way (it's a 7 hours drive). I decided not to push it and give it more time.

Jane

That is an area where women have a definite advantage over men. Women (even presenting as women) can use the men's restroom without fear of recourse.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 14, 2014, 02:35:50 PM
"I believe not dressing and presenting more female than my physical passability merits is my one saving grace.

For me it's like a thin edge between exiting from the comfort zone without going too much farther.

Usually an andro presentation is "good" because we cannot get clocked, if people "sir" us then it is OK,
we were andro. If sometimes we get a "ma'am" it is OK, we thank you internally and pass by.

But being TS is exiting from the comfort zone. Without doing a clown, of course. imho.